The Gates Of Hell Are Now Open.

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

I want you to say that isolated attacks by Israeli extremists are comparable in scale and implication to Palestinian suicide bombing. Can you do it without hesitating?

Go back and read what you wrote - IDF soldiers are rarely punished for killing civilians. Yet they are punished, when they're found to have intentionally targeted them, because it is expressly forbidden by the IDF's ethical code.

Compare



to



and tell me the IDF and Hamas are the same.

What you're saying is somehow, the fact that civilians are sometimes killed in IDF operations makes them comparable to terrorist organizations who send young men and women (kids, even!) with explosives into restaurants with the express purpose of murdering innocent people.

Calm down, mate! I know what I wrote.

You implied that Israeli extremists don't bomb mosques and I proved that wrong. I'm not going to compare the two groups because the Palestinians don't have the world's forth largest army on their side.

To compare them by policy alone is silly. Even IDF soldiers would laugh off that fluff. What actually happpens is very different to what's stated.

AFAIK, Hamas has never used kids as suicide bombers. Got any proof?

Name an attack, that went unpunished, where the IDF purposely targeted civilians. As in, they went out with the intent to specifically kill civilians. It wouldn't be too hard for me to find an incidence where a Hamas terrorist purposely set off a bomb in an area in order to kill innocents.

Baruch Goldstein was an individual. Meir Kahane was an individual. Hamas, al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Islamic Jihad, Hizbullah, Fatah, etc, are all groups.

Also, what does comparative size have to with this discussion? Hamas could be a military superpower and the fact would remain that they purposefully target civilians.

You've written off what happens in pratice - cafe bombings vs. civilians killed in raids against militants, as well as policy - Hamas vows to destroy Israel, Israel vows to avoid civilian deaths. You completely reject any means by which the morality of the two groups' actions can be compared, because it is inconceivable to you that Hamas and the IDF are not morally equivalent.

IDF intercepts 12 year-old suicide bomber.

It may have been Hamas, Fatah, al Aqsa, or any number of other groups. What does it matter?

Why the sudden interest in not killing civilians? I don't see you pointing fingers over the dresden/tokyo firebombings and hiroshima/nagasaki.

On another note about children suicide bombers.... just saw on the news some kid from palestine was caught at a checkpoint with explosives under his shirt... anybody care to pick up and add detail to this?

Its events like this which make particular arguments in this thread much clearer and defined..... I don't see in any way how exactly you can compare a military force to people who behave like this... and I expect that behaviour like this will increase a severe amount because of recent events.

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Drugs & Stupidity, Tons of it.

Why would he bring up events from WW2?

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Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

Not just individuals, Goldstein was a member of the extremist Kach party, and Kahane was it's leader!

Comparitive size means everything! Suicide attacks are the last resort of people facing an overwhelming enemy. That's obvious! What else have they got to attack with? That would be funny if it wasn't so depressing. Get off your moral high horse, Sine! Like any army, they have goals they strive to achieve. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, it's Sharon who's settings those goals.

Those kids are mostly "mules", not suicide bombers. They just use them to get explosives through checkpoints. The Yassin attack! It killed seven bystanders, and if you think the pilots will be prosecuted, your dreaming! Obviously, they don't officially target civilians, but they don't seem to care if they get in the way.

Alright, this is getting boring. Got any final arguments for me to smack back at you?

[This message has been edited by UGG (edited March 24, 2004).]

If they're going to be martyred by dying in the fight against Israel regardless, why don't they attack military targets? Hamas' valiant crusade against the restaurants, buses and nightclubs of Israel may raise morale, but it doesn't have much of a practical purpose.



I like how you didn't actually say anything, much less reply meaningfully to what I said. That's some grade A sophistry right there.

Of course the IDF's primary goal is to defend Israeli interests, which is why they don't prosecute soldiers who kill civilians unintentionally. That has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the fact that they do not seek out civilian targets for destruction! You cannot be that thick.

And, seemingly for your benefit, a Palestinian terror organization sent another would-be child bomber to an Israeli checkpoint. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3565607.stm . Was he a mule also? ..Not like it matters, though, 'cause using kids for weapons smuggling is totally cool..



... Wait..wait..you quote me where I ask for an attack that specifically targets innocent civilians and come up with an example that you yourself admit doesn't...you..you wanna try again?



[This message has been edited by Sine Nomen (edited March 24, 2004).]

Aaaarrrrrgh. I shouldn't have checked out this thread before going to bed. Some of the comments here make my blood boil. I doubt I'll fall asleep now.

Ugg, I respect your opinion, but I'm sorry to say you know absolutely nothing about what you're talking about. I'm referring to the following comments:


I can't tell what's worse, your ignorance or your arrogance. I'm not going to argue with you about your opinion on suicide bombings, if you think they're some kind of "heroic last resort" for an oppressed people it shows your complete lack of understanding of the situation, but I won't get into that now. I will, however, shoot down your rediculous comments about IDF ethics.

I'm an IDF soldier. A sergeant in the Israel Navy, in service for two years now. You blatantly throw baseless accusations without actually backing up any of it. I'm sure you'll be able to pull out incriminating images from all over the web, but that you won't make you see the big picture. Moral and ethical standards in the IDF are probably the highest in any active army in the world, but you'd never begin to understand that. It's not really your fault, since you're only exposed to biased reporting and Arab propaganda, which, unfortunately, gets too much exposure in the media nowadays. The fact that you actually believe that we are anything like Hamas sadly points to the fact that Israel fails in it's attempts to show the true face of matters to the international public.

The three ideals that the IDF idealogy is based upon (and which I was taught on my first day at boot camp) are love of your country, victory in battle, and respect for human rights. From day one in uniform soldiers are educated to respect and understand the human aspect of war, and how any bloodshed that is not absolutely necessary for protecting lives should be avoided at all costs. I trust you'll make an ironic remark about that, but I personally knew three people who were killed because they avoided violence towards militants. In one case a militant (euphemism for terrorist) pretended to surrender, allowed the troops to advance toward him in order to arrest him, and then blew himself up, killing several soldiers along with himself. Soldiers who fail to comply with this ethical code are severly and harshly dealt with, and I'm not talking only about violence. I'm talking about making overly intrusive searches in homes (often a necessity because wanted terrorists force their way into- and hide in civilian homes), unnecessarily detaining civilians, or confiscating personal items.

As for Yassin, one Friday sermon of his was enough to recruit another 100 brainwashed youths to blow themselves up among Israeli civilians (while keeping the Hamas leaders nice and safe). After 15 years of trying to stop his actions in a peaceful manner, only one choice was left.


Yes. This morning. And a million other examples with much younger kids, examples you wouldn't know about because they happen so often (read: a few times a day) it's not worth reporting on international networks.

Again, I don't expect you to understand because you've never lived here. There are such deep cultural differences between us and the Arab world that one has to be personally exposed to the cultural clash in order to fully grasp the situation.

I could on much longer and argue my case much more convincing manner, but I really need some sleep. I'm sure you'll criticize me for not saying anything about Jewish extremists, so I'll refer to that next time I post.

I hope my words will make you rethink some of your comments, but I doubt it.

Forget it, Fardreamer! There is no way I'm going to debate an IDF sergeant. I can't get passed that level of commitment. Also, this thread is starting to get nasty and it's better if we end it.

I don't think suicide bombings are heroic. I think they are awful acts carried out by angry and desperate people.

Sine, I'm surprised you don't understand the purpose of the bombings. It's to lower the Israelis' morale and cause political change. That would be impossible if only military targets were attacked.

I have never said the IDF seeks out civilians. I would agree that on many occasions they have been reckless to the point of indifference. You gotta admit, assassination by helicopter gunship is a uniquely Israeli concept.

Another child bomber? There are millions of them you say? Sure...so why is the media making such a big deal of this one?

You say that as if you agree with Hamas' & co. method of inacting political change. You also seem to forget that Hamas' wants Isreal wiped off the map. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, al-Aqsa, they would absolutely have the best day of their lives if one of their flags flies over every Israli installation. They hate Isreal. They hate everything that Isreal stands for.

Civilians die in wars. That's a given fact. It's tragic but true. IDF never wants to intentially target civilians. That's morally wrong. Hamas, however, makes sure that the ones who cannot defend themselves die. I'm sure you can even see how incredibly cowardice that practice is.

I'm done.

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<scribbly handwriting barely resembling name>

... So, basically UGG, you won't argue with someone who actually knows what they're talking about? Fair enough policy.

Why would the media make note of a child bomber? Because it was a slow news day? Because a naive reporter who'd never seen anything like that decided that was gonna be their big scoop? Why, when children are abducted daily in the US, do we only hear about the occasional one? I'm sure the same can be said for any country, and any sort of news article.

And assassination by gunship isn't unique to the Israeli's - It's been done by the US with predator drones too. Total air supremacy is a useful tool.

And frankly, 'political change' can never, ever be reason enough to purposefully murder hundreds of people. Especially when, as has been pointed out, that political change involves the complete erradication of a group of people.

Is that a reason to wipe out their leadership? The PLO wanted the same thing just 5 years ago. Hamas is a big organisation and many Palestinians rely on their humanitarian work.

During the late 90's, before the 2nd intifada, there were almost no bombings. Strange, you'd expect a lot more if they were really out to destroy Israel.


[This message has been edited by UGG (edited March 24, 2004).]

Ghandi. King, Jr. Mandela. Do any of these names ring a bell?

[ Edit ] Oh, and it's nice to see you again, Fardreamer. [ /Edit ]

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it

[This message has been edited by Wolfy (edited March 24, 2004).]

Every situation is unique. In fact, the ANC had a guerrilla unit that was involved in a lot of bombings and killings.

Proof? Having not heard of this, it'd be an interesting read, to say the least.

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it

[This message has been edited by Wolfy (edited March 24, 2004).]

...Yes, the ANC was involved in violent activity - it had a militant wing. It also had Nelson ****ing Mandela.

Where is the PLO's Nelson Mandela?



Is this really all you have to contribute? You've been confronted with overwhelming evidence that Hamas targets Israeli civilans and exists for the express purpose of wiping Israel off the map - they have said as much, and yet you still contend that the IDF and Hamas are morally equivalent.

Why?

It's well known that Nelson Mandela went militant. It's in his autobiography.

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Flibbledy-dibbledy! Nyaaaaaaaahhh!

-The Last True Evil

Alright, but you can Google your own proof next time.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/201455.stm

No, that's too simplistic! You're only concerned with policies that make the IDF look like a white knight, but you're ignoring the evidence from human rights groups.

[This message has been edited by UGG (edited March 24, 2004).]

Read the article. It talks about a bunch of other case where minors were used as suicide bombers.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

That's all well and good that Ms. Mandela's bodyguards carried out abductions and killings, but I fail to see how that is proof of Nelson Mandela's involvement, let alone what any of that has to do with Israeli gunships blowing up wheelchaired scum.


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please *

As best i know from contemperory world history courses and the like, Mandela basically totally split off from and denounced his wife specifically for those practices, because she took that militant extreme stance and he was dedicated to a more peaceful process..

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

Ahem, nice to see you standing up for your opinions.



Because it's the first to happen after the Yassin termination. If you had read the article I had posted you'd have seen the following paragraph:




That's your problem. All your smart comments are based on the bits of news you pick up from newspapers, TV and websites, and there are always going to be articles that can prove one thing or another. I'm not trying to sound nasty, but it's simply the truth: you don't have any real understanding of the situation.

I think one of the main problems arises from the misconception that the IDF is an army made up of tough, hardened killing machines. The IDF is not some sort of isolated entity with it's own hard-line policies. The IDF is not a volunteer army, and does not consist of a majority of uneducated people from lower social standings that have committed their life to the military, as is often the case in Western armies. Every 18-year-old fresh out of highschool is drafted, and most able-bodied persons are sent to combat outfits. The result is that the fighting wing of the IDF reflects the opinions and values of the general Israeli public, which are based on the constant striving for peace. In Israel the IDF is referred to as "the people's army", because every civilian has been involved one way or another with the military during his life.

That's why comments such as "To compare them by policy alone is silly. Even IDF soldiers would laugh off that fluff" shows complete ignorance.

[This message has been edited by Fardreamer (edited March 25, 2004).]

Even if they are comparable to (or even worse than) what Hamas are doing? They've (illegally) evicted hundreds (if not thousands) of Palestinians, (illegally) bulldozed their homes, (illegally) set up settlements (which is essentially an invasion of Palestinian territory) and destroyed any chance of a sustainable economy by cutting off Palestine so completely and by refusing famers acccess to their crops (and barring them with the wall) The Israelis don't allow Palestine to have an effective government or armed force, so how, exactly, are they meant to defend themselves from Israeli incursions? You forget that it is the Israelis who are in violation of international law in the first place.

Does that, in any way, justify suicide bombings (just as suicide bombings don't justify the killing of Palestinians or the stealing of their land)? No, of course not, but it certainly explains it.

Allowing Israel to "do what they have to" is not only legally flawed, morally repugnant and validating what is essentially ethnic cleansing, but it will only lead to more violence.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1177331,00.html

[This message has been edited by CookedHaggis (edited March 25, 2004).]

I've been witholding this picture, because I enjoy a good debate, but this is getting old. Photographic evidence that the IDF is superior to any army or militant group in the world, morally, or any other way you want to judge.

She's pretty.

Fardreamer..... How about helpin' a guy out? Your army can't be *that* big.. I know you're in the Navy and all, but... Hook a guy up. Lemme get her digits - I don't even mind the long distance charges.

[This message has been edited by Slug (edited March 25, 2004).]

Are you submissive?

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"Music is the universal language and the
dialect we speak in is Hip Hop!" - King Solomon

I'm up for anything. There *is* a sexiness to a woman with a gun.

...depends where it's aimed.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1 & 2 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

I bet she knows Krav Maga and doesn't even need a lame gun

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"Music is the universal language and the
dialect we speak in is Hip Hop!" - King Solomon

[This message has been edited by Molgrew (edited March 25, 2004).]

Do you think that might be for reasons of, say, relevance?

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"Why aren't I'm using at these pictures?" - Cloud, 4/14/02

The following is an excerpt from the obituary of Thomas Peter Hurndall, born November 27 1981; died January 13 2004, as published in The Guardian newspaper in February 2004 . I wish I didn't have to post so much of it (as it may labour the point and face accusations of exploitation), but if I didn't include all the main details there would be too many questions left unanswered. This means there may be some essentially superfluous information too, but I'm uneasy at cutting up an obituary more than I have to. I realise some details are unclear (such as why exactly the IDF were firing in the first place), but an example was repeatedly demanded, and since this also touches on the wider conflict, here it is:

"In Jordan, he encountered the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), whose volunteers - committed to non-violence - were working with the Palestinians as they faced the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. By foot, taxi and bus, Tom set off for Gaza, with the aim of recording what he saw.
...
The practise of ISM members in Rafah was, while waving their passports, to accompany Palestinians as they attempted to restore water supplies, and telecommunications shot up by the IDF, and to prevent the demolition of houses. On April 11 2003 Tom, dressed in a flurescent orange ISM vest, was at the end of a Rafah street observing the earthen mound where a score of children were playing. As IDF rifle fire hit the mound, the children fled. But three, aged between four and seven, were paralysed by fear.
Tom, having taken a boy to safety, returned for the girls. He was hit in the head by a single bullet, fired by an IDF soldier. After a two-hour delay on the border, Tom was taken to a specialist hospital in Be'ersheva, and then back to London, where he survived, in a vegetative state, until his death.
...
The initial IDF field report, which went to the British Embassy in Tel Aviv and to Tom's family, exonerated the soldier who had killed him. He claimed Tom was in camoflage, and wielding a gun. In the face of a clutch of witness statements, such suggestions were withdrawn. Just before Tom's death, the soldier, a Bedouin Arab of the IDF, was indicted on six charges, of which the most serious was aggravated assault, implying no intention to kill. Since Tom was shot by a rifle with an advanced telescopic lens, his parents are demanding that the charge be murder, but they are also demanding the eradiction of the culture of impunity with which the IDF operates in the occupied territories of Palestine.
According to B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Centre for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, between September 29 2000 and December 18 2003 some 377 Israeli civilians and 80 security forces members were killed in Israel. Some 196 Israeli civilians and 180 IDF members were killed in the occupied territories. In that period, 2289 Palestinians were killed in the occupied territories, with many tens of thousands injured, most of whom have been civilians."


Yes, I know the debate is "getting old", but since the impression many people are giving off here is that they think that the violence is virtually all inflicted on Israelis and that Israel would be well within its rights to essentially flatten Palestine (and again I think the fact that Israel is the one in violation of international law is a point many seem to ignore) I felt that some counter points were needed.

[This message has been edited by CookedHaggis (edited March 25, 2004).]

PAPA WANT!

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Don't be unwise judge me not by my size. You wont believe your eyes watch the xwing rise!

Israel's apologists also ignore the growing refusenik movement which include many high ranking veterans.

Except when she's pointing it at your groin! That scene in "Never Say Never Again" is very disturbing.

Uh, Cooked, how does an overzealous or unprofessional soldier constitute an effort on the part of the IDF to attack civilians?

This really is not an ambiguous request - if Israel is as purely evil and heartless as you people make it out to be, it really should not be so terribly difficult to support your claims.





... wa.. I ..amazing

edit:

This really ****ing blows my mind. Let me break it down -

The Israeli Defense Force is an organization responsible to an elected government and is tasked with defending Israeli interests, with the explicit qualification that civilians are not to be targeted. Civilians are sometimes (often, even) killed as a result of their operations, but never because it is IDF policy to target them. When its soldiers are found to have acted in excess, they are held accountable.

Hamas is an organization responsible to no one but its own leaders and has the stated aim of eliminating the state of Israel. It makes no apologies for seeking out civilians and civilian targets, and certainly does not police those in its ranks who don't act in accordance with Western notions of human rights.

It's not the fact that you criticize the IDF that I don't understand - the IDF does that itself. It's the fact that you moan endlessly about accidental civilian deaths caused by Israel but say nothing about Palestinian suicide bombers, and in fact apologize for them with such remarks as "Those kids are mostly "mules", not suicide bombers. They just use them to get explosives through checkpoints", or simply portray the IDF as being the moral equivalent of Hamas, that confuses and infuriates me.

You are either hopelessly naive or morally bankrupt, and an apologist for cold-blooded murderers.

[This message has been edited by Sine Nomen (edited March 25, 2004).]

Sine, the worrying part is the fact that most world leaders and governments don't see the difference, or actually, don't admit to seeing the difference, because it's far better to be in the Arab world's favor than in Israel's. Hypocrisy is the standard. UN Security Council sessions are often held with the purpose of condemning Israel for some questionable act, but rarely ever mention (let alone condemn) the suicide bombing or other act of terrorism that led to that act. Yes, it's mind-boggling sometimes, and it's very hard to get used to.

As for the refusniks you mention, Ugg, they're not worth mentioning because they're a minute extreme-left minority - I also don't mention radical rightist groups that want all Palestinians transferred overseas and the Dome of the Rock destroyed so that a third Temple can be built. The reason the refusing veterans caused such a commotion is because they used their military positions to make a political statement. If they had acted independantly of the military no one would have said a thing.

And Slug... her unit tag is of the Wingate Combat Fitness Institute, and judging by her weapon she's probably a fitness instructor. I know where to find her, you may be in luck

Oh thank god. I wish for her to make me fit. Sexually. As in, by us having sex. Me and her. Sexual intercourse.

With my penis.


Sexually.

Do I make myself clear?

Sexually.

Read this again please:



Are the IDF equivalent to Hamas? No, not at all; they have a formal structure and levels of accountability, but thousands of deaths aren't all "overzealousness" and "unprofessionalism". Hamas wasn't (isn't) just a suicide bomber club either, it's an active participant in many community projects in Palestine. Also worth mentioning again is that Palestine cannot have a standing armed force with formal sturcture and levels of accountability- Israel won't let them. Painting this in shades of black & white, as you seem to be doing, is both unhelpful and dangerous.
And again, what about the evicted families and bulldozed homes? It's all illegal, it's all done by or with the consent of the Israeli government and it wrecks the lives of thousands.

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it