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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Invasion of Iraq nessecary?
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Invasion of Iraq nessecary?
2004-09-21, 4:53 PM #41
Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn42689
Was it necessary? No. Was it morally right? Probably. Was it well-planned and executed well? No. Are we in deep **** now? Most definitely.

That is all. :p
That about sums up my thoughts :) :D
May the mass times acceleration be with you.
2004-09-21, 5:10 PM #42
Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Kuat
Finity's point was to focus on the positive. Why should we? If we make it seem completely right, then other such wars wouldn't be hampered.

No, I think the negative should be shown as well, there is no need to hide the positive. The positive things happening are just being completely ignored, it is all politics.
2004-09-21, 5:15 PM #43
The question wasn't if we're doing any good over there, it's if it was necissary or not. I believe the homefront was more important than Iraq, or even (to an extent) Afganistan. We have to stay now, because of what we've promised them, and what we're doing. Sure, we're doing good things, but should we be doing great things before we help our own situation?

JediKirby
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2004-09-21, 5:21 PM #44
Do unto others as you would do unto yourself.
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2004-09-21, 6:05 PM #45
Yes. This is why, in a nutshell:

9-11 made it painfully obvious that Arab and Muslim states such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia, neither of which have transparent, mobile economies or open, democratic political systems, are susceptible to radical, violent Islamism because young men and women have nothing to look forward to in life. When young Ahmed is leaning against the wall because he cannot get a job and has no means by which to change his situation, al Qaeda comes along, quotes some violent passages from the Qur'an as well as anti-American and anti-Israeli vitriol.

The trick to defeating terrorism is not, as so many intellectuals (and the Kerry campaign) claim, to make young Ahmed like us or respect us. It's to give him the potential to enjoy the same sort of life you and I do. It's to give him the opportunity to go to school, earn a dignified living, buy a house and raise a family. He may still be angry at the US for this or that, but who cares? He lives a good life, and has a lot to lose, so he just chuckles when he hears that al Qaeda recruiter exhort him to martyr himself in the great Jihad against Jews and Crusaders.

How to do this, you ask? Well, since we don't really have the time to promote gradual reform and progress in the Arab and Muslim worlds (this ain't the Cold War, and there is no deterrent - they're shooting), we have to give the region a little kickstart.

That kickstart is Iraq, and to a lesser degree, Afghanistan. You see, there are already plenty of Arab and Muslim activists who are demanding economic and political reform - in Morocco, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and elsewhere. This is good, and it proves to people with half a brain that democracy is not something the West is trying to impose upon them, but rather something they are willing to risk their lives to demand. But, despite their best efforts, things just aren't moving quickly enough! al Qaeda still finds plenty of recruits to hijack planes and drive car bombs. So, we had to create an example for the entire world, not just the Arabs and Muslims, to show them that Arab culture and Islam are actually compatible with pluralistic, free republics and capitalism.

We can't go after Morocco, Egypt or Saudi Arabia, because they're our allies. We can't very well fight a country we're currently training and arming (it's bad form)! If only there were a hostile, repressive state in the area we could find! Wait, what's this? You say there's a diverse Muslim country of 28 million north of Saudi Arabia ruled by a bloodthirsty tyrant? And he’s hostile to the US? Yeah. Iraq was the logical choice.

So the idea is that in the absence of Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath party apparatus, the Iraqi people will choose to build in its place a free society. One where young guys who would otherwise lean idly against walls or take up arms against America instead go to work and vote. He can hate us all he wants, though I doubt he will, but it won't matter either way. The French, Germans and many others around the world don't like our foreign policy a damn bit, and yet because they both are societies in which people have political and economic opportunity, they are not large recruiting centers for those who wish us ill. A rich, prosperous and politically open Arab world would be no different, despite what people say about its religion and culture. Democracies do not fight one another.

Why? Because 600 years ago, Western Europe was equally mired in fundamentalist religion and poverty. But when people started making money, they found ways to ignore passages in the Bible that condemn making money off loans and other such restrictions. They said to the Church, "look, I have some money and I want to make more. You won't let me, so **** off". And they did. When the same thing happens in the Arab world, people will be inclined to listen less to religious clerics and more to investment bankers.

Those people who say we don't really understand Arab culture are guilty of ignorance themselves. Iraq will work as an example because there is such a thing as Arab identity that goes beyond religion and nationality. It's why Moroccans and Yemenis sympathize with Palestine, and why the Arab migrant workers who came home rich from Saudi Arabia in the 70's and 80's also came home believing in the radical Saudi sect of Islam known as Wahhabism. But this connection works both ways. Arabs will know when they see Iraq functioning like a modern state that they too can enjoy the simple freedoms of earning decent wages and voting for their guy in the election. They will not be told otherwise. That is the answer to terrorism, and why it was necessary to invade Iraq.

Got that?
A desperate disease requires a dangerous remedy.

A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.

art
2004-09-21, 6:11 PM #46
too long, didn't read
2004-09-21, 6:12 PM #47
If you can imitate SA, so can I! Banned!
A desperate disease requires a dangerous remedy.

A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.

art
2004-09-21, 6:13 PM #48
Nothing says 'political reform' like an air-raid!

But really, I can understand and somewhat agree with that sine, I can. But I don't think the order of things was correct, or the prosedures. America and it's current time of need is a bit more importent than making a symbolic gesture to the rest of the world. And if you say that there ISN'T a problem in America, you're foolishly wrong. Take the fact that I can't get the thing that's legally supposed to be mine due to the piss-poor healthcare in america, or the foriegn jobs that are throwing my father out of work right now?

JediKirby
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2004-09-21, 6:16 PM #49
... Had you actually read what I said you'd understand why it was not a "symbolic gesture". It's proof that change is possible and necessary.

Also, all countries, no matter how rich, face problems with unemployment and health care. But, like I said, our society is stable because we have ways of dealing with them. Don't like Bush's stance on trade? Vote for the other guy. Don't like his health care plan? Vote for the other guy. Egyptians and Saudis can't.
A desperate disease requires a dangerous remedy.

A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.

art
2004-09-21, 6:18 PM #50
Now that IS a good point, maybe you've made a switch on my opinion. I'm still not so sure Iraq was the best choice, but that's more from my own, completelly unknowing tactical point of view.

JediKirby
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2004-09-21, 6:20 PM #51
Nice post Sine, I read something like that in "The Prince", which boils down to the fact that if a man has a family and security of his possessions and what not, he won't bother to blow himself up. I don't think you can argue with that logic.

However, whether the forced swich of governments was moral, if it was approached right to achive the said plan, or if the states will improve anyway through this effort is up for time to decide.

It's great to say that we have plan X, but carrying it out is another matter. Aspirations are great and all, but it matters if something is realistic or not. When was the last time a whole region had a plan such as this developed through a foreign power? It seems to be the case the change usually comes from within. And change from a foreign power is never well accepted. Again though, you can't say never to such a thing happening.

I don't know if it is too early to tell, and things are always worse before they get better. But if it's just things getting worse period is also something to be seen. It hasn't even been that long since the taliban fell, but Afganistan isn't doing all that hot either.

I'm against the war because I think the plan is unrealistic. The logic behind it is infallible, but accomplishing it is a whole 'nother game.

Then again, that is if that is actually the reason behind it... haw haw haw.

But I have to say, that is THE most well presented case 'For' that I have read. And it manages to be light on insults as well, what a concept.
2004-09-21, 6:27 PM #52
Sine, as many differences as we've had, and as much as you support Bush while I don't, you, my friend, are a ****ing god.

Kuat--ever hear the phrase "Is the Bush administration just fighting this war for oil? Or does he really have the interests of the Iraqi people at heart? Find out tonight at 10"? I know I have. And while I'm not saying he did or did not have their best interests at heart, at this point I'm not ruling the idea out. You, however, seem to be dead-set that your opinion is law, and that, ironically enough, mine is wrong and you should be lord king of Opinionland, where you can banish any that you don't like.

To quote my physics teacher: Sorry. Things just got a little more complicated.

I don't flame people, per sey, I give them a light tap on the wrists when they prove themselves ignorant, and usually in a quite respectable manner tell them that they were either wrong or misinformed, and then explain why/how. This time I did it a bit more harshly.

Of course Sine comes up behind me and basically elaborates on what I said, Bush MAY or MAY NOT have the Iraqi people's best interests at heart, and you of course agree with him 100%. (I did post my doubts that it was so, but still, I posted the possibility)

*sigh* People.
D E A T H
2004-09-21, 6:37 PM #53
Quote:
Originally posted by Dj Yoshi
stuff


*sigh* Where did I suggest my opinion was LAW. That seems to be more up your alley. You actually described yourself more than anyone else :rolleyes: .

Apart from a ton of stupid quips, you don't really seem to add anything. Infact, you add nothing except insults.

And Sine didn't say the Iraqi's best intrests was in the mind of Bush. The plan in the end is to help us, and keep the Iraqi's just happy enough not to fight.
2004-09-21, 6:42 PM #54
Quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomen
realpolitik realpolitik realpolitik
Wow. Pure evil. Even if I didn't object to the idea of policy wonks and politicians with egos larger than most celestrial bodies implementing their fantasical complex-like-Tom-Clancy wet dreams of influencing the world for good by killing people, I'd be mad as hell that this elitest circlejerk of an administration thought it was perfectly okay to feed the American people bull**** pretenses. If they wanted to go invade because of some bat**** insane neocon policy document, they should have said "hey, America, we're going to invade a country of our choosing because we've gone bat**** insane".

That's what really kills me, Sine. You spout the same crazy neoconservative line that lefty bloggers ascribe to Bush's White House and defend it.
2004-09-21, 6:45 PM #55
Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Kuat:
I'm sorry, but in this case, you're opinion is wrong


That's all I have to say.


Ictus--you could consider me quite modestly left. And I agree with Sine on every count.
D E A T H
2004-09-21, 6:49 PM #56
Quote:
Originally posted by Dj Yoshi
Kuat--your argument made no sense. I understood it, but it was stupid, and baseless,.


You are indeed a hypocrite. That is in a nutshell "your opinion is wrong".

First off, you said my argument was stupid. That was your opinion, and had nothing to do with a real THOUGHT or argument.

Second off... that is your line, remember? I was making a parody of what you are famous for.

Anyway, even though Sine's plan may be kinda sinister in it's own way, if people benefit from it all round, it isn't that bad as the possible alternatives. Just if it will be possible or not.
2004-09-21, 6:54 PM #57
Yes, and a horribly ironic one considering your stand.

I said your argument was idiotic because it was ignorant, and like I said, baseless. The problem with it maybe was not so much the argument itself as it was presentation.
D E A T H
2004-09-21, 7:02 PM #58
This is fun stuff *munches on popcorn*
You...................................
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2004-09-21, 7:04 PM #59
Quote:
Was it necessary? No. Was it morally right? Probably. Was it well-planned and executed well? No. Are we in deep **** now? Most definitely.
I beg to differ. I think the military and combat aspect of the war couldn't have been planned any better to limit casualties, create a deceptive shield which Saddam was fooled by, and end the war as quickly as possible. Now, the planning for the aftermath of the war could have been done better, and I hope that was what you were referring to.

Ictus: You will never be taken seriously until you cut the abrasizness and insulting nature of your opinion. Until then, you will be regarded as nothing more than any other person with too much time to rant, except you use more sentences to say the exact same thing.
Democracy: rule by the stupid
2004-09-21, 7:36 PM #60
Quote:
Originally posted by Dj Yoshi
Ictus--you could consider me quite modestly left. And I agree with Sine on every count.


You agree with anyone who makes a long, thought-out post. If Sine was wrong, you would still agree with him. :rolleyes:
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
-----------------------------@%
2004-09-21, 7:48 PM #61
No, Echoman, READ Sine's post... it makes a lot of sense.
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2004-09-21, 7:56 PM #62
Quote:
Originally posted by Ictus
Wow. Pure evil. Even if I didn't object to the idea of policy wonks and politicians with egos larger than most celestrial bodies implementing their fantasical complex-like-Tom-Clancy wet dreams of influencing the world for good by killing people, I'd be mad as hell that this elitest circlejerk of an administration thought it was perfectly okay to feed the American people bull**** pretenses. If they wanted to go invade because of some bat**** insane neocon policy document, they should have said "hey, America, we're going to invade a country of our choosing because we've gone bat**** insane".

That's what really kills me, Sine. You spout the same crazy neoconservative line that lefty bloggers ascribe to Bush's White House and defend it.


Yes!! You've finally managed to verbalize how I have felt for so long. In one of the rare instances when I disagree with Dj Yoshi, you, Ictus, are god.

Ictus + 1
Sine - 1000
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2004-09-21, 8:00 PM #63
Quote:
Originally posted by Dj Yoshi
I said your argument was idiotic because it was ignorant, and like I said, baseless. The problem with it maybe was not so much the argument itself as it was presentation.


I say the cheese is yellow because it is yellow. Nice circular argument man. I say this flamewar we are having is stupid because it is stupid. No one has jumped to either of our sides, so I can pretty much say no one gives a rat *** what your opinion or mine were on eachother.

I would ask what exactly was ignorant about it, maybe ask you to substantiate your claims, but that would be too hard for you.
2004-09-21, 8:02 PM #64
Why is it that all the people who answered 'No' seem to be posting and such..all the people that said 'Yes' are posting "Lets leave it at that..I said Yes...and uhh yeah that's all"?
Think while it's still legal.
2004-09-21, 8:02 PM #65
Awesome, Freelancer. My ego is ballooning to dangerous proportions.

Dj Yoshi: Neoconservativism is sometimes referred to as neoliberalism. It's not really a question of right and left, but right and wrong.

Kieran: If I'm insulting, it's only by accident.

And I spend very little time on my rants. I was sure it showed.
2004-09-21, 8:11 PM #66
Somehow I was expecting more than "you're eeeeeeeeeeeevil maaaaaaaaaaaaan". I guess I was expecting too much.
A desperate disease requires a dangerous remedy.

A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.

art
2004-09-21, 8:14 PM #67
Quote:
Originally posted by Ictus
Wow. Pure evil.


No, YOU'RE evil!!
2004-09-21, 8:18 PM #68
Quote:
Originally posted by SAJN_Master
Why is it that all the people who answered 'No' seem to be posting and such..all the people that said 'Yes' are posting "Lets leave it at that..I said Yes...and uhh yeah that's all"?


Because the people who support Kerry are edgy, vocal, mentally over the hill, and the people who support Bush are sick of Democrats whining and moaning like the 6 year old kid you saw begging for ice cream from his mom the day before.
You...................................
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2004-09-21, 8:24 PM #69
Quote:
Originally posted by LonelyDagger
Because the people who support Kerry are edgy, vocal, mentally over the hill, and the people who support Bush are sick of Democrats whining and moaning like the 6 year old kid you saw begging for ice cream from his mom the day before.


Heh, I'm voting for Bush even though I'm against the war. If there is anything about Bush, we will be safer under him than Kerry. That and Kerry has one agenda: Kerry for President. We haven't really heard any plan that he has other than "I wanna be president".

This isn't purely Democrat versus Republican thing, this is a debate on whether the war was right or not. Congress and Senate had a hand in this as well, and they have democrats. Plus Kerry himself voted for it.

Don't dismiss people like that. It's rude and stupid.
2004-09-21, 8:25 PM #70
I agree. Stop whining! What has whining ever gotten anyone? Nothing, ever, so if you have opinions, please keep them in their right and proper barbed-wire-fenced zones.
Warhead[97]
2004-09-21, 8:28 PM #71
Quote:
That and Kerry has one agenda: Kerry for President. We haven't really heard any plan that he has other than "I wanna be president".


Sweet Jesus man, have you watched a single debate?! Or even actually LISTENED to everything Kerry has said. Try that instead of going with the bandwagon flow of "OMG BUSH IS DUMB AND KERRY ONLY SAYZ I HATE BUSH AND THATS IT LOLZ!"
Think while it's still legal.
2004-09-21, 8:31 PM #72
Actually SAJN, Kuat is right on that.
2004-09-21, 8:35 PM #73
I'd like to step in to referee.

How about provide some evidence besides:
A. I'm right
B. You're wrong
C. If you're not wrong, at least SAJN is wrong.

SOURCES.
2004-09-21, 8:39 PM #74
Good lord, either I'm a sycophant of Kerry or a dog of Bush. Damn it, Kerry prattles on about irrelevant crap 99% of the time, and that is my impression of him. He seems to think the vietnam war is a current issue. Because that is what I see. If the man doesn't make enough effort to make the liberal media make him seem glorious, he is a loser.

Oh crap, according to Yoshi, I only listen to the liberal media, so I should be voting for Kerry. But according to SAJN I listen to Fox and am on the Bush band wagon. CRAP, WHO AM I!!!!!

I am the quick for you! Because I have thoughts of my own and don't stick soley to one side or another. What a concept!
2004-09-21, 8:40 PM #75
Quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomen
Somehow I was expecting more than "you're eeeeeeeeeeeevil maaaaaaaaaaaaan". I guess I was expecting too much.


Yeah. That was the funny part. You missed the part where he debased your entire argument.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2004-09-21, 8:53 PM #76
So many thoughts, so many flames, so pointless.
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2004-09-21, 8:54 PM #77
So many people like YOU who contribute nothing to the thread but drivel like that ^^^ If you aren't going to partipate, don't post! Especially if it's annoying crap like that.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2004-09-21, 8:55 PM #78
Dear Sine,
You're slipping, sir. I expected funny, but would have accepted anything but mediocre misinterpretation. Please rectify.
2004-09-21, 9:01 PM #79
Quote:
Originally posted by Freelancer
So many people like YOU who contribute nothing to the thread but drivel like that ^^^ If you aren't going to partipate, don't post! Especially if it's annoying crap like that.


I'm sorry, that's the best way I could express my emotions at reading yet another Massassi Temple Political debate. It beats me coming out and saying I think most of you are wrong, and misguided. So to add something to the deabte, let me see. It would take the U.S 55 years in Iraq(at this rate)to equal the casulaties of the Vietnam War. Those who claim the war is a disaster? No, no it's not. Add up all the Iraqis? No, still not a disaster. Secondly, at the end of the day, if Iraq becomes a democracy, a beacon of the light in the Middle East, would it be worth removing Saddam, even though he had weapons of Mass Destruction? Yes, and I don't see how you could think otherwise. Right now, we have to stay in Iraq. It's our "mess" as many would have it, and we have to "clean it up"
www.dailyvault.com. - As Featured in Guitar Hero II!
2004-09-21, 9:07 PM #80
Odd, Nubs. "Spreading democracy" was hardly the pretext for the war. Sure we hear about it NOW, but that's only because it's a biproduct of going to war. I guess this goes for Sine too.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
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