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☖ Forums → Discussion Forum → Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ"
Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ"
2004-02-12, 7:13 AM #1
http://www.passion-movie.com/english/index.html

Discuss.

Particularily the potential for so-called anti-semitism... (check the news section for articles regarding the movie, and do Google searches).

I personally can't wait to see it, and I praise Mel Gibson for not making the movie PC by minimalizing the Jews role in the event. I was watching some moron on the TV today who was saying that the film was anti-semitic because it sticks to the biblical account of the event in which the angry Jewish mob basically bullies Pilate into having Jesus crucified. The guy that was being interviewed on TV (I can't remember his name) was saying that he should have changed some of the details so that it didn't seem like the Jews were being blamed for Jesus' death. This is the biggist load of hogwash I've ever heard. First of all, since I believe the Bible to be infallable, I believe that that's how it happened, and if that's how it happened, then that's how it should be portrayed. Second, the Jews had nothing to do with "causing" Jesus' death. Jesus was destined to die. His purpose on Earth was to live a perfect life and then die (both physically and spiritually), therefore paying the penalty for our sins. I think that rather than look at the Jewish mob and think, "Wow, look at those evil Jews" we should look at the Jewish mob and think, "Wow, look how Satan can corrupt the hearts of men," and furthermore, "Wow, look how God's power is evident, even when Satan thinks he's getting his way."

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Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin
http://www.writings-emag.net The next big thing since individually wrapped cheese slices (coming soon).
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Lassev: I guess there was something captivating in savagery, because I liked it.
2004-02-12, 7:24 AM #2
FREEEDDOOOMMMMMMMM!!!!!
Code:
if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}
2004-02-12, 7:52 AM #3
I'll be going to see it whether it's anti-semitic or not (which I doubt that it is). The preview that I saw looked quite good.

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http://www.napalmdeathsquad.com
2004-02-12, 8:29 AM #4
It depends on your interpretation of anti-semitic, and, more importantly, on your interpretation of the events that will be depicted. Some people think that since the movie portrays Pilate as having been pressured by a Jewish mob, the movie is blaming Christ's death on the Jews, and therefore, anti-semitic. I believe, however, that the Jews really had nothing to do with it. I believe that it was Satan's influence, (and inadvertantly God's Power), being represented. The way I see it, Jesus was sent to die. It was going to happen anyway. Who cares who was specifically responsible?

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Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin
http://www.writings-emag.net The next big thing since individually wrapped cheese slices (coming soon).
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Lassev: I guess there was something captivating in savagery, because I liked it.
2004-02-12, 8:36 AM #5
I heard they were cutting some scenes; can someone give me a link about this?

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"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
-Robert Jastrow
"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
-Robert Jastrow
2004-02-12, 8:41 AM #6
Well, historically, Pilate DID want to free Jesus, he WAS pressured by the jewish masses to crucify him (the Sanhedrin stirred up these mobs), and both the jews and the romans beat the living piss out of Jesus.

It's not anti-semetic, its the truth.

That would be like me calling someone anti-catholic because they took an honest look at the inquisition.

Everyone has bad spots in their history. If the jewish people aren't like that anymore, why should they care about something their ancestors did do roughly 2000 years ago?

To me, its just plain silliness.

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*Joren, Legend, Alleged Egomaniac, Thread-Killer, 2-time Ban Recipient, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*
*Joren, Legend, Alleged Egomaniac, Thread-Killer, 3-time Ban Recipient, and 6th Grade Spelling Champ*
2004-02-12, 8:56 AM #7
Well said, Joren..

I highly reccomend you all read this article, by the way:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4212741/

It basically discusses the concerns over anti-semitism, and while it takes a very politically correct view (and therefore one that I don't completely agree with), it's a very informative read... Plus, look at that picture on the first page. I don't see how anyone will be able to watch this movie without getting a fresh idea and understanding about His death, which is undoubtedly the desired effect.

I can't wait to see it.


(And Mentat, I haven't heard/read anything yet about scenes being cut but if I run across anything, I'll post it here.

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Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin
http://www.writings-emag.net The next big thing since individually wrapped cheese slices (coming soon).
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Lassev: I guess there was something captivating in savagery, because I liked it.
2004-02-12, 8:58 AM #8
The anit-Semetic argument is a load. The Romans weren't the only ne's who wanted Jesus out of the picture.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.
Pissed Off?
2004-02-12, 9:03 AM #9
heh, took this off the Passion website from the FAQ.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Q. Were there miracles on the set of THE PASSION during filming?

(A) Mel Gibson states in an interview, "There have been a lot of unusual things happening, good things like people being healed of diseases, a couple of people have had sight and hearing restored, another guy was struck by lightning while we were filming the crucifixion scene and he just got up and walked away."
</font>


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Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin
http://www.writings-emag.net The next big thing since individually wrapped cheese slices (coming soon).
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Lassev: I guess there was something captivating in savagery, because I liked it.
2004-02-12, 10:15 AM #10
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by clan ruthervain:
FREEEDDOOOMMMMMMMM!!!!!</font>


i love you

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America, home of the free gift with purchase.
America, home of the free gift with purchase.
2004-02-12, 10:20 AM #11
I will personally not be seeing this movie. Granted, it will probably be pretty good, I just don't like to see movies of this nature cause of religious reasons. Although, I don't understand the Jews' stance on the movie either. Its done, it happened, get over it.

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maeve
2004-02-12, 10:44 AM #12
I'll definatly be seeing this movie.
My church even reserved a theater on the 28th so we can get in at a discount [http://forums.massassi.net/html/smile.gif]

And they were forced to remove scenes that were un-PC.
Which is funny cause it's lines from the Bible that they cut, they didn't write the stuff, it's been there for thousands of years.

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On a Swedish chainsaw: "Do not attempt to stop chain with your hands or genitals."
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On a Swedish chainsaw: "Do not attempt to stop chain with your hands or genitals."
2004-02-12, 10:49 AM #13
On a slightly different note, I find this to be potentially interesting regarding the trial of Jesus.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Barabbas is one of the most intriguing puzzles in the Bible. He is mentioned only briefly, in three of the four gospels, and we have little real information on who he was or what he did.

As the story of the Messiah moves to its inevitable climax, Pontius Pilate is under pressure from the Jews to crucify Jesus. He sees a way out in an old tradition - releasing a prisoner on the Passover. All he has to do is officially condemn this King of the Jews, then release him using this holiday loophole.

(Many historians doubt this particular detail. After all, Rome was a world superpower. Why would they do something so foolish as to release death row inmates simply because some of their assimilated citizens were enjoying a religious festival? And what right-minded Jew would come up with such a tradition, anyway? But, of course, relations between Rome and Israel were strained, to say the least. Unusual circumstances were bound to emerge.)

Pilate wanted to use this holiday to pardon Jesus. The Jews (roused to righteous ire by their religious leaders) would have none of it. If Pilate wanted to release an inmate on the Passover, they insisted it be this.... Barabbas.

The Gospels of Mark and Luke note that Barabbas had been arrested for a murder he committed during an insurrection. The Gospel of Matthew refers to him as "notorious". He was a killer, a revolutionary, and an enemy to the Roman state. And he was famous for it.

One can readily imagine a grizzled terrorist, a fierce advocate of Israeli separation. A hater of Rome and a disturber of the peace. Perhaps he commanded a group of guerrillas, skulking in the hills to strike at military encampments in the dead of night. Perhaps he was a leader, a self-styled prophet, inciting riots and spreading incendiary dogma. Perhaps he stabbed one too many centurions in the neck, and now the time for justice had come.

Or, perhaps, he was a scapegoat, a Jew in the wrong place at the wrong time. We'll never know.

What is really interesting, though, is his name.

One need not be an expert in Hebrew (or Aramaic, or whatever this is) to discover what the name "Barabbas" means.

The "bar" means "son of". The other prisoner, for example, would be known as "Yeshua bar Yosef". It's a distant cousin of the famous "bin" in "Osama bin Laden". It's kind of like the Irish "O' " or the Scottish "Mc/Mac/Mack".

The "abbas" is similar to the word "rabbi", it means "father". Jesus recommended we refer to God as "Abba", which is closer to "Daddy".

So, then, "Bar-Abbas" means "Son of the Father", something which could be said of any man. Maybe it was a pseudonym, a nom de guerre. Maybe he was known for following in his father's footsteps.

More than a few people have proposed that Barabbas' first name was actually "Jesus". After all, it was a common name at the time. So then, what you would have is Jesus Barabbas (who violently opposed Rome, as the people wanted their Messiah to do... and who had a human father) and Jesus BarJoseph (who spouted bizarre yet somehow comforting theology and whose real father was intangible). The people chose between the two Jesuses, and picked the one who promised them physical freedom through violence (as opposed to spiritual freedom through sacrifice).

An interesting piece of symbolism, even if it isn't quite historically accurate</font>


You can find the original source here:

http://tailsteak.netherweb.com/archive.php?num=93

And all I really hope is that they don't make Jesus to look like some immaculate white guy. He was a carpenter a good deal of his life living in the Middle East -- he should look like one, dangit.

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2004-02-12, 10:49 AM #14
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by clan ruthervain:
FREEEDDOOOMMMMMMMM!!!!!</font>


Best movie ever!

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2004-02-12, 10:55 AM #15
I saw a trailer for it last weekend. There's only one thing to say...

I WANT TO SEE THAT MOVIE!!!!!!!

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I am Darth Slaw.
The Dark Lord of the Sith,
And part of the Nightfire mod team
May the mass times acceleration be with you.
2004-02-12, 11:02 AM #16
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gebohq:
On a slightly different note, I find this to be potentially interesting regarding the trial of Jesus.

You can find the original source here:

http://tailsteak.netherweb.com/archive.php?num=93

And all I really hope is that they don't make Jesus to look like some immaculate white guy. He was a carpenter a good deal of his life living in the Middle East -- he should look like one, dangit.

</font>


I believe the Romans released one prisoner at the festival and the prisoner was chosen by the Jewish folk, not the Romans.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.
Pissed Off?
2004-02-12, 11:04 AM #17
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joren DarkStar:
Well, historically, Pilate DID want to free Jesus, he WAS pressured by the jewish masses to crucify him (the Sanhedrin stirred up these mobs), and both the jews and the romans beat the living piss out of Jesus.</font>


IIRC, the notion that Pilate wanted to spare Jesus was written into the Bible by early Christians who wanted to make the faith more at ease with Roman society.
A desperate disease requires a dangerous remedy.

A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.

art
2004-02-12, 11:08 AM #18
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Avenger:
I believe the Romans released one prisoner at the festival and the prisoner was chosen by the Jewish folk, not the Romans.

</font>


Yes, it was the Jews. It was a day of the Penticost thing.

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Do you have stairs in your house?
Do you have stairs in your house?
2004-02-12, 12:21 PM #19
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">IIRC, the notion that Pilate wanted to spare Jesus was written into the Bible by early Christians who wanted to make the faith more at ease with Roman society.</font>
You must understand, Sine, that we Christians don't believe that anything was just "written into the Bible" unless it was 100% accurate. I understand, though, that you probably don't see it that way, so I won't push the issue.

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Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin
http://www.writings-emag.net The next big thing since individually wrapped cheese slices (coming soon).
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Lassev: I guess there was something captivating in savagery, because I liked it.
2004-02-12, 2:26 PM #20
In reality, the Jews had full reason to kill "Jesus."

If some madman in the 13th century came to an English town and said "I'm the son of God", would he be accepted with loving arms?

Of course not... And thats what Jesus did. He claimed to be the Messiah with no evidence that he was.

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To myself I surrender to the one I'll never please.
But I still try to run on.
You know I still try to run on. But it's all or none.

Eddie Vedder
former entrepreneur
2004-02-12, 2:45 PM #21
The purpose of his miracles was to show that he was the son of God.

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Do you have stairs in your house?
Do you have stairs in your house?
2004-02-12, 2:48 PM #22
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Eversor:
In reality, the Jews had full reason to kill "Jesus."

If some madman in the 13th century came to an English town and said "I'm the son of God", would he be accepted with loving arms?

Of course not... And thats what Jesus did. He claimed to be the Messiah with no evidence that he was.

</font>


There was enough evidence for some people and not others, especially the Jewish religious leaders. Jesu was teaching things completely contrary to what they were.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.
Pissed Off?
2004-02-12, 2:57 PM #23
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Correction:
The purpose of his miracles was to show that he was the son of God.

</font>


"If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes about of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!'--do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream...And that prophet and that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against Hashem, your G-d." (13: 2-4, 6; Artscroll Chumash.)


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I have become Death, destroyer of newbs.
Statavad-Gita 8:14
:master::master::master:
2004-02-12, 2:59 PM #24
That's great stat, but it's completely pointless. I was just responding to him saying that he provided no evidence he was the Son of God.

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Do you have stairs in your house?
Do you have stairs in your house?
2004-02-12, 3:08 PM #25
It's not completely pointless, and I won't explain why because I couldn't do it without going utterly ad hominem and cause myself to be banned. I'm normally not a person ruled by my emotions, but you cause an exception.

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I have become Death, destroyer of newbs.
Statavad-Gita 8:14
:master::master::master:
2004-02-12, 3:19 PM #26
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sine Nomen:
IIRC, the notion that Pilate wanted to spare Jesus was written into the Bible by early Christians who wanted to make the faith more at ease with Roman society.</font>
First, that must have been difficult when the writers of the Bible were Jewish.

Second, is this your own speculation, or do you have reputable evidence of such an alteration?

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2004-02-12, 3:42 PM #27
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DogSRoOL:
First, that must have been difficult when the writers of the Bible were Jewish.</font>


Luke was most likely aimed at Gentiles. He traces Jesus' lineage back to Adam, not just Abraham, showing him as the savior of all men. He is concerned with Jesus' compassion for people of all nationalities, sexes, ages, creeds, and backgrounds. The shepherds are the ones who visit the infantile Jesus. Shepherds were not seen as good Jews, since they could not easily observe the mitzvot or go to the Temple for sacrifices. The Parable of the Good Samaritan is another example. Pilate being reluctant to kill Jesus, as Sine mentioned, is another one.

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I have become Death, destroyer of newbs.
Statavad-Gita 8:14
:master::master::master:
2004-02-12, 4:12 PM #28
[edit: Never mind - This thread could've been thrown in the Religious Discussion Forum.]

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"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." - Proverbs 27:17

The Giant Internet IC Masturbator - Index of IC pinouts
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[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited February 12, 2004).]
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2004-02-12, 9:09 PM #29
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Of course not... And thats what Jesus did. He claimed to be the Messiah with no evidence that he was.</font>
...Yeah, except that whole raising people from the dead thing... [http://forums.massassi.net/html/rolleyes.gif]

And stat, as for your reference, that's from a Jewish text, one not recognized in the Christian bible as being scripture, correct? I'll not say anything regarding that, because it's a difference of opinion mainly, and who am I to claim what texts are scriture and what are not. However, I would point out that Jesus did *not* teach that we should follow or worship "other gods." His teachings were a fulfillment of the law, not a parting from it.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">That's great stat, but it's completely pointless.</font>
Let's... try and be tactful, shall we Correction? Telling people that their holy writings are "completely pointless" is hardly condusive to a friendly discussion. And, in fact, that text is not completely useless, I would guess that stat posted it in order to point out that just because someone performs miracles does *not* necessarily make him a prophet from God. It's important that we judge what he says as well as does against Scripture.

As a fun little exercise, study some of the things Jesus said to the religious teachers. It's pretty cool, in my opinion, how he was able to in only a few words turn their corrupt theology completely upside down, and furthermore that quite often, he did it by quoting Scripture (or if not, there's references to Scripture that show us how what he said is accurate in most Cross-Reference bibles).

Anyway, if you plan on seeing the film, or would like to support its stay in theatres, please go here.

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Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin
http://www.writings-emag.net The next big thing since individually wrapped cheese slices (coming soon).
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Lassev: I guess there was something captivating in savagery, because I liked it.
2004-02-13, 12:56 AM #30
I'm not gonna see it because the two words of Latin in the trailer were so atrociously pronounced that seeing the entire movie would be torture.

Not to mention that a movie based entirely around a guy being tortured and killed would not exactly brighten my day.
2004-02-13, 1:17 AM #31
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarn_Cadrill:
heh, took this off the Passion website from the FAQ.

Q. Were there miracles on the set of THE PASSION during filming?

(A) Mel Gibson states in an interview, "There have been a lot of unusual things happening, good things like people being healed of diseases, a couple of people have had sight and hearing restored, another guy was struck by lightning while we were filming the crucifixion scene and he just got up and walked away."
</font>


The struck by lightning bit is my personal favorite. Tone down the cliches and you might almost believe Mel isn't talking on behalf of the marketing department.

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Or then not. --FastGamerr/Nikumubeki
Looks like we're not going down after all, so nevermind.
2004-02-13, 1:37 AM #32
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by stat:
It's not completely pointless, and I won't explain why because I couldn't do it without going utterly ad hominem and cause myself to be banned. I'm normally not a person ruled by my emotions, but you cause an exception.

</font>


[http://forums.massassi.net/html/confused.gif]

Look: He said Jesus expected people to follow him with no proof at all. I said Jesus did take measures to provide proof. Whether it was legal or accepted during that day is irrelevant. I'm not saying Jesus was or wasn't the Son of God (personally, I honestly have no clue. I can't make a decision at this point). I don't know why that statement would ever cause an emotional response. Sorry, if it was a negative one. It was entirely unintended.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarn_Cadrill:
Let's... try and be tactful, shall we Correction? Telling people that their holy writings are "completely pointless" is hardly condusive to a friendly discussion. And, in fact, that text is not completely useless, I would guess that stat posted it in order to point out that just because someone performs miracles does *not* necessarily make him a prophet from God. It's important that we judge what he says as well as does against Scripture.</font>


As basically stated above, I never said the holy writings themselves were pointless, but bringing that up in response to my comment was entirely pointless. There was nothing "tactless" about what I said. One of my favorite things about Massassi is how no matter what I say, there will always be not only ONE somebody, but usually TWO OR MORE somebodies that will completely misunderstand what I'm saying and take it to be a horrible thing to say. [http://forums.massassi.net/html/rolleyes.gif]

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Do you have stairs in your house?

[This message has been edited by Correction (edited February 13, 2004).]
Do you have stairs in your house?
2004-02-13, 6:38 AM #33
>>And stat, as for your reference, that's from a Jewish text, one not recognized in the Christian bible as being scripture, correct?<<

It's from the Talmud, which is a huge commentary on the Pentateuch. The various commentaries on the Torah are not canon, but the five books certainly are. I don't remember the correct Deuteronomy reference, but it's something along those lines. The "miracles don't mean s***" thing is a common theological theory. It's also present in Buddhism and Zoroastrianism. I suppose by extension it could be applied to a Christian context. Look at Simon Magus (He's mentioned a few times, but mainly in Acts of the Apostles). According to Acts, he had true occult powers, but he certainly was not a holy man.

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I have become Death, destroyer of newbs.
Statavad-Gita 8:14
:master::master::master:
2004-02-13, 12:46 PM #34
Pilate would have loved to kill a revolutionary, he just saw that the Sanhedrin were trying to use him to do their dirty work and resented it.

As for satan amongst the Jews and not Pilate, Pilate had ordered the deaths of hundreds, maybe more. There comes a point where there is no need for temptation, and he wouldn't give it a second thought. Why would the devil need to give him a push down a road he has already been on for a very long time?

People have no ability to think about it, and read between the lines before they freak out over nothing. The people who think it's anti-semetic are as ignorant as the people in the past who used the writings against the Jews in the first place.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....
Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....
2004-02-13, 7:19 PM #35
Sarn, only now do I realize how cool you are... I think this should be one of the most momentous Christian events in recent history, I'm stoked...

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