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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Now THIS people, is how AI should be done...
Now THIS people, is how AI should be done...
2004-12-27, 3:11 PM #1
http://stalker.myexp.de/en/index.php?site=lss.php


Quote:
As we mentioned earlier, The Zone is a single large area, and movement within is not limited in any way other than by environmental conditions (i.e. level of radiation the player can currently withstand etc). This "open world" concept is certainly not new, but the game world always "came to life" only when the player was in the immediate vicinity. The critical difference with STALKER is that life within The Zone never stops or slows down, even if the player is in an area many kilometres away.Graphically, The Zone and everything in it is only drawn in the area around the player, i.e. within a certain radius of the player's position. BUT, once outside this radius, an NPC or monster does not just magically disappear into thin air, but rather continue to live and act just as before, although now in a somewhat simplified, purely mathematical world. Here, events happen just as they do around the player: stalkers meet, trade, battle and go on quests, monsters migrate in search of food, sleep, and fight. Any and all events leave their mark on the world. It is perfectly possible to come upon the body of a stalker killed by a rival group, or see the aftermath of a battle between a stalker party and a monster horde. You could find the weapon and equipment dropped by a stalker killed and eaten by a pack of blind dogs.


Quote:
Of course, given the complexity of such AI, we had our share of problems and general weirdness. During early development and testing of combat intelligence, one stalker went mad and began to consider himself as an enemy, trying to dispose of this "enemy" as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, our good-for-nothing animators did not plan for the possibility of putting your own gun to your temple, so the poor stalker had to instead shoot the only part of the "enemy" body he could reach - his own feet. For a good 10 minutes the entire design team, while rolling around on the floor from laughter, watched as the stalker-wannabie desparately battled with his own limbs. In the end, having used up two full magazines, the NPC died, submitting the diagnostic "Enemy successfully terminated" before terminating.


The AI in this game is pretty much why I want to play this game, truely remarkable.
Got a permanent feather in my cap;
Got a stretch to my stride;
a stroll to my step;
2004-12-27, 3:17 PM #2
Heheheh, thats funny.
[01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.
2004-12-27, 3:21 PM #3
Quote:
In order to test some of the simulation system elements we built a special level, which was just a huge field covering several kilometers square. The testing basically consisted of dumping a whole zoo of monsters and stalkers onto this field, and the entire development team sitting by the screen and watching what will happen. In order to give the whole thing at least the illusion of a proper test, the game output gameplay statistics onto a second screen at the same time, which mainly looked something like this:

Evnt119: Stalker 'Gosha' #84 was bitten to death by pigs
Evnt120: Stalker 'Gosha' #132 shot and killed a dog (I don't think Greepeace would've liked our testing sessions)
Evnt121: Stalker 'Gosha' #43 picked up the assault rifle belonging to 'Gosha' #84, and is now standing around with two assault rifles like a god damn fool
Evnt122: Stalker 'Gosha' #7 stomped on several rats
Evnt123: The dead rats' mates celebrated by feasting on a dead pig
Evnt124: The pigs didn't like that and wasted 'Gosha' #43
Evnt125: Stalker 'Gosha' #61 is standing over 2 assault rifles scratching his head, because he doesn't know which is better, and cannot use both like 'Gosha' #43 for religious reasons
Evnt126: Stalker 'Gosha' #17, however, is not a religious man
Evnt127: Stalker 'Gosha' #17 killed 'Gosha' #61
Evnt128: Stalker 'Gosha' #17 picked up everything on the ground, including a grenade dropped by 'Gosha' #94, killed earlier by 'Gosha' #84
...

The level was restarted many times, which allowed us to figure out that similar "mad" situations ensued roughly 10-15 times out of every 100. We had instances when a single assault rifle changed hands over 20 times during one round. The Life Simulation System worked, thank God, and we all celebrated our good luck.


I really want to play this game NOW.
Marsz, marsz, Dąbrowski,
Z ziemi włoskiej do Polski,
Za twoim przewodem
Złączym się z narodem.
2004-12-27, 3:22 PM #4
Yes, I'm very excited about STALKER. The AI sounds superb, and the graphics look just as awesome.
2004-12-27, 3:26 PM #5
Quote:
Originally posted by Ric_Olie
I really want to play this game NOW.


Your telling me! This game puts HL2's AI literally 20 years behind, heck even Far Cry's AI has NOT. ONE. THING. On STALKERS.
Got a permanent feather in my cap;
Got a stretch to my stride;
a stroll to my step;
2004-12-27, 3:31 PM #6
It looks better, too.
2004-12-27, 3:33 PM #7
I guess it's because they tried to make the AI as independent and variable as possible instead of just making the AI do cool things to the player. :)
2004-12-27, 4:52 PM #8
Trust me, this game is amazingly fun to play. The graphical warps surrounding the anomalies are great, and their effects are excellent. The AI is actually intelligent.

Its going to be better than HL2 by a long margin.
"Whats that for?" "Thats the machine that goes 'ping'" PING!
Q. How many testers does it take to change a light bulb?
A. We just noticed the room was dark; we don't actually fix the problems.
MCMF forever.
2004-12-27, 4:58 PM #9
The game definately seems to have potential. Alot of it, actually.
The answer is maybe.
2004-12-27, 5:07 PM #10
First time I ever heard of this game, then again I don't follow PC gaming much.
2004-12-27, 5:10 PM #11
Agreed, as I commented before to friends its going to kill HL2 singleplayer. Now I've actually played through HL2, I realise it wouldnt be that hard to do so.

Imagine Fallout, in 3d, crossed with the best of HL2. Throw in some zombies, some excellent weaponry, and a playable area thats mega-fricken huge.

Its really freaky, I was thinking about checking up on how Stalker was progressing earlier today :)
"Whats that for?" "Thats the machine that goes 'ping'" PING!
Q. How many testers does it take to change a light bulb?
A. We just noticed the room was dark; we don't actually fix the problems.
MCMF forever.
2004-12-27, 5:13 PM #12
Stalker looks like it's going to kick everyone's ***. Here's hoping they include Co-op. (Supposedly they were going to, but I heard a rumor that they were having problems with it, so I'm not sure if they canned it or what)
Moo.
2004-12-27, 5:32 PM #13
GTA 2 was like this, and it was excellent.
This is how GTA 3 and Vice City should have been. I totally hated how this huge massive city only actually existed as a little bubble around you. But games like Half-Life 2 wouldn't really benefit from anything like this, as HL2 is more linear and storyline-driven.
Only a freeform FPS like the GTA games, or an RPG like Morrowind, would need an AI system like this.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-12-27, 6:25 PM #14
Can't praise the AI until i see it in action. Alot of games in the past made these types of promises and didn't deliver so I'll just play the skeptic in case it doesn't live up to expectations.
Time is but a window
Death is but a doorway
He'll be back
2004-12-27, 6:48 PM #15
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Big_Fat_CoW
Stalker looks like it's going to kick everyone's ***. Here's hoping they include Co-op. (Supposedly they were going to, but I heard a rumor that they were having problems with it, so I'm not sure if they canned it or what)


Agreed.
D E A T H
2004-12-27, 6:59 PM #16
Quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Can't praise the AI until i see it in action. Alot of games in the past made these types of promises and didn't deliver so I'll just play the skeptic in case it doesn't live up to expectations.


Exactly.

And this doesn't say anything against Farcry's AI. Seriously, they're saying the AI acts when the player isn't around: Big deal. Do they flank the player? Set up traps? Move in file and duck down behind objects when they know they're beat? No. It said nothing of this sort. It only said that they added some cute variables to the AI that make the world feel a bit more realistic. Only icing, if they don't get the *actual* AI right.

JediKirby
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
ᴸᶥᵛᵉ ᴼᵑ ᴬᵈᵃᵐ
2004-12-27, 7:10 PM #17
Far Cry's AI was pretty leet, until they were liek "yah lets put monkey-zombies and cyborg ninja samurai m4a1 wielding gymnast zombies in"

those *****es :(. I coulda just fought merc after merc after merc in all those levels. The stupid mutants ruined it....... (sort of). I say sort of because they didn't really make Far Cry a less excellent game.
2004-12-27, 7:18 PM #18
Like I've said before: The first 3 levels sold me. They're worth 50 dollars alone.

JediKirby
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
ᴸᶥᵛᵉ ᴼᵑ ᴬᵈᵃᵐ
2004-12-27, 9:41 PM #19
Far Cry's AI can be amazingly smart and amazingly stupid, and too smart. They shoot at rocks that you throw out of hidden areas, and suddenly know where you are...

Also yes, STALKER's videos show excellent combat AI.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2004-12-27, 10:38 PM #20
Personally I couldn't care less what they do when I'm not around.
Still sounds very cool though.
You can't judge a book by it's file size
2004-12-28, 3:32 AM #21
That looks incredibly impressive, I'm glad to see attempts made at AI that allow for virtual actors to think as players. I just shudder to think if they get combined with speech like from Anarchy Online's "Leets."

Quote:
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
...Only a freeform FPS like the GTA games, or an RPG like Morrowind, would need an AI system like this.

Taking a look at those tales, I am reminded of the Radiant AI engine that is being developed for use in The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. An interesting tale given out during an interview with FileFront:
Quote:
Q: Was there anything difficult in trying to design the new characteristics?

A: Developing on the bleeding edge of technology is never easy, and we’ve certainly had our share of difficulties wrestling with our new ideas. The AI system has been a particular challenge, and we’re constantly finding and closing the holes in the system. We’ve had guys going through towns slaughtering everyone. We’ve had guards getting into giant street battles because one of them got hungry and ran off to poach some deer. We’ve had people wander off to try and start conversations with sheep. I once had an entire town show up in the same lower-class two-room tavern for lunch one day, all at the same time. And one of the guys was going around pickpocketing the food off everyone before they could eat.

So the entire thing has presented quite a few interesting design challenges, particularly with us being one of the only games that allow you to attack anyone and everyone you possibly come across. At the end of the day, no matter how deep the AI is, it’s still got to cater to the player. You can’t have an important quest NPC get killed off-screen because some bully in town wanted her bread. So we’re constantly banging on it, working out the kinks, and thinking up new and better way to exploit all the possibilities the system offers us.

Additionally, it's mentioned at Bethesda's website, along with some of the more interesting elements that will be in the game:
Quote:
...Full facial animations and lip-synching, combined with full speech for all dialog, allows NPCs to come to life like never before.

Additionally, I'm still wowed by the screenshots for the game, which still put to shame everything I've seen to date, up to and including both Half-Life2 and Doom3. (both before and after I tried the demos for those two) Just keep in mind that the four most impressive screenshots are the ones they aren't showing, but they're availible on PC-Action... (sorry, it's in German)

Of course, the current most educated guesses at the release date for the game give Stalker a good solid year before Oblivion. :rolleyes: (don't confuse educated guesses with so-called "official" statements from sites like Gamespot, who happen to have pulled the December 2005 date out of their ***)
Wake up, George Lucas... The Matrix has you...
2004-12-28, 3:49 AM #22
Three words.

Wow.

Just... wow.
Hey, Blue? I'm loving the things you do. From the very first time, the fight you fight for will always be mine.
2004-12-28, 4:09 AM #23
Official site says the game was delayed until May only two months ago, so I'd say that's the best date to follow for now. It'll probably be delayed more, but it sounds like it's worth the wait
Moo.
2004-12-28, 4:23 AM #24
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Big_Fat_CoW
Official site says the game was delayed until May only two months ago, so I'd say that's the best date to follow for now. It'll probably be delayed more, but it sounds like it's worth the wait

The silly fools for deciding a release date in the first place. They should've done like Doom3, and surprised everbody with a release date not too long beforehand, that'll be next to impossible to set back. Valve tried a similar thing with Half-Life2, but then there were those problems with Vivendi...
Wake up, George Lucas... The Matrix has you...
2004-12-28, 4:27 AM #25
Well, there's no way of knowing how close they are to finishing it without actually being on the development team ourselves (and even then, it's not garunteed to be certain)

For all we know the game could be completed and waiting to be shipped at this very moment. Unlikely, but you never know
Moo.
2004-12-28, 7:07 AM #26
Quote:
...Full facial animations and lip-synching, combined with full speech for all dialog, allows NPCs to come to life like never before.


I don't know why, but lip-synching never impresses me.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-12-28, 7:18 AM #27
Whatever they say, hopefully it's good. Editingwise too.
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2004-12-28, 8:25 AM #28
Quote:
Originally posted by Emon
Far Cry's AI can be amazingly smart and amazingly stupid, and too smart. They shoot at rocks that you throw out of hidden areas, and suddenly know where you are...


That's because the AI was based on actual lines of sight within certain distances. If an AI saw movement, odds are he'd go and set of the alarm or panic and shoot wildly.

How many times have you seen a rock thrown that you couldn't calculate where it came from? If someone threw a rock from a corner and I saw it land, I think I'd know where they were. ;)
Sneaky sneaks. I'm actually a werewolf. Woof.
2004-12-28, 8:50 AM #29
Quote:
Originally posted by jEDIkIRBY
Exactly.

And this doesn't say anything against Farcry's AI. Seriously, they're saying the AI acts when the player isn't around: Big deal. Do they flank the player? Set up traps? Move in file and duck down behind objects when they know they're beat? No.




Yes.
There is a whole line of S.T.A.L.K.E.R videos that says, and shows they do all this.

S.T.A.L.K.E.R Looks awesome, I just hope I can upgrade my machine by then.
The tired anthem of a loser and a hypocrite.
2004-12-28, 9:12 AM #30
Quote:
Originally posted by jEDIkIRBY
Exactly.

And this doesn't say anything against Farcry's AI. Seriously, they're saying the AI acts when the player isn't around: Big deal. Do they flank the player? Set up traps? Move in file and duck down behind objects when they know they're beat? No. It said nothing of this sort. It only said that they added some cute variables to the AI that make the world feel a bit more realistic. Only icing, if they don't get the *actual* AI right.

JediKirby


Here, here:

Quote:
When it becomes necessary to reload, NPCs retreat behind cover before changing out, returning only once they're ready to fight again. NPCs backpedal, use corners for cover, enter buildings to attain a better firing position, as well as many other fascinating things.

We have worked out all the possible actions of the player and prepared natural reactions by characters towards them. A character reacts in the game as he would do so in real life. If the player, for example, attacks and kills one of the guards, the rest will first seek a hiding place, radio the headquarters to order backup, and not stand still, or what's worse, run out towards the player
Got a permanent feather in my cap;
Got a stretch to my stride;
a stroll to my step;
2004-12-28, 10:05 AM #31
woah.... thats amazing. Thats the kind of thing we need in games these days.

Oh and on another note....... Everyone go buy Lacuna Coil: Comalies
Flipsides crackers are the best crackers to have ever existed
2004-12-28, 4:05 PM #32
wHOoooOoooOoOooooooooooo first PC game that I'm now actually planning ahead of time to buy in a loooong time
一个大西瓜
2004-12-28, 5:09 PM #33
Well, I'm not sure if I will be abl to handle both this and Oblivion at once. Let's hope there are no further setbacks for STALKER that would push it back to make it so.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
I don't know why, but lip-synching never impresses me.

You expect a 3D model to actually speak with its own vocal chords? :p
Wake up, George Lucas... The Matrix has you...
2004-12-28, 6:41 PM #34
The stalker videos do look cool but how do we know none of it is scripted or staged?

I only say this cause of the growing trend of video game developers to show off really cool scenes of their game (that are technically possible but quite misleading). I can name 2 examples of this right now

1: The Half-life2 E3 videos that showed how AI can understand that the player stuck a barraced and then push the door open.

Fact. That was all scripted, it was to show off what they might add to the game.


2: The Battle For Middle Earth movies (specifically the making of the game). Show these sweeping camera angles and huge battles, then explain about unit AI that react to their enviroment. Heck we even see towns with AI peasants that run away from danger and when their isn't any they go back to their business.

Fact. Yes all this was in the game but the Unit AI got dumbed down. The peasants were scraped and only used in cutscenes. THe camera isn't unlocked and you only see the cool big time battles and the sky in cutscenes.
Time is but a window
Death is but a doorway
He'll be back
2004-12-29, 3:44 AM #35
Quote:
Originally posted by nottheking
You expect a 3D model to actually speak with its own vocal chords? :p

It's better than the "Time Crisis" method of doing things. It's bloody amusing to see some guy shout "WHAT!?" with his mouth not moving. They must be all ventriloquists, which gives an extra reason to shoot them.
Hey, Blue? I'm loving the things you do. From the very first time, the fight you fight for will always be mine.

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