We're going over Marxism/Socialism/Communism/Industrialism in history class.

Today, I made an observation which I'm sure has been made so many times before, although maybe not here.

It appeared to me today somewhat ironic that America, which was 150 years ago the epitome of a liberal nation, is now the most highly conversative in comparison to the European commonwealths. It would seem ironic that America, a nation which is now rather conservative to its democratic-contemporaries would go on to try and spread 'freedom' to foriegn nations. Regardless, that discussion has occured here regularly.

Socialism is this threads topic. Is it not time for America to follow in the footsteps of Europe (and even Canada) and start to implement Socialism into its government? What issues prevent this from occuring more than anything?

Are [you] people willing to accept it?

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To myself I surrender to the one I'll never please.
But I still try to run on.
You know I still try to run on. But it's all or none.

Eddie Vedder

Socialism= Bad.

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"Buildings that we have created to be aesthetically pleasing are slaughtering birds."

The US was founded on a capitalist system and it's ingrained now. The US likes its private businesses

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

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The future is here, and all bets are off.

Not all socialism = bad.

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The Massassi-Map
There is no spoon.

Socialism doesn't work. It might as well be bad.

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[This message has been edited. Deal with it.]

If One man could trust every other man in this world to do what is right no matter what the immediate consequences are, then Socialism would be the final step as humanity reaches its peak. Without that trust, then socialism will always fall to corruption.

- Singed: A Marxist


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"Well, if I am not drunk, I am mad, but I trust I can behave like a gentleman in either
condition."... G. K. Chesterton

“questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself”

socialism doesn't work because human nature has a thing called greed

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*landfish 'splodes*
7 of 14

You failed to see Eversor's point. Eversor isnt saying that we should become a communist country, but he says that America should look at how Canada/Europe does things like their medical systems and stuff.

America already has some socialist programs in place... haha well not the best example = welfare.


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please

In case you haven't noticed, Americans generally hold a distaste for Europeans and Canadians for this very reason. If you want to be a commie, move or something. Just don't ruin my country more than it already is.

And don't confuse "liberalism" and "conservatism" the way you do, please. They are no absolute terms, especially in regards to history, where they mean vastly different things.

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Ω of 14

In Soviet Australia, distaste holds YOU.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1 & 2 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Don't confuse "socialism" and "communism" the way you do, please. There's a difference.

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"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." - Proverbs 27:17

The Giant Internet IC Masturbator - Index of IC pinouts
Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code (NEC) Online - Don't do wiring without consulting it. OR ELSE!

I said commie because it's a fun derogatory term. I'm fully aware of the difference.

..


..

Commie.

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Ω of 14

Um... Ok.

Wait... are you calling me a commie now?

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"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." - Proverbs 27:17

The Giant Internet IC Masturbator - Index of IC pinouts
Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code (NEC) Online - Don't do wiring without consulting it. OR ELSE!

Why? What are you admitting to? mm? MM?? PINKO!

*explodes*

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"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." - Proverbs 27:17

The Giant Internet IC Masturbator - Index of IC pinouts
Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code (NEC) Online - Don't do wiring without consulting it. OR ELSE!

Only a commie would explode!

Of course, he explodes, blood everywhere....and what colour is blood?

THAT'S RIGHT BORIS.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1 & 2 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Preventing the individual from reaching his full potential is implicit in socialism. That's anathema to Americans. It's a very simple issue in my mind.

That is to say nothing of the fact socialism in a capitalist world is unworkable, something the French are beginning to realize. Its leaders may give lip service to resisting "Americanization", but the fact of the matter is French spending habits look more and more like ours every day.

[This message has been edited by Sine Nomen (edited February 13, 2004).]

Capitalism and socialism don't have to exclude one another.

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Or then not. --FastGamerr/Nikumubeki

What, with slavery and all?

Getting back on track, it's been discussed before: programs like a National Healthcare Service would not work because of the already large and increasing population. Social Security is a great example of this - when it was started, there were some 10-15 workers per person that qualified. Now it's approximately 3 workers per person that qualifies. What happens when it's reduced to one?

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it || The Link of the Dead

Socialism and it's more extreme version, communism, forces economic equality. And we've seen just how fixed economies work (see 5-year Plan). Sine said it best though, socialism puts a cap on success. You can only achieve financial success to a certain point before you're taxed so heavily.

Becareful for the teacher might...persuade you into accepting some form of socialism. That's the new tactic these days.

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<scribbly handwriting barely resembling name>

Ahem. To make sure that people make no mistakes, Socialism is essentially half-way between liberalism and communism.



Anyway, there are already many socialist programs that are in the U.S., of which the most high-held are Medicare and Social Security, and state-funded grade schools. I don't see why it wouldn't be a bad thing to have more government involvement. After all, if it weren't for FDR's "New Deal", the U.S. would have stayed in the depression far longer, wuite possibly extending into WWII, which would have had drastic consequences.

In a socialist nation, the government manages many things that are left up to private industires, such as health care. Taxes are usually higher as a result, but hey, the USA's government spending is about 1/3 of the total GDP (putting us near the top), so we shouldn't notice much of the difference. If the US were to adopt more social domestic policies, the lower, working, middle, and ever upper-middle (constituting ~95% of America)classes would benefit, even though it would come at a goodly cost to the rich. If anyone wants to say that current salaries are fair for everyone, remember that when George W. Bush doubled his salary, it went from $200,000 to $400,000 annually. Does this low ammount make sense for one of the most important jobs in the world?

Also, capitalism is a unique idealogy in the it has no bias; it can fit with a ractionary (ultimate right-wing) government as well as with a conservative, moderate, liberal, and radical (ultimate left-wing). It just takes different forms. In the United States, where conservative capitalism is largely at work, corporations have great deals of power, and have a large ammount of say on what goes on. I don't think I need to elaborate on liberal capitalism (the original capitalism), or any of Adam Smith's principles. In Socialist capitalism, businesses must make sure they are fully accountable to the public; restrictions are placed to keep the playing field balanced for everybody, regardless of whether the person is a CEO of a fortune 500 company, a "consumer" (I HATE that word; it epitomises big business's opinion of us), or a small-business owner. Anyone who understands the basis of what it means to be Conservative, Liberal, or Moderate will understand people's viewpoints on it much more easily.

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Nes digs around in the trash can.
Nes finds a hamburger!
Nes puts the hamburger in his backpack.

[This message has been edited by nottheking (edited February 13, 2004).]

Well, since it is valentines day tomorrow, here is a poem for you:

Hammers are red,
Sickles arn't blue,
In soviet Russia,
Poems write you.


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GhostOfYoda - General doer of stuff.

*implodes*?

...

?

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"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." - Proverbs 27:17

The Giant Internet IC Masturbator - Index of IC pinouts
Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code (NEC) Online - Don't do wiring without consulting it. OR ELSE!

This is why people hate Americans: we assume that our system works for everyone else and get so arrogant and full of ourselves that we piss people off when we tell them that there political system sucks. You're doing the same thing. What works for one culture doesn't necessarily work for another. Look at China. They are doing fine with their Communist incrementalism. But it would never work in America. And vice versa. Also, America now is FAR more liberal than when it started.

By saying that socialism is bad no matter where it is applied is extremely short sighted. Every kind of government has it's uses, even a dictatorship(absent the unnecessary killing of subjects). That's why I like our Constitution: it allows us a great deal of flexiblity in how we run our government.

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Checksum: I thought about it, I guess I'm striving for my own personal ideals. I'll just project those ideals onto Jesus and say "I'm trying to be like Jesus" so that I won't have to listen to you banter endlessly about me worshipping a false god or some such.

The Last True Evil: Ironically, that's very Christian of you.

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited February 13, 2004).]

'Capitalism' and 'Marxism' are not 'complete opposites'. Capitalism is simply an economic system, defining private enterprise and driven by ever-increasing profit. Marxism on the other hand, is huge. Marx was indeed primarily an economist, but was also a sociologist, political activist, philosopher and writer. Marxism is a massively comprehensive ideology, and covers a huge array of aspects of life.

The real problem is that too few people actually know what Marxism is.

The key tenent of Marxism is the struggle between the proliteriat and bourgouise, and that the proliteriat have to prostitute their labour to survive, while the bourgouise exploit the proliteriat to survive.
You'll have to remember that Marx was writing around the 1850s, during the Industrial Revolution in Britain. Marx saw that factory owners (bourges) were paying the workers (proles) far less than the worth of their labour. They could do this because:

1 - High rate of unemployment. Factory owners could pay low wages because there'd be dozens of workers willing to take the job if a worker wasn't satisfied.

2 - Fragmented society. People were beginning to live in smaller families, and being less dependant upon the community. This way the individual would be a lot more isolated, and be less likely to unite with other proles to overthrow the bourges.

3 - False class consciousness. The state benefited from the exploitation as well, and so would influence the proles to accept their exploitation. (This is really a huge element, and was especially significant in the purging of capitalism during the Russian and Chinese revolutions. I'll go into this in more detail if necessary, but Marx basically outlines all the different socialising institutions and explains how they benefit the capitalist system).

But the key element of Marxism (and the one that's also the hardest to fully understand, IMO) is that the economic base defines the superstructure.
Superstructure was essentially Marx's word for 'culture'. There's a whole debate that's been going for centuries about whether the culture defines how the economy is run, or whether the economy defines how the culture is run, but Marx solidly believed in the latter. This is the key point: change the way the economy works and everything else will change as well.

Also there seems to be some confusion between the difference between 'communism' and 'socialism'. Socialism is not 'commie-lite' or the 'half-way' point.
Marx saw history as a series of revolutions:
From something or rather to feudalism
From feudalism to capitalism
From capitalism to socialism
From socialism to communism
(there were about three or four 'somethings' before feudalism, but I forget what they were).
Marx was not a big fan of socialism. at all.
In feudalism, wealth (land) is owned by the King, rented to the nobles and worked by the serfs.
In capitalism, wealth (the means of production) is owned by private employers, and labour is produced by employees.

In socialism, wealth is all owned by the state. Labour is produced by the population, it goes through the state and is redistributed to the population. It is during this process that all capitalist institutions are purged and that society is freed from capitalism.

In communism, wealth is owned by the population. There is no state because everything is the state. Everyone works for the good of society, and all labour is massively collectivised.


Now that's the theory.

I can't remember which political philosopher said this(I think it was Hobbes or Rousseau), but he pretty much said anarchy was a paradise(everyone helping everyone else out, etc), but since we have invented government, we can never go back. We "fell from Eden". From how you describe it, the same would be true with communism.

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Checksum: I thought about it, I guess I'm striving for my own personal ideals. I'll just project those ideals onto Jesus and say "I'm trying to be like Jesus" so that I won't have to listen to you banter endlessly about me worshipping a false god or some such.

The Last True Evil: Ironically, that's very Christian of you.

There is a big difference between socialism and communism. There are varying degrees of socialism, as is displayed in Europe.

In America we like our taxes low, and there is still a great attachment to "rugged individualism," and personal pride. We don't even want the most minor thought that we may be suckling at Uncle Sam's teet.

Some things may be best socialized or partly so, like the pharmaceutical industry- but that's still an issue I'd need more experience with to have a valid opinion.

In Sweden, for instance, the people like cradle to grave security...that's great, but it's just not the case in America.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

I think it's good. I mean, maybe the world would be a better place if people just socialized a little more.

And stop confusing your -isms, jerks.



I'm pretty sure it *is* the case...

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Shut up. I'm GOING to do this whether you like it or not.

[This message has been edited by Tracer (edited February 13, 2004).]

Tracer, socializing and socialism are two different things.

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Checksum: I thought about it, I guess I'm striving for my own personal ideals. I'll just project those ideals onto Jesus and say "I'm trying to be like Jesus" so that I won't have to listen to you banter endlessly about me worshipping a false god or some such.

The Last True Evil: Ironically, that's very Christian of you.

The problem is that America is too big and too diverse for its own good, and its all goign to tumble down. We live in a nation with right-wing-gun-nuts and we also live in a nation of super-liberals, with everything inbetween. Nobody could fully understand the diversity that exists between Portland, ME and San Francisco, CA. There is simply too much for anyone person to understand. In reality, the same reason why so many people hate Americans is the same reason why so many American's hate the government. There are too many people living in this nation of ours for the state laws to be slowly taken away by federal government. It is time for localized government to return, more than anything, with a federal government which can stop slavery, segregation.

Agh, it would be amazing, wouldn't it?

/ends hope for the future

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To myself I surrender to the one I'll never please.
But I still try to run on.
You know I still try to run on. But it's all or none.

Eddie Vedder

While I agree with that bit, I think it's a bit exaggerated. There is diversity, but not to the point where people are going to war. Different people in different places want different things, but if a threat to the US presents itself, they bind together(WWII and 9/11). The greatest differences I don't think are geographical, but are political. And even then, our political cleavages aren't much compared to some that are in Europe.

But yes, I would like to see more power given to the states.

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Checksum: I thought about it, I guess I'm striving for my own personal ideals. I'll just project those ideals onto Jesus and say "I'm trying to be like Jesus" so that I won't have to listen to you banter endlessly about me worshipping a false god or some such.

The Last True Evil: Ironically, that's very Christian of you.

Yeah. Federal government can do some good things with civil rights, like giving slaves the rights of free men (or at least trying) and also giving rights to women. I wonder how long it'll take before they give the right to live to unborn kids?

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Ω of 14

Where did I imply that Eversor said America should turn Communistic? Eversor wants Socialistic policies to be introduced in America. I said Socialism doesn't work. What point am I missing? I stated that I don't think his point will work; in retrospect, my opinion might not have been clear enough for every one to understand.

To put it simply, I don't think Socialistic policies work. As long as humans act human, Socialism can never be fully instituted.

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[This message has been edited. Deal with it.]

I think there are some blind claims of things being 'natural' here. 'Human nature' is an oxymoron. Human beings are not bound by instinct like other animals; that is the key to why humans are different. It's quite simply really.. If humans DID rely entirely on instinct, we'd all be dead. Humans aren't strong, or fast, or big, or small, or scary, or poisonous, or have claws or sharp teeth.. Physically, human beings are quite pathetic. So, in the same way the gazelle evolved to be run faster (in that the slow-running gazelle would all die before they could reproduce), human beings evolved to be less reliant on insinct and be able to adapt to the environment, and most importantly, work together (in that the humans that did try to rely on physical attributes would all die). The same can be seen, to a much lesser extent, in dolphins (which are also quite unimpressive physically).

So, what does that leave us with? Human beings that can be socialised. Human beings that can be shaped and moulded like a piece of clay on a potter's wheel. There is no 'natural' in it anywhere. You need only look at the tremendous cultural diversity throughout the world; the only universal values that can be attached throughout are:
1 - Food
2 - Reproduction
(and even that is only an assumption)
Any other universalisation will be flawed and can be countered by cross-cultural comparison..
For example, you could say 'All humans live in families', but this would neglect the Israeli kibbutz.
But they are all the same creatures.

So to say something is 'human nature' is utterly incorrect, because it will only apply to one particular society because norms and values do not remain constant at all.
You live in capitalist society, where greed and individualism is valued. That does not make greed 'natural'. Asian culture is a perfect counter, where life is much more community-based. Working for the benefit of the community is valued; greed does not benefit that society.
(Of course, I am making generalisations here, some Asian countries will be less so than others.. But even in super-capitalist Japan, society is still community-based, with 'losing face' being the greatest shame, and altruistic suicide is not uncommon. The more agricultural countries, like Laos or Vietnam, would be more community-centred. This is also proof that capitalism is merely an economic system, and allows for a lot of flexibility socially. Though Marx probably wouldn't agree with that.)

That was tried before. It was called the Articles of Confederation. However, it lasted some - what, three? Four years? Then everyone realized how stupid it was to place an emphasis on local governments and remove almost all power of the federal government.

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it || The Link of the Dead

Its not that they simply realized "it was stupid". Its that the federal government/state government was too unbalanced in power, and the federal government couldn't really regulate anything at all. It was what, 1777 that the Article of the Confederations was instated.. the nation was pretty much nothing. However now, America is a powerful nation, and I think it would be easier to move towards state rights than start there from the begining..Thats purely speculation, though.

Regardless, America does not have a national healthcare, and I have no idea why so many people want to pay fot there doctors for themselves rather than have the government pay for it.

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To myself I surrender to the one I'll never please.
But I still try to run on.
You know I still try to run on. But it's all or none.

Eddie Vedder

Because the government doesn't pay for it. People do, with an increase in taxes. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - if you've got anything greater than a broken arm that needs mending in Canada, your best bet is in the States, because the waiting lines are ridiculous in Canada.

I even saved this page for proof that Canada's system is insufficient for major operations. Let's not even begin to think of the number of people who would be put out of a job if insurance companies lost the majority of their clients.

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it || The Link of the Dead