http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_3_how_hip_hop.html
This is a very interesting and insightful article about hip hop culture.
I don't think the article makes it obvious, but the writer is black.
Contains profanity.

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MadQuack has a signature.

Thanks man. It is late, but I will definently give it a read tomorrow.

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In Tribute to Adam Sliger. Rest in Peace

10/7/85 - 12/9/03

Good read, and I agree with every word it.

Every day, I have to put up with 4 guys (in a class of only 8 people) who love to imitate their favorite hip-hop artists. The gestures, the lyrics... it's so depressing that they can't do anything but imitate their favorite rappers.

The world is a strange place.

[Edit: And ubuu, looking forward to your reply tomorrow. It'll be interesting to hear someone's opinion who's already so close to the issue.]

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All the prism in the world couldn't make hue.

[This message has been edited by Vincent Valentine (edited February 26, 2004).]

cop killer is not even rap it would go more under hardcore, punk, or metal depending on who you ask (and also while Ice-T wrote the lyrics Body Count was the band)

anyway i agree with alot of the points made in the article

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wang is within all

I agree somewhat vbut also disagree somewhat. I think the message of some rap isn't so great, promoting drugs and violence and such, but hip-hop is not the main reason for the problems that back communities face today. There is also a good deal of "white" music that has violent lyrics and messages. It just doesn't get the media attention that rap or hip-hop do.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Yeah right, remember the "heavy-metal = satan worshipping" crap of the 80s? Oh wait, you probably don't.

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EvilMagic.net: Brian's Web Log

i vaguely remember it... but we are talking about now not the 80s...

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wang is within all

That artcile reminded me of a song I heard a little while ago by Young MC called Stress Test. It basically had a go at all those rappers referred to in the article. I thought it great especially the line:

"I dont need to steal purses, lace rhymes with curses or snort **** between verses"

Trends repeat themselves. We just had a thread on satanic reversed lyrics in the 60s/70s. Brian just mentioned the 80s, this [journalist? doctor? concerned parent?] is talking about the 90s and Eminem has been profiting off it in the 00s.

I only wish I had a time machine so I could go back and hear parents in the 1800s complain about young boys talking back because they've been listening to too much Turkey in the Straw.

As long as shock art is effective it will appeal to young people trying to establish their identity. When a 12 year old is saying, "shoot the cops," they're really saying, "shoot my parents." It's part of becoming an individual and an adult, you have to seperate yourself from your parents/guardians. Part of that process might be challenging authority figures. Do you honestly think every person who likes a song about shooting cops is actually going to go out and do it?

From how I see it, this is only natural. If your children do not seek out negative influences, if they do not check the boundaries of what is acceptable, in short if they do not rebel, then in my opinion that's when you should be afraid.

I don't like Hip Hop. And it really annoys me that people just, to me, act like pillocks in fromt of everyone just to get what seems like attention. I think it's also that I don't go pouring my music on to other people, and I have known others to get stressed when they've been asked to turn it down.

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The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot stay in the cradle forever.
-- Konstantin Tsiolkovsky, The Father of Rocketry

It's more of the mainstream MTV style rap is that ruining everything. Long gone are the days when rap had meaning and messages. There are a only few artists that still continue that trend but more have retired or went maistream.

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Massassian since: March 12, 2001

[=-"The hardest thing is to forgive, but God does;
Even if you murdered or robbed, years wrong, but God loves;
Take one step toward him, he takes two toward you;
Even when all else fail, God supports you." - Nas-=]

[This message has been edited by Sol (edited February 27, 2004).]

It's still here.

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Map-Review | Digital Core | The Matrix: Unplugged

Farewell, MaDaVentor. In our hearts, you'll always live on.

So, I went to see a consert at the Concert Hall in Toronto in 1991. It was Ice-T, Hard Corps and a special guest. The special guest was Body Count. It ROKCED!!! It rocked. It was just before the album was released. The guy I went with bought the album as soon as it came out. What an awesome album and an awesome show.

k, back to the topic.

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.
HTP

There's rebellion, then there is all out slaughter of ideals. This isn't the gyrating hips of the freaking 50's, or the free love of the 60's.

Yeah, I remember the songs of the 60's telling you to hate and to kill and, oh, wait. This isn't the same. Shoot their parents? What the hell? Whatever kid thinks that frankly is disturbed. There are actually fine lines here and there, and some should be not crossed.

Just as the man cited in the article the kids are ACTING OUT the "ideals". This isn't harmless listening, this is emulation. I don't know how you can say that this form of music is similar to the ones of the past. Before they weren't so hate filled. Rebellious, yes, Angsty, yes, but this? No.

You can't just excuse everything as a phase. Once in a while there really is something bad that on the surface shares similar characteristics to something harmless, but in reality is a different beast. And I think the article makes that point clear. This isn't temporary rebellion. This is about revolution.

Edit: Stupid UBB...

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http://www.4guys-1dragoon.cjb.net -No porn. We promise*

[This message has been edited by Lord Kuat (edited February 27, 2004).]

I agree with many of the things he said. The only thing I do not agree with is his loosely use of the word "hip-hop". Hip Hop is a culture, the rap is apart of. Everything he says about RAP I can agree with, and too a point is true. How can someone like P. Diddy who grew up middle class, when to Howard, and still act like a thug? That is not right. Hip Hop is composed of bboying, graffit art, beatboxing, and other forms of artistic experssion. I find it insulting that he brings down the whole hip hop word/culture because of one subcategory. I bet ya'll didnt know one of your respected Massassian was a break dancer/bboy? I wont say names, im not if he wants everyone to know. If you knew who it was, you would no for sure he wasnt some THUG.


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In Tribute to Adam Sliger. Rest in Peace

10/7/85 - 12/9/03

Alright, I admit it. My mother made me take dance starting when I was 3.



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Baby Mama's Drama

i'd have to agree with this guy all the way



exactly! current society is all about "slaughter of ideals"
i have no idea why... but it's happening and it's the cause of many problems in modern america (yes, other countires as well)

ideals, morals, values, whatever you call them they are what keep a society, a culture, stable.
any thing, be it "hip hop"/"rap" (whatever you want to call it Ubuu), that destroys our values is tearing down society and that is a bad thing.

i really like the fact that the author uses "big words" rather than dumbing down his dialogue, as many journalists do nowadays (sp?)

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why is a raven like a writing desk?

One point -

The hippies of the 60's are now the people in charge during this time of "slaughtering ideals"

I do not find this to be a coincidence.

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Fear is here, where's the beer?

How do you mean in charge? I don't really see a whole lot of hippies / ex-hippies in the government if that's what you mean.

As to the article which Flirb and i were reading through last night before he posted it, yes he uses his terms a bit loosely Ub, but complaining too much about that and you miss the whole point, just do a manual /s/hiphop/rap while reading then and you'll be good to go. Whether or not you can blame all of the various whatever that he references in that article as the direct result of rap, his point at the end i still think very much stands, one would be rather hard-pressed i think to come up with any real unequivocable positive results of mainstream rap or whatever, which i think he does a very good job of outlining.

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
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Oh NO! Don't get me wrong. I really believe what he is saying, but for others who are blind on the terms and words of the culture, misusing the term "hip-hop" can tarnish a wonderful culture excluding the new generation rap.



No, dont insult me by saying "whatever i want to call it". THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. GET IT STRAIGHT. Open your mind. I am not trynig to shove my opinion of the music or whatever, I am just trying to educate you on the terminology so you dont continue to look ignorant.


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In Tribute to Adam Sliger. Rest in Peace

10/7/85 - 12/9/03

[This message has been edited by Ubuu (edited February 27, 2004).]

ewb... don't misunderstand me, i really have no idea what terms are correct and really it's too fluid a thing for the same titles to be used by everyone.
whatever you want to call it is fine, but some people have different terminology, too.

i have no idea what to call those things, so i leave it up to you to fill in the "blanks"

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why is a raven like a writing desk?

No, its not different terminology, its incorrect

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In Tribute to Adam Sliger. Rest in Peace

10/7/85 - 12/9/03

The democratic party is rife with them. Also, they are our businessmen, our local state politicians, our parents of the kids now in High School, etc. It's their generation that is taking the place of the baby boomers right now. I am not saying you will find people who look like hippies everywhere. But look at what the hippie generation was REALLY about. It wasn't about protesting war, peace and love, etc. That is just the rationalization they told themselves to justify their actions. It was about disobedience, and if it feels good do it, and hell with the consequences - we'll just blame someone else if that happens. It was about bucking responsibility and common sense. And you know what? The drugs and clothes may have gone away, but those attitudes are still very much alive in that generation which is now in power today.


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Fear is here, where's the beer?

I agree with Ubuu, it's not Hip-hop that's bad, it's gangster rap. There is a HUGE difference.

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please *

ubuu...
i really couldn't care less.

you are pushing some phrase on me that i don't see any point in using your way.

terms like f-a-g (avoiding censorship; with that word being censored my point is not made) mean one thing here and something very different in europe... it's terminology. to me hip hop and rap are just words that refer to something very alien to me because i'm not a part of it.

if you want me to use the "right term" then i'm still needing some convincing on why YOUR way of saying things is more right than mine...
but quite frankly, i don't care enough about it.

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why is a raven like a writing desk?

[This message has been edited by Is_907 (edited February 27, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Is_907 (edited February 27, 2004).]

Well, if I'm honest, I don't think I could tell the difference between hip-hop and 'gangster rap'. Could you explain the difference to me, perhaps?

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Map-Review | Digital Core | The Matrix: Unplugged

Farewell, MaDaVentor. In our hearts, you'll always live on.

That's fine, Is_907, but there is a major difference and assuming rap and hip hop are the same will get you into trouble. Is it so difficult to be willing to lear a little bit about the terminology for your own benefit. Doing so doesn't mean you have to like rap or hiphop, but you will at least understand what you are talking about.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

the article is directed at hip hop music's worse "talent" and the culture they create. i know many examples of hip hop that is toned down and not so obnoxious.. i mean the Jay Z lyrics in that article to that one song just makesme want to castrate the guy

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[teletubbie voice] BIG HUG!!!! [/teletubbie voice]

Hip-hop is a culture. It includes, graffit art, breakdancing, DeeJaying (which isnt gangsta rap at all), and Emceeing. Gangsta Rap is just a subcategory of Emceeing.

You can be a breakdancer and hate hip-hop. Its totally possible. You can MC, and hate dancers, totally possible. Hip_hop is just a collection of all these things, making it one big culture.

Is_907: If you dont care enough to know the difference, you are ignorant, and do not insult hip hop by continuing to misuse the word just because you "dont care"

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In Tribute to Adam Sliger. Rest in Peace

10/7/85 - 12/9/03

Thanks for the explanation, Ubuu. Makes a lot more sense to me now.

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Map-Review | Digital Core | The Matrix: Unplugged

Farewell, MaDaVentor. In our hearts, you'll always live on.

Anytime.

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In Tribute to Adam Sliger. Rest in Peace

10/7/85 - 12/9/03

Technically, using 'hip hop' to refer to rap isn't misusing the word, since it is one of the definitions.

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MadQuack has a signature.

Exactly, it's a subcategory, therefore can be refered to as hip-hop. It's like saying Lord of the Rings is fantasy, but fantasy is not Lord of the Rings.

Or, we could use the example taught in Geometry classes. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square.

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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Ok true, but I think it is unfair to other aspects of hip hop to use the term hip hop in a negative manner when you are just refering to rap.

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In Tribute to Adam Sliger. Rest in Peace

10/7/85 - 12/9/03

Have at it! And his little dog too!

Err I mean Beyonce.

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"We came, we saw, we conquered, we...woke up!"

Some examples to back your argument if you will? And you still haven't adressed the fact that while they were rebelling, it was in a much tamer sense. Really man, I think they did care to some extent. While it is natural to rebel, how many kids you see "rebelling" to world war two. It was a war they felt was unjust at the time in the 60's case. As I said, there are fine lines. Not everything can be blindly crossed in the name of a phase kids go through. Then again, by that sense, the world should be in an eternal downward spiral. The young generation wishing to tear things down the old built up. I think a health culture has people who want to improve current instutions, renovate certain things so they are better, and innovate new ideas that would revolutionize the culture in a good way. Blah blah, this kinda went no where.

Oh yeah, and thanks for the clarification Ubuu. Nice to have some terms solidly defined in a discussion.

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http://www.4guys-1dragoon.cjb.net -No porn. We promise*

Brian - The difference is the results the music is having. I mean, you'd be a fool to think that heavy metal *didn't* lead to some kids becoming satanists - Only thing is, the average satanist is about as threatening as a puppy dog. Music very much does influence the listener, and when you grow up listening to the angriest, most hate-filled music ever created, it's gonna have an effect on you. I'm not saying that rap is gonna turn kids into cold-blooded murderers, but it *does* on a regular basis, instill in them the idea that they have to be 'hard' to be cool.

I've seen countless critics and people talk about how Tupac was a good, strong role-model for young black males. He was murdered over an east coast/west coast rivalry. A millionaire, with the world at his finger-tips, and he gets shot dead because he and other rappers are arrogant and petty. That's a great role-model for young black males. Rappers are continually getting arrested for violent crimes - Snoop Dog robbed a liquor store like a year or two after he made it big - What the ****** would you rob a liquor store for if you're a millionaire??

I just think it's foolish to think that these 'role-models' who every young black male I've ever met looks up to, aren't having a negative effect. Rap may not make a kid go rob a liquor store, but it *is* gonna make him yell out "Aw hell naw, **** you pig!" to a cop. It *is* gonna screw up his attitude towards women. It *is* gonna make him think that the only way to be cool is to emulate this ridiculous thug-lifestyle.

As to heavy metal - Like I said, you know as well as I do that it *did* turn some kids into satanists. And it very much has an effect on kids in other ways. Every metal-head I've ever known, you excluded, was into drugs. It just comes with the scene. The same way that you see Buddy Holly style glasses at a Dashboard Confessional show, you'll see green hair and drugs at a Cannibal Corpse show. Music affects people more than anything else in our culture.

Wow, Slug, haven't seen you in a while. Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but it's nice to have you back.



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All the prism in the world couldn't make hue.

I would fault lyrics rather than the genre of music. As a Christian, I listen to so-called Christian music. There are Christian artists in pretty much every form of music, including heavy metal and hip hop, and none of them is producing homicidal crack heads (or either of each). The difference is in the lyrics.

[edits: clarification]

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Young men make wars, and the virtues of war are the virtues of young men: courage and hope for the future. Then old men make the peace, and the vices of old men are the vices of peace: mistrust and caution. It must be so.

-Laurence of Arabia

[This message has been edited by Yen (edited February 28, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Yen (edited February 28, 2004).]

The thing is, this writer is refering to Rap, or even more specificly 'gangster rap', even though he uses the general term hip-hop. he is talking about the lyrics, that is his whole argument: that the lyrics from this particlar type of music is very damaging to younger generations.

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"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
-Outlaw Star
"Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul"
-Tycho, Penny Arcade
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