http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=NW_1-T&oldflok=FF-APO-1104&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20031207%2F044599041.htm&sc=1104&photoid=20031203XAR101

It's things like this that make me want to jump off a cliff.

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The Matrix: Unplugged

No, it's things like this that make you want to push a U.S. president off a cliff...

JediKirby

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

and it's things like that that are exactly WHY the US are being attacked by resistance fighters.

It's things like people getting upset about this that make me want to jump off a cliff.

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Do you have stairs in your house?

I wouldn't say it's something to merely blow off.

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
Jack Chick preaches it
NMGOH

Collatreal damage.

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"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
-Robert Jastrow

Is it worth it, though?

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The Matrix: Unplugged

That depends on whether you are the family of the kids

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I hate kids.

I don't see the logic in woeing over the little kids. There were more than 70 of OUR United States Army soldiers killed during the rest of the war. I know 70 ain't much for a war, but if you saw a dead US soldier and then a dead kid, which one would to really care for more? The one who died for YOU, or the kid who just died. I guess if you have to worry about something, then whatever. It's all media induced.

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Chester went to school and said
"Durn, I growed another head!"
Teacher said "It's time you knowed,
The word is grew, instead of growed."

- A round of applause for Shel Silverstein

That really wasn't the point. I was questioning U.S. tactics--we're no better than the terrorists at this point.

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The Matrix: Unplugged

Of course not. It's a war- both sides fight for what they believe. There's no right or wrong side, there's no justification to any of it. But it happens, just like car wrecks. Get over it already...

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Do you have stairs in your house?

[This message has been edited by Correction (edited December 07, 2003).]

Well, the soldier was prepared to die, he chose that path, on the other hand the kid was denied that very choice

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I hate kids.

Finally the US does something right. Damn kids.

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June 16 - A night to remember
Ex-Council of 14
Miken
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself?"

The soldier has had the opportunity to live for 18+ years and accepts the fact that by doing his job he might provoke his demise and eventually die. The small kid in comparison had his entire life ahead of him, probably never did anything to anybody and lacked the choice.

Mustn't laugh. *snigger* No seriously Miken you're evil. EVIL!

But, from Dubya's perspective, he's willing to sacrifice ALL the Middle Eastern children, if it means bringing just ONE of them TEWAWISTS down! Yeeehaaa! Back in the ol' West we shoot dem indians. Now we shoot dem Middle Eastern folk who are all probably terrorists! Maybe not all, but lets not take chances!
Oh wait some Persians and Arabs live in Europe now! Bomb Britain. Sorry Tony. We can't take any chances in our war against those who threaten our freedom. No hard feelings eh?

Woo I'm on a roll!

Yeh Bush sucks.

Did you see those images from the US marines? F**ing torturing Al-Queada SUSPECTS! If the Dubyaa and his US government stand for justice and freedom, we're all F*ing screwed.

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Even the mightiest of men are crippled by love.

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

And what would you do, ruthervain? Because I'm sure that everybody here most certainly knows everything there is to know on BOTH sides of the story, AND would have done a much better job if you were in his position.

Please, folks. For just ONCE can't you consider that just MAYBE the politicians DO know more than you?

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Do you have stairs in your house?

No. Because that would mean the world doesn't revolve around them and their ideas.

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Brain returned and the people rejoiced.
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Free Mikus!

Newsflash. My concept of the real world is limited to a dimension or 1.2 inches cubed.
Plus I'm bitter.

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Even the mightiest of men are crippled by love.

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

No doubt people there knew the guy was a terrorist, if they're gonna harbor terrorists then this will happen obviously.

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"We came, we saw, we conquered, we...woke up!"

Because as we know, he aimed it.



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saberopus
oh yeh wlel i jsut gots finesht wiht my morrwoind mod for teh JO An it takes up teh 900 gigabiets of spaec but i wlil not sowh yuo gyz teh scrnshoots becasue we dunat kare wut u gyz tihnk ne1 no wear i kan get ti hostad 4 dounlowd!!!!11!111 --Checksum

the kid. the kid didn't know what he was getting into. Hopefully the soldier did. I expect people to realize that a civilian dying (on ANY side) is much worse than a soldier dying.


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saberopus
oh yeh wlel i jsut gots finesht wiht my morrwoind mod for teh JO An it takes up teh 900 gigabiets of spaec but i wlil not sowh yuo gyz teh scrnshoots becasue we dunat kare wut u gyz tihnk ne1 no wear i kan get ti hostad 4 dounlowd!!!!11!111 --Checksum

100% wrong.



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saberopus
oh yeh wlel i jsut gots finesht wiht my morrwoind mod for teh JO An it takes up teh 900 gigabiets of spaec but i wlil not sowh yuo gyz teh scrnshoots becasue we dunat kare wut u gyz tihnk ne1 no wear i kan get ti hostad 4 dounlowd!!!!11!111 --Checksum

Only 50% wrong. Dude, we may stand for freedom and justice, and we aint a bunch of insane wierdo's wanting to die and to take as many infidels with us...wait what point was I making? Oh yeah, unless you haven't noticed, US bombs have killed countless civilians in Afghan and Iraq- women and children, in so called war-against-terrorism strikes. Its all bull. The West kills innocents in the Middle East. The M.E terrorists kill innocents in the West. We both believe we are on the side of God or Allah, and on the side of good, and that the enemy is the epitome of evil.
We're slightly less insane, but we're not that much better than them. I speak of the governments and groups of course, not the people of the two sides

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Even the mightiest of men are crippled by love.

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

Patriots always talking about dieing for there country, not killing for there country.

-Call of Duty

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Gamers forced into direct sun light for first time burst into flames.

sorry ruthervain. US bombs that kill civilians are the result of poor implementation of plan, not of a zeal to instill fear in the opposition by causing mayhem and destruction.

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saberopus
oh yeh wlel i jsut gots finesht wiht my morrwoind mod for teh JO An it takes up teh 900 gigabiets of spaec but i wlil not sowh yuo gyz teh scrnshoots becasue we dunat kare wut u gyz tihnk ne1 no wear i kan get ti hostad 4 dounlowd!!!!11!111 --Checksum

...there are always going to be civlians around. It's collateral damage. It may have been possible to prevent some of it, but it's difficult when the enemy is intenionally putting civilians around them to make us look bad.

So really, don't give me that "omg, a civlian died!!" crap. WWII? Vietnam? Hello? Do you know anything about past wars?

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

[This message has been edited by Emon (edited December 07, 2003).]

The incident is a horrible one, no doubt. However, the cause can hardly be pointed to the president. The blame falls on the one coordinating the actual airstrike.

And I agree with saberopus on his last point. There's quite a large difference in what has happened and what terrorists do. The overall purpose of a terrorist is to kill innocents. What we did was (hopefully) accidental with the purpose of only killing one who would kill innocents.

Ruthervain - When Bush decides to drop nuclear bombs on two cities, then I'll acknowledge your complaints.

[This message has been edited by Morfildor (edited December 07, 2003).]

I think the civilian deaths, or collateral damage if that makes you feel better, are probably 10 times the US military personell deaths.

Lets just get this straight one more time. It's been mentioned and ignored a million times. Afghanistan is not at war with the US. The Taliban government is no longer in power. A warlord of the US's choice is now in power. If there is no war, there is no collateral damage. Just murder.

Is it all worth it? It's not for any of you to comment on or decide. You are neither there fighting nor are your families being bombed. The Taliban and Al Queida (sp) are on the run. You sit and watch it on CNN in your warm living rooms, eating as much as you want, stepping out to go wherever you want without fear of a bunker buster being dropped on your head and you have the nerve to say it's all a part of war when thousands of civilians get killed. Ask those civilians and families if it's worth it. They may say yes. You never know. But don't even think about pretending you know what is going on or whether it's worth it. You haven't got the slightest idea in the world nor will you ever understand what it must be like.

That's not just for Chuck. That's for anyone who automatically assumes what the US does is right without haveing a clue what's going on. Which, btw, is pretty much everyone who posts on these forums, including me.

US soldiers lost thier lives protecting you. Yeah. Sometimes they do. But in this case I really don't think so. As mentioned above and on both the CBC and BBC, and I'm sure other broadcasters around the world (except for CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS...), it most likely endanged your lives just a bit more.

Oh and about past wars? Lets look at the cause and effect. Of those wars before we start comparing whats happening today.
WWI and WWII - definatley worth it. The whole world was pretty much involved.
Vietnam - wth was that all about. Not worth one soldiers life never mind a civilians life.
Gulf War 1 - worth it. That jackass invaded a country to take over and plunder.


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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.

[This message has been edited by Darth Evad (edited December 07, 2003).]

I'm not debating if things could've been more coordinated, but I got a general flavor that a lot of you are mad that any civilians died. But maybe I missed something.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

[This message has been edited by Emon (edited December 07, 2003).]

Well, when bombs are dropped, civillians die.
It's the dropping of bombs that is in question.
IMO anyway.

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.

Oh, okay.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

R.I.P.

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Council of Krok

Absolutely not. Who put them in power?

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Shut up. I'm GOING to do this whether you like it or not.

Old people.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

You know what's really frightening is that I'll be old enough to vote next election

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Do you have stairs in your house?

How is that frigtening?

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

Another ignorant american to add to the chaos

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Do you have stairs in your house?

There was this interview with a Middle East correspondant on BBC News a while ago, who was talking about the media in the middle east. He said that the media, and the countries in the middle east, basically supported the US and the war on terror, and that the few newspapers that were critical of America were in the minority.

I was in Egypt a few weeks ago, and I had the pleasure of talking to a lot of people, and reading a lot of newspapers. I picked up about a dozen different newspapers, and not a single one had any remotely pro-American reports, save for one movie reviews section talking about a few American films. The language in the reports varied from the cynical to the downright violent, and Egypt is one of the more pro-western middle eastern countries (it relies a lot on tourism). Also very interestingly, none of them ever used the word 'terrorist', unless it were to mock the western media for its use of the word; they always used the names of the appropriate groups, never the Bushist generalisation for them all.

The people I talked to were extremely friendly, and not at all worried to express their concern for matters in Iraq, and their hatred for the US, Israel and jews in general. I asked them 'but that is in Palestine, there is no threat to Egypt' and they told me quite simply 'Egypt, Palestine - we are brothers'. In the middle east, it is not patriotism that unites the people, it is Islam, and from the people I talked to, an attack on their neighbours is an attack on them.

In Palestine, Hamas and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade have majority support, and there were a few articles in the various Egyptian newspapers I found that defended the suicide bombings (such things didn't feature a whole lot, though, as I went during Ramadan and the newspapers were mostly reporting the various festivals). Those that commit the actual bombings may be in the minority, but they are certainly not hated in the Middle East. I think it is only surprising that there are not more people that take up arms. If Britain and America continue the way they do, I think more will, a lot more.

you sound proud of it. educate yourself in current events and politics if you plan to vote, i say.

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saberopus
oh yeh wlel i jsut gots finesht wiht my morrwoind mod for teh JO An it takes up teh 900 gigabiets of spaec but i wlil not sowh yuo gyz teh scrnshoots becasue we dunat kare wut u gyz tihnk ne1 no wear i kan get ti hostad 4 dounlowd!!!!11!111 --Checksum

I agree 100%. Will someone please tell why we used a bomb that cost in the thousand+ dollars to kill one terrorist when a $3-$4 (if even that) sniper rifle shell could of accomplished the same thing WITHOUT civilian casualties?



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Try not, do; or do not.