I just played through a bunch of them, and I have to say, they were either boxy, buggy, unfinished, or cramped. I don't think I found one good redeeming level.

Just for note, I intentionally avoided the cheezy, no talent I don't know how to add weapons, fight 1 billion reborn levels.

The only SP level that was anywhere near satisfying was the JK Demo...

All this aside, once I am done with IRG palace, I think I am going to foray into the land of SP to bring quality to the land of SP.

Any other SP makers out there who have something in the works, and maybe are close to release? I would love to hear from you.

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*Joren, Legend, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*

eagle_e7 is making a good SP episode called Tragin Galo; although its extremely small on the latest beta i tested, its really cool; cool cutscene effects, custom voice acting, new characters (you arent kyle! OMFG)

yeah, SP maps suck hard; the only one i even keep is tavion, which sucks, but it does have somewhat of a plot, and the map is made alright, although there are some bugs

but yeah, it will take a little while for good **** to come out

I only like Tavion because the author put SOME effort in to his work. The next episode in his series looks MUCH better.

So, anyone here interested in getting together to create a truly awesome SP experience, say with cutscenes and all? I can draft a story if you all want.

I'd say it would be good to have different teams to focus on different aspects, say a cutscene team, a scripting team, a level-building team, etc. And none of this TC stuff, just a SP adventure set in the SW universe...

But I am getting ahead of myself. It obviously won't happen if no one is interested. So, is anyone interested?

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*Joren, Legend, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*

I think that having that many people is really pushing it for amateur mod making, but I'd be willing to work with you (and only you. A two person project is fine, but generally the more people on the project, the more BS there is to put up with. Email is in the profile if you're interested).

The only decent SP level I've played is called "Imperial Base". Problem is, there are about a dozen "Imperial Base" levels, so it's hard to tell them apart. The one I'm talking about is by Jon Rowton.

Tavion was also okay. Like Emon said, the author at least put some effort into it.

I'm working on an SP level right now. I'm not going to claim that it will be the-SP-level-to-end-all-SP-levels. But I will make sure, when it's released, that it's better than all the crap I've seen.

Sine Nomen's SP Nar Shaddaa level should be sweet . . .

True. It will look good, at least.

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*Joren, Legend, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*

So...

Mulling it over. Got links to any work you have done already?

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*Joren, Legend, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*

I'm working on an SP though it's coming along slowly, trying to balance that with getting back ready for classes and then there's work and all that other good stuff. But one day lol.

Nope.

I like Tavion a lot. Ya it's got some issues but it's fun to play and that's what counts. Emon, do you know when the next one will be released and where I can see some screen shots?

I'd love to help, but my method of editing really doesn't lend itself to finishing maps. I'm more of a detail/structure editor. I can ardly finish a room, let alone a map! But if I got given a room, told its purpose and what-not, I could come up with several spiffy variations on it.
Or if there was some particular area that needed something specific, like a central hub or something, I could do that.
I don't mind being told exactly what is needed in the particular area I'm working on - although I'd probably make suggestions myself, I wouldn't get offended if a person that was specifically in charge said "no". If it was a big mish mash with no clear leader, I don't think it would work.

So my point? I'll do it if I'm an underling of a well defined project leader or pair of leaders. And I'm not asked to do huge areas or my creativity will dry up.

Expanding on my 'nope', I have fiddled around with Radiant quite a bit, but I've never been motivated to finish anything. A single-player collaboration episode could be really interesting, I'd like to do it.

yeah, SP collaboration could work, i suppose; although the one "director" would have a final say in the SP episode... and, well, some people have their own ideas and sometimes its hard to tweek their ideas for the better of the project

personally, i think you'd need a good mapper/scripter, and then a good skinner, at the very least - cuz new sp episodes need new characters; then maybe some voice actors along with it

a good thing about that, is skinners and voice actors can be "sub-contractors" , just ask for volunteers, show them what you want (send them a concept sketch, or a piece of the scene script), and it they want to do it, great! put their names in the credits if you use their work
neither parties are really bound to each other though, so they can still do their own thing

so basically, a good mapper with a good idea can go pretty far; but to make a really good sp map, need to go farther

The whole collaborative thing is hard to do for many reasons but the biggest is because we we have no direct contact. Even if there was a director how is he going to enforce his word. Say he says not to change something but the person just feels it's better and does it anyway. Now if the director goes back and undoes that work it will just create a cascade of animosity and the team would just implode. So unless the group could physically be together then I think a large collaborative effort would ultimately fail.

I'm just working on a SP level that's very grass-roots now. All I've got are about 4 freighters, three landing platforms, 8 operating teleporters, 3 on-board turrets on the freighters, a traffic control complex (with its own turret), about 27 Imperial officers that attack you all at once (that's when the cheats come in handy), one semi-spiral staircase, the Bespin sky shader enclosing everything, 7 hangars, and the music from the scene in Minority Reports when Anderton runs away from the rocket-cops and runs into the Lexus factory. The weak points of the level are details off the freighter, detailed scripting (since I haven't done any customizing), no working buttons, and no detailed lighting (even though I have a decent sunset-esque look to a few areas and several running lights on the freighters). Some areas are crampt, then some aren't (like the hangars).

I'm sorry Joren, but claiming yourself to be the Jesus of SP levels isn't going to get the job done. From what I've seen of your work, I'm not impressed at all, and I would be supprised if you could produce a quality SP level at this point. Think of this as a challenge. I look forward to seeing your future work.

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Those who stare in the eyes of death and laugh will be the first to go.

I think many of the JO levels, SP and MP, are very unoriginal. Just take a box, put a few smaller boxes in it with some pipes(CURVING PIPES!) and slap a name like "Imperial Base" "Dueling Arena" "Spaceport" or something like that on there and everyone goes crazy and compliments nonsense which has no originality. And then the guy brags about how short of a time it took him to make it.

Mine's got the working title "Futureworld." Un-original, yes. But uncommon? Yep! I just make things up out of my imagination. Granted, my imagination makes stuff have more curves, I still get reasonably satisfied. I'm starting to think that the freighters are all looking pretty clunky, though, so...it's time to do something sleek. I'll get back with y'all.

patchx made a good effort with Tavion, and his next level does look much better. I also enjoyed the Imperial Base level, although it had a weak/nonexistent story and no cutscenes and was rather generic. AKPiggott is working on his Mace Windu level, which looks great (what else, from him?), and Sine Nomen's Nar Shaddaa level looks superb.

I'm currently about to start the actual work on my series where you play as a stormtrooper, after too much time working on ideas/learning GTK.

Single player maps have different challenges than multi player maps. There has to be some reason behind the world you're mapping. It has to go with the story. A single player map is not a big arena like MP maps. You got to plan out many things such as cutscenes and how the story is going to develop.

I'm working on a GREAT story for a single player series. It will be released as a series of episodes of one to three levels each, you'll get to play different characters each time. Many of the expanded universe characters will be there, as well as some old friends (you'll find out). As i said in the other forum, if you wanna help with mapping, scripting, or skinning, mail me at mattkg@intherunnning.zzn.com and I'll send you the backstory (like the one in the JO readme)

hey jipe, itd be cool if you changed the HUD so the first person view is thru a stormtrooper visor

I think you could do that.

Hoard, I just said the ones out there are bad. I never proclaimed myself to be Jesus.

Anyway, I am agreeing with most of the collaboration points out there, on why it would not work. So I think when I do go the SP route, I will go it alone.

Anyway, it doesn't take a mapper to see that the SP levels suck.

BTW, I do agree that Tavion isn't a bad SP level. Its actually one of 2 that are quite decent. The rest suck.

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*Joren, Legend, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*

Sure sounds like Jesus to me.

I thought Tavion was terrible...it had some decent architecture, but that's it.

Lol, then you don't know Jesus.


Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anyway, the reason I made that comment as because I think anyone with some mapping ability and a bit of patience can make a good level. "Rushed" would be the term I would use for most of the SP levels I have played.

Now, if I had said that I will single-handedly save the realm of SP JO mapping, then I could get the Jesus comment. But I definitely am not THAT confident in my abilities. I just want to create something enjoyable. Which honestly, most authors seem to be failing in right now.

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*Joren, Legend, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*

Lol, BTW, I meant in SP. THe quality of MP maps is quite good at this juncture, overall.

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*Joren, Legend, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*

I don't understand. A single player map HAS to have a story? I don't think that SP maps have to have a story in order to be good. Sure, it helps but as long as the action is good and flows well. Take a look at the Demo level provided by LucasArts for example. It has NO story and some people, including myself, think that it is one of the best SP maps out there. The same goes for the Ladder. No story but it still has managed to be a great SP level. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a SP level doesn't have to have a great story in order to be a great level.

I have the same conclusion for now. I downloaded an SP level called Hideout Escape a while back, and I almost had a heart attack. The level was a box connected to more boxes where I just faced many stormtroopers and Imperial officers. Boring, lame, sad, ugly . . . you name it. I remembered the great addon levels made for MotS and JK and I thought to myself that there was a major problem with the JKII SP addon editors. I have never downloaded another SP level for JKII since, but I think that there is light at the end of the tunnel. I am almost at that end.

The collaboration of many people to make one great level could work if done in a certain manner. There would be one person making the storyline and map. That person would ask for people do to other tasks like make custom models, textures, voices, etc. That is all. One leading map maker with a bunch of accessible specialists. That would probably work.

I am currently making an MP map, it will feature lots of NPCs (what does NPC stand for?). It is a gamble, but I am going to try.

P.S. If anyone feels like saying "There is no try.", I don't care.



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Jedi Outcast Multiplayer Name: [J-O]_II88BlackOps
Standard Model: Shadowtrooper
Preferred servers: Barrysworld CTF, Gamesdomain.co.uk FFA, and another FFA server.

Hey BlackOps leave the server you dial-up b****."
-A very friendly JO MP playing cable user who was bit . . uh . . concerned about my former 56k connection (i have cable now).

One of the reasons why I'm not trying to make a good SP level is because of several reasons. First, there is a great lack of customizability as far as story and objectives go. Second, compiling time is far too great to even think about making a long and detailed SP map. Third, scripts are much harder to write than cogs ever were and so puzzles are too hard to create. This leaves SP editors with nothing better to do rather than create boxy maps with many enemies. It's the easy way out of a lot of work. Unfortunately, many editors take the short and easy path over the long and enduring "quality work" path.

"I don't understand. A single player map HAS to have a story?"

Only the good ones.

"I don't think that SP maps have to have a story in order to be good. Sure, it helps but as long as the action is good and flows well."

Then your maps will always lack a certain something.

"Take a look at the Demo level provided by LucasArts for example. It has NO story and some people, including myself, think that it is one of the best SP maps out there."

I agree it was one of the best SP's (the best, actually) out there, but I do not count it because it was professionally done. HOWEVER, it DID have a story. Just because you did not know it in advance doesn't mean it didn't have one. The first part of the story was searching an outpost for remnant troops, and the second part was rescuing Jan. Granted, the story was simple, but it HAD a story. Few people want to run around killing tons of troopers without knowing WHY, and what they need to achieve. A story, no matter how simple, adds that element.

"The same goes for the Ladder. No story but it still has managed to be a great SP level."

Sorry, but I do not consider "kill the reborn's over and over" a level, no matter WHAT the setting. A good map will mix it up.

"I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a SP level doesn't have to have a great story in order to be a great level."

On this, we agree. The story is the reason why you are playing the level, however. Its the setting. If story didn't matter, then just take a box, make it look all puty inside, and load it with troops, and fire away. Not a good level.

I will commit myself to SP once I am done with IRG Palace, until I can put a decent SP level out there. Then I will go back to MP mapping.

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*Joren, Legend, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*

No no! You're missing the point! I meant that a SP level doesn't need a great story to be a great level. You said it yourself, "A story, no matter how simple, adds that element."
The SP levels around now just don't have what it takes to be a great level. Sure, they don't have a plot but that is not what makes a level. A level is made by the flow of action and puzzles. I don't think that a map that has excellent architexture, excellent puzzles, and excellent enemy placement, etc. is a so-so level if it doesn't have a plot. I play the SP levels because they are fun, not because of the story involved.
Now think about this. Multiplayer gaming is fun. Plain and simple. Multiplayer gaming doesn't have a plot. I know, I know. You're gonna say that there is almost no way to implement a plot into a MP map but nonetheless, multiplayer doesn't need a plot in order to be a great gaming experience.
I think that the same goes for SP add-on levels. I don't care as much for the plot, but I do care if I have fun playing the level.

[This message has been edited by Grundy (edited August 19, 2002).]

There's no real point behind a level with no background. You could just make a box and spawn endless numbers of NPCs.

What you need to do is go back and play the demo again. Don't skip through the text crawl either. Read it. There is a story behind why Kyle and Jan are going to Alzoc III. Did you ever notice that there's mission objectives too? That's part of the story.

If you're having trouble with the word story I'll choose a new description. How about "meaning". I find it more interesting if there's a purpose behind what I'm doing.

If you're content with running through one large box after another and taking on 2 dozen Reborns then so be it.

And if you're not trying to make a good SP level then why bother? Sounds like an excuse to me.

SP levels without plot usually suck.

Well plots are the main source for solid SP levels! I am doing a SP Novelish type thing for JKO. http://boards.gamers.com/messages/overview.asp?name=TGPCREWMB

Here is a plot in which I hope to make..

*if stardate is invalid please let me know!*
The stardate is 5340, Delminaris the 25th. Evil of Yuuzhan Vong has finally been put to rest. By the joint hands of Jedis, Rebels, and unkown factions. They seen a effort into putting a end to the menace in which caused the universe a very great deal of pain. A hope of good was born as well a evil half. Two exact twin brothers concieved at birth shown a great deal of struggle. They immediatly need'd seperate paths. For one to the other was a huge threat and for that a secret was in need of hiding. Alex Vilance and Jake Vilance both brothers as said to be exact twins. But Jake the so spoken evil half into the growing years of being a teenager changed biological form from illegal bio clinics. Little is seen or heard from him when he turned 14. It has been 8 years since I last seen my brother. My jedi knight training is complete and the trials where sucessful. I am soon to under go my own path to prove to the new jedi order that I am able mind'd to be a master knight. Time can only tell for what of my destiny will lead me to.

*odd yes. the depth of what will happen with alex is a hidden secret. its hard to think up plots but can be fun and very chalenging! I am thinking jake will be under the study of a sith lord as well in a dark jedi cult. Brewing alot of idea's on a profiecy*

PS I know my grammer and spelling stink but hey, the thought into this does count!

Now the atmospehere, on alex's behalf will go into his past.. showing the relationship he had with his brother. The parents did give birth to him and jake but, when jake turned 14 he went homicidal. As for alex, he was studying at the jedi academny and collapsed during a training session. But alex and Jake are both 22. Alex a jedi knight that just completed the trials. and Jaked a unkown. His form has changed as told above and for what he does with his actions is complete opposite of alex. Its like me spliting my personality up in too. One half is good and the other evil. The intention, will still behold a greater evil and both brothers must work side by side. Now getting to the idea on making it so will be fun and challenging! Now I gotta think of what the greater evil will be . Ya there will be illegal cloneing because of what happened hence the clone wars. Which put the imperials on arrest for genocide. Well I will watch my every setp. But the gameplay itself will be eye droping hehe... I have started production and soon it all will have a beta release. Like chp1, mission 1, event 1-3. Well if ya need to post on the MB in which I made feel free to add idea's!

Am I arguing with everyone on the forums here?! "If you're content with running through one large box after another and taking on 2 dozen Reborns then so be it."
But that's just it! I DON'T like running through box after box with 2 dozen reborn. But you have to understand that you're stereotyping levels that have no plot. Just because the level has no plot does not mean that it is a level that is box after box filled with waves of enemies. That's what I'm trying to explain. A plot can get an author to come up with interesting things for the player to do such as fighting 2 dozen reborn in order to rescue Jan. J Darkstar: "...they were either boxy, buggy, unfinished, or cramped. I don't think I found one good redeeming level." He is complaining that none of the released levels are very good as far as ANYTHING goes, not just plot. I'm not trying to argue except to point this out.



[This message has been edited by Grundy (edited August 19, 2002).]