Alright, I'm removing myself from this stupid conversation if this is what it comes down to. Call me up if you're willing to.. not do this.

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

I'm not going to put up with unsubstantiated, poorly thought out arguments. I'm sorry, but "open your mind! private industry doesn't work" just doesn't cut it as a viable argument in my book. That was my only point. Sorry if you were offended.

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Ω of 14

Soviets rock!







...err. >.>


<.<

in australia, government controled organizations work fine. mabye it has somthing to do with the fact that %57 of australians think it is the governments job to take care of the poor while only %22 of americans believe that.

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your curiosity will get the better of YOU one day.
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

what is wrong with being open to other opinnions. everyone is entitled to their own opinion and sometimes it is good to listen to them to see if your own oppinions are worth keeping.

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your curiosity will get the better of YOU one day.
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

Thanks, alpha, but unfortunately everyone stopped sharing their ideas quite a few posts back, in favor of getting off-topic and back-biting everyone else with a different idea.

Anyway, I may not have the solution, but I can tell you the porblem, and that would be that almost a fourth of Americans can't afford health insurance/care. Now it would be my hope that everyone could share their solutions to this problem, instead of maliciously debating back and forth as we've (myself included) been doing.

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

I'm still waiting on my request from a few posts back for a viable solution for universal health care that doesn't include the government.

I don't know if that stat is correct but I'm guessing it close. I find it strange that Americans care so little about each other that they don't want any kind of social programs to take care of those who can't. :/

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.
HTP
babble, babble, b!tch, b!tch, rebel, rebel, party, party.

Well, I agree that something needs to be done about the current situation, but I don't necessarily agree that it has to be universal health care or a government program. Private insurance and government health care both have their benefits and drawbacks. If I knew what is driving the price of insurance up so much, I might have more of an opinion on the issue.

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

Wrong. The 16th Amendment does. Explicitly.

Pagewizard: It's not your money, just like it isn't your property. Everything belongs to the federal government which graciously allows you to use its money and its property according to the laws voted on by your representatives. Just as a deed is a contract with the government that allows you certain privileges on a piece of land in exchange for property and various other taxes, a dollar bill is legal tender minted and owned by the government and leased to you, for lack of a better word. You aren't owed anything: if you live in the US on our land using our money, you owe us whatever the government says you do. If you don't like it you can petition your representatives, exercise your various Constitutional rights or move out of the country.

Wrong. The first income tax was levied in 1862 by Congress. It was progressive, oddly enough. (1)

Your new credibility is:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0


Let me see I can sum up your argument:
Despite the fact that I leech off the government for my education and roads and police and fire protection and electricity, among countless other things, I will whine endlessly about ill poor people recovering using any of my money, to which I am fully entitled despite the innumerable services provided to me for minimal cost.

[This message has been edited by Ictus (edited April 19, 2004).]

Baaaaaahahahaahahahahaaaaaa! That's funny.... But yeah, seriously, we probably do have a better situation than those Americans over there

Evad; There is no viable solution to health care for the masses that does not involve public funds. Due to high levels of specialisation, a demand higher than the supply of doctors and nurses, and the very high costs of technology involved in medical diagnosis and treatment, heath care is expensive to provide.

That's why the Australian and Canadian models of bulk-billing are the only really viable long-term models.

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The Massassi-Map
There is no spoon.

I like Australia's health system. It's not perfect (the state-federal infights are a big reason why) but the fact I was able to get treatment for my blown disc recently without breaking the bank reminded me how valuable it is.

I'd be more of an advocate of the private health insurance industry if it was even remotely fair. Over here it's a bit of a joke because premiums are going through the roof with medical insurance (and indeed for basically EVERYTHING). So *shrug* whilst that remains the case I'll be content with my tax dollars going towards the public system.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Nice try, but those taxes were hardly permanent or long term, and did not stick around. They were part of the civil war, were gone in 10 years, and brought in at max a paltry 61 million, which pales in comparison to the cost of the war and reconstruction. At their height, they reached 10%, with 4 brackets, 3%, %5, 7.5%, and 10%, although they started out much lower. When they tried to bring them back later in the century, the supreme court ruled them unconstitutional. Not to mention the fact that most people didn't even pay their taxes, which almost completely undermines your assertion.

Although they did exist, they weren't effective, they didn't for long, certainly not long enough to contribute to the government beyond the civil war, and the funds certainly weren't used for the social programs that we're talking about here.

Sorry.

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Ω of 14

[This message has been edited by oSiRiS (edited April 19, 2004).]

I find it thoroughly amusing when people whinge about the cost of health care and how the government isn't doing anything to fix it. Health care doesn't suck because the government is inept, it sucks because people are morons.

The vast, vast majority of health care resources is spent on treating preventable diseases and their complications like obesity, type 2 diabetes and heart disease. This is why health care sucks. Because all the funds and resources are being poured into things that could be fixed if people got off their arses and did some exercise instead of driving to McDonalds to inhale a big mac or three. In 2002, the US spent 132 billion dollars treating diabetes, ~90% of which was plonked down on Type 2 diabetes, a preventable disease. Its no bloody wonder US health care is dodgy.

Then of course there's the cost of treating the idiots who overdose on drugs, drink too much, don't wear safety belts etc.

Government in general would work substantially better if everyone stopped trying to screw it over or expecting a flaming hand out, so that money could be spent on fixing what doesn't work, instead of trying to stop the people rorting the system.

oS: Um, you claimed that "America didn't even have income tax before the 1900's". You were wrong. The first step to regaining some level of credibility is to admit you were wrong. Trying to disprove claims I didn't make is transparent and pathetic.

When you make obviously false or deceptive statements it becomes increasingly more difficult to believe even your occasionally rational claims.


Anyway, since the 16th Amendment and the vast majority of voting Americans have given the government the right to a federal income tax, your offended sense of entitlement is basically moot. Unless you'd like to provide an argument for its abolishment more complex than the one you borrowed from a kindergartener who has trouble sharing the preschool's toys, of course.

[This message has been edited by Ictus (edited April 19, 2004).]

I think this is starting to get slightly off-topic(but that's just me).

It is true that health insurance is going up, but do you also realize that malpractice insurance is also going up. That is why are medical bills are ridiculosly high and health insurance is on the rise.

My dad is an optometrist, and I know for fact that as he learns new things in his contiuning education, his malpractice insurance goes up. Just by learning about LASIK, his insurance went up about $100!

Just thought I'd mention this...

[This message has been edited by HCF_Duke (edited April 20, 2004).]

This thread had 54 replies before this one.

CTRL-V TIME:

http://forums.massassi.net/html/Forum1/HTML/034500.html

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<landfish> FastGamerr > Satan

Heh this thread is amusing to me watching everyone argue.

I have a final next week on my Socail Justice class, and one of the things we talked about for a while was health care.

Someone said find a solution that does not involve the government. One of the issues we discussed was the Principle of Subsidarity. That is that all issues should be dealth with at the most local level possible, with as little government interference as possible.

So, unless the majority of Americans stop being the way they are, this totally local level is not possible. That would mean if someone in your community gets injured as has to pay for a bill, everyone in the community would get together and help out that person.

This is a solution, and unfortuantly, the people don't allow it.

I'm really glad I saved this page:

Clickity.

In addition, the U.S. is not a completely cold, self-centered nation. Take a look here for just...a few things the U.S. does.

In the end, the only way the U.S. could afford health care for 293,064,386 (according to the U.S. Census) people, as opposed to the approximate 30,000,000 people of Canada, would be to lessen or cut funding for several foreign aid programs, unless, of course, people who can't afford taxes wouldn't mind hiking the taxes to some twenty or thirty percent.

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Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent.

-R.D. Laing

[This message has been edited by Wolfy (edited April 20, 2004).]

Since you apparently missed the explanation that I quite clearly typed out: those income taxes in the 1800's have no relevance to the discussion at hand because they did little more than attempt to pay for war costs and/or reconstruction. What we are talking about here is whether such taxes are necessary to facilitate all of the government-run social programs. In this context, my statement is true. Perhaps I should have stated that in my original post better, as this was the intended meaning:

"Are you aware that the government had no income tax [to rely on for social programs and improvements, which is what we're talking about and therefore need not be stated] before the 1900's?"

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Ω of 14

We have the world's highest taxes over here.
And the taxes pay for like... EVERYTHING. You want to go to a private school here? Sure, but remember that the private schools here are primarily government funded.
You want to got to a private doctor here? Sure, but he's partially government funded.

By my tax money.

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"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
-Robert Jastrow

I didn't read this whole thread, but I wanted to make sure everyone knows this: If you can't pay, they will still fix you. Repeat after me: If you can't pay, they will still fix you.

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EvilMagic.net: Brian's Web Log

oS: Whatever.

Do you have any problems with a national health system that aren't outgrowths of your overdeveloped sense of entitlement? I mean, you object to social services generally, but you're also a miniscule minority. Can you think of any reason the compassionate majority shouldn't decide to move to a single-payer healthcare system? Something like "it doesn't work, and here's the proof". That would be different.

Brian: Only if it's an emergency. If you're dying slowly you're out of luck.

I don't find anything frustrating about paying more taxes to fund the health care system here in Québec and all of Canada, because I know that whatever may happen to me, something as small as needing stitches or something as major as a heart attack, I can go to the hospital and not worry about the bill after. I can also rest assured that any of my loved ones, no matter how poor they may be, will get the exact same treatment.

Here the government regulates a lot of things for us: electricity is about 0.07$/kwh. I'll be pwned if anyone in the states can tell me the same.

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When guitars are outlawed, only outlaws will have guitars.

Yeah, but then won't you be paying medical bills for like...the rest of your life?

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Flibbledy-dibbledy! Nyaaaaaaaahhh!

-The Last True Evil

Ictus: ok, then read this article. It was published in USA today (a fairly credible source) and I've found it for your reading pleasure.

http://www.halexandria.org/dward293.htm

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Old aunts used to come up to me at weddings, poking me in the ribs and cackling, telling me, "You're next." They stopped after I started doing the same thing to them at funerals.

[This message has been edited by Pagewizard_YKS (edited April 20, 2004).]

Only if they can identify you...

I'm rather fond of a mixed system. Take a small amount of money from taxes (*gasp* which might just increase the taxes a small amount...) to pay for public health clinics. These clinics would have doctors relatively fresh from med school, and they would obtain experience at these public health centers. Then they move on to the private clinics, where they can make the vast amounts of cash, and the people willing to pay for their services are getting experienced doctors without "having to wait in line"...

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Roach - Caught in the war of hemispheres.
0 of 14.

Yup, my uncle is a doctor with his own practice and right now he is making MUCH less money than he did over 10 years ago. The cost of malpractice insurance got to the point where he considered giving up his practice last year to become a locum as it gotten to the point he could barely meet his mortgage payments. That's nuts.


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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Pagewizard, it's a full page ad. It's not credible. At all.

The IRS has a page devoted to the subject here. Pay particular attention to the articles addressing "frivolous tax arguments" and the like.