I just recently downloaded a MOTS demo and I saw a mat I thought would go great with mi JK level. My question, Am I allowed to take mats from MOTS and put it in JK?
I think the answer will be no, but I just want to make sure.

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Why must we live only to die?

According to LEC and the opinion here at Massassi, I understand that one can NOT take MOTS content and use in JK. On the other hand, it is allowable to use anything from JK in MOTS because you must own JK in order to own MOTS.

What Sylvicolus said is correct.

jk -> mots
mots -> jk

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"Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand."
Have Lightsaber Will Travel

Thanks for the help, I thought that's what the answer would be.


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Why must we live only to die?

but if it's for your own purposes, go ahead with mots->jediknight anyways. it's a dated game, so who's going to kill you for it?

Um... Massassi has a policy that they wont post jk games with mots elements. If you try to do so anyway, youll probably end up getting banned.

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You underestimate the power of the dark side...

The_Lost_One - encouraging illegal activity is seriously frowned upon here. Stop that, or I will.

Massassi or any other reputable JK site won't post levels with illegal content.

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"Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand."
Have Lightsaber Will Travel

Sure, always follow the rules. I agree. But, why is it so important that Mots stuff not be moved into Jk? I mean they're both LEC games, why only one way? And, why not just outlaw any fooling around with the program if you outlaw that?

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Coruscant has lovely sunsets....

The reason you can move Mots stuff to JK is because Mots is an addon that can only be gotten by purchasing JK. BUT you could purchase JK without MOTS so you can't move stuff from MOTS to JK legally because then someone with only JK would get "illegal" access to MOTS content. Yes, it's a bit silly but "it's da law, pardner."

X-Wing Alliance is a LEC game too. Does that mean it's legal to rip starship models out of the game and convert them to 3do's to use in JK? Of course not. Not everyone who's got JK has XWA, so they would be getting those files illegally. Same goes for JK and MotS.

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"Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand."
Have Lightsaber Will Travel

Its theoretically possible that some one could take the MOTS levels and convert them to JK levels, and then release them on the net. That would mean people could download MOTS for free without ever having to buy the game. Thats why MOTS components aren't allowed in JK.

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You underestimate the power of the dark side...

let me rephrase my answer:

Yes, it's ok, but only if it's on your computer and you don't distribute it in any electronic form or give it to someone.

Technically, it is still illegal.. even if you never release it and it's for your own purposes. Smoking marijuana in your home is still illegal, nothing different than smoking it in the street..

I agree with Massassi on supporting no MotS>JK and JK>MotS. It's simple legal logic in a legal logic culture. However!!! If they support this, then they need to delete all BFP and any skins using capes, extended ponytails, or any 3dos using qualities of MotS 3dos for JK use. And that's a lot of skins/lvls. No one wants to break rules do they?

I spend way too much time going through JK and MotS 3dos and have found no record of any caped torsos in the JK 3dos. So how did we get these caped torso 3dos for JK? Just a simple question. I'm not trying to break rules or stomp on other ppls feet. Just trying to make sense of "what is editing" or "your own" and what is copyright infringment.

In an age of technology & science, nothing is new. We just haven't proven it yet. :-)

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-=/[ÐARKØz]\=-

It depends on how the models got those capes/ponytails/etc. It doesn't have to do with "mots qualities" - you can't copyright a "quality". If they took the models directly from MotS and modified them, that would be illegal. If they took a JK model or started from scratch and added these features, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I suggest you take a look at the tutorial here at Massassi that covers how to add a ponytail to a model.

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"Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand."
Have Lightsaber Will Travel

I don't think converting MOTS stuff for use in JK is all that illegal, but rules are rules so we can't, even if everybody thinks its lame.

I would, however, if I was Brian or MikeC or anyone here at Massassi, send a email a LEC about JK and MOTS. These games are DATED, hell I saw a JK+MOTS package deal at my girlfriend's school store for 10$ CANADIAN. They don't care about JK anymore. Let's ask them if they'd be willing to release the whole engine and game related stuff as freeware for anyone to use. I mean, nobody is gonna license the engine to create their own game nowadays, hell nobody ever wanted to from the beggining, they all got Q2 engine.

Ok, so LEC are pretty uncooperative about anything, but I still think its worth a try.

Hell no they won't do it. They just rereleased the game so they definately aren't going to make it open source any time in the near future. I don't think LEC has done that with any of their games no matter how old or out of circulation.

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"Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand."
Have Lightsaber Will Travel

[This message has been edited by MikeC (edited May 14, 2001).]

Is it ok to make your own jk mat that is similar to the mots mat that you wanted to use?

The first two Monkey Island games are now freeware.

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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... now all those moments will be lost... in time... like tears in the rain...

I think I have a solution to your problem of wanting to use MotS elements in your level...

Buy MotS!!!

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Sith Temple -- Website
Strike Force!
The Continuing Adventures of Mara Jade

I know, I'm in the process of looking for it. You can't find it easily in Hays Kansas

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Why must we live only to die?

[This message has been edited by Stormtrooper (edited May 15, 2001).]

Have you tried looking for it here.

I don't see anything wrong with creating a texture from scratch that is similar the one from MotS. Just to be on the safe side I would make it slightly differnt than the original.

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"Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand."
Have Lightsaber Will Travel

Yeah I've looked there, but it's hard to buy off internet when you dont have a credit card or your only 13 years old.

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Why must we live only to die?

Hey, when I was your age we didn't have an internet.

And we had to walk 5 miles to school in 12 inches of snow... ya, that's the ticket.

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"Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand."
Have Lightsaber Will Travel

[This message has been edited by MikeC (edited May 15, 2001).]

I dont see the problem with using mots stuff in jk, but because of the rules at massassi nad other jk sites, i wouldnt use mots stuff in jk levels.

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Forget years of training and commitment!
I found a lightsaber in a garage and that makes me a Jedi! - DCM JK Special Edition

Regardless of whether MotS components are allowed in JK or not this would still be a breach of rules as it is illegal to dissassemble the LEC software. Which means the many Canyon Oasis Mods here are against the law even though "encouraging illegal activity is seriously frowned upon here".

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Jedi Shopping Mall

but you could use a very very similar mat right as long as its not excact right?
if so take the mat open it in mm start a new mat in anoither mm make it similar and just make sure 10% is different and tyour should be clear if my understanding of copyright is correct

I just reread the LEC terms concerning JK levels. No where does it say that add on levels cannot be based off of original LEC levels.

Also, If you read closely, LEC is allowed to use any add on levels for their own profit without giving you any royalties or credit.

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You underestimate the power of the dark side...

Read it again DSettahr

Which means using conman to extract the Canyon Oasis jkl is against the rules.

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Jedi Shopping Mall

Hmm... I was reading the readme file that you include with levels. Either the version i was reading was edited, or its listed someplace else.

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You underestimate the power of the dark side...

Okay, I don't wanna piss the staff at Massassi Temple in any way now, and please don't get me wrong on what im about to say BUT, the policy of frowning upon anything illegal has been breached enough times that releasing the whole MotS cd in here as a JK mod wouldn't do any more harm that whats already done... Just look at these interesting facts (you can all turn your MotS manuals to page 37 and follow with me)

1- it is clearly stated that "[you may not]...(4) reverse engineer, decompile or dissassemble the Software" which means, as stated by a previous user that all the revamped Canyon Oasis levels released here terminates the license to owning in all legality Jedi Knight.

2- it is again clearly stated that " (3) New Levels must not include any illegal, scandalous, illicit, defamatory, libelous, or objectionable material (as may be determined by LEC in its sole discretion), or any material that infringes any trademarks, copyrights, protected works, publicity, proprietary, or other rights of any third party or of LEC." ... Which means all of the James Bond TC, Quake TC, Watchamacallit TC and all are illegal here and terminates your license of ownership. Furthermore, it also renders illegal such things as Invasion, Domination (damn, im curently making a Domination level pack!) or any other modes of play that are considered intellectual property of the game devellopers that have released them first...

3- this is my favorite one, get this... "(4) New levels may not include any LEC sound effects or music or portions thereof." .. which pretty much says that every level released here is illegal since they all use the LEC sound fx library...

4- and the very awesome utmost peak of ultimate laughing matter is : "(1) New levels must work only with the retail version of the Software, and may not work with any demo or OEM versions of the Software." .. and we all know that an OEM version version is just a retail version without the box, manuals and warranty. Plus, a friend of mine has an OEM version of the game that came with some hardware he bought, and it can run every one of the levels on this site. So again, all the levels here at Massassi are, from any point of view, completely illegal.


There.. so all in all, in my humblest of opinion, since every JK related site has been visited over the past by people from LEC (think of Yves Derutier for one..) and that no one made a single legal move against anyone of the grossly illegal levels found everywhere, I quite profoundly doubt that now, a good number of years since the original release of the game, that LEC is gonna come here and sue the hell out of everyone that made a level in the past 3-4 years...

So all in all, I don't think, IMHO, that using MotS stuff in JK should be frowned upon here.

Gah, do you even know what 'software' is? When they say to decompile/disassemble they're talking about the game exe...

Also, the level gobs to not contain the sound effects, they use them from the res2.gob. That is not illegal.

You are very uninformed, I suggest you don't go on like this.
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Together we stand.
Divided we fall.

[This message has been edited by Aglar (edited May 18, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Aglar (edited May 18, 2001).]

Aglar: Man, are you in any way familliar with legal documents? Each time I quoted from the manual I used "the Software" with a capital "S" and not only "the software"... Being fairly used to using legal documents in my line of work I thought it was self explanatory that a capital "S" meant it was not the same word as simply "software" but I realised this might have not been interpreted as such by others... so here, quoted directly from the manual :

"The software, artwork, music, and other components included in this computer program (the "Software") are copyright property of Lucasarts Entertainment Company LLC and its licensors (collectively known as "LEC")."

And as far as I know, every portion of data used by JK/MotS, with the exception of the music stored in CDA format, is compiled in .GOB/.GOO. Which means its illegal for us to open the file to extract anything from it as stated in the manual.

In any case, its not all that important since the license agreement has been breached time and again over the past years and no legal actions were taken by LEC to put an end to any of this. I think both parties (that would be us and LEC) just have to use a bit of common sense. Sure porting the whole MotS cd to JK would be highly illegal and unintelligent. But importing a few mats or sounds should not be considered illicit activity if the read-me file of the new level clearly indicated that these textures/sounds/other are not to be extracted and used by someone having no legal license to MotS, (ie not owning it).

And please, I did not insult anyone or tell anyone what to do. So please refrain from telling people they are uninformed without good justification and tell them to stop "going on like that". Its just plain insulting.


[This message has been edited by BladeSinger (edited May 18, 2001).]

It may be that you are correct about modification of JKLs, I'll give you that point for the moment. But I still stand by the fact that because the level gobs do not contain the sounds that is not a breach of contract.

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Together we stand.
Divided we fall.

That would depend on who has the best lawyers, LEC or the one getting sued by LEC The manual states that we cannot use any sound FX or music from the game. While I agree that the Bryar Pistol sound is just part of the game and can't be taken out without breaching 91237896 clauses in the license agreement, LEC would probably present this argument: setting up a switch to open a door would result in a breach of license. You put the switch on the wall, you then use a Cog from the game, which in order to be used has to be read from the res2.gob file by JED. The res2.gob file is a multitude of files compiled together in a proprietaty format. Breach number one has been made since Jed had to decompile the Gob in order to read whats in it. Then you select a sound for the switch, you place the cog, and double click on the sound tab, it takes you to a window that not only has decompile Hires.gob in order to read the files included but also enables you to choose and use a sound from the JK sound library.

The defendant of course would have your argument by saying that the sounds are not actually in the New Level .gob/.goo so its not a breach of license.

Both sides are right so the only way to win in a legal court is to have the best (ie, most devious and highly paid) lawyer. Legal stuff is always a *****, believe me. I'm a musician and I had material stolen from me and its been a nightmare trying to proove my point.

I would say LEC would then have to sue Alexei, the creater of JED. It is his program which decompiles the gob.

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Together we stand.
Divided we fall.

Bladesinger, common consensus says you're wrong.

The JK community's unalterable interpretation of the EULA is that "decompiling, reverse-engineering, etc." refers only to the exe's and dll's. Gobs, pups, etc. have nothing to do with it.

Likewise, referencing a wav file from the res2.gob for your door switch is definately not what that particular part of the agreement is saying. What they are refering to is extracting wavs from the gob, and physically placing the file in your own gob file.

And bear this in mind: LEC does in fact produce other game titles. They are at least in part intending that stipulation to guard against people stealing files from Force Commander, etc.

Consider this: If they really wanted to prevent anybody from editing the game(which your interpretation would definately entail), why the hell did they give us permission to in the very text you are dissecting?

To echo Aglar's previous sentiment, stop.

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Sith Temple -- Website
Strike Force!
The Continuing Adventures of Mara Jade

Look, the EULA says what it says. Im not trying to piss anyone off, and I don't even care the least bit about what LEC thinks of user made level. What I stated earlier does not reflect my own opinion, just the basic legal facts included in the manual. My personnal opinion is that a game develloper should either give permission to user to do what they feel like or make a game that is unalterable. People here, as you said, go with the common consensus, which might or might not be right. Common consensus has it that marijuana should be legalized. heh.. I was just stating the facts. Now stop it yourself if you can't understand that.

And I think that is the heart of it.

Certainly, LEC intended for the creation of add-on levels by the inclusion of the obligatory readme. If LEC had desired to prohibit any user levels, they would not have included a readme for user levels with the game itself.

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Dead Reckoning and Dead Reckoning 2

You guys, BladeSinger does have some very good points. He's also said that he's not trying to get Massassi in trouble, in fact he admits to breaking these 'rules' many times himself. There's no need to yell at him.

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You underestimate the power of the dark side...