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☖ Forums → Discussion Forum → Lojban
Lojban
2005-01-11, 5:07 PM #1
I have recently stumbled across a very interesting thing called Lojban. It is a constructed language. It sounds like a pretty cool idea, and only a few hundred people speak it so far. The dictionary should be coming out this year, and it would be cool to be one of the first thousand to speak it.

As far as the design is concerned, it coudn't seem any better. If you would like to read about it, I suggest this page. There is also a wikipedia article on it, and the homepage is http://www.lojban.org

Anyone actually interesting in learning it can look here.

The wikipedia article can be found here. I also suggest reading about Loglan and the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis!

And don't forget to take a look at the wiki!
2005-01-11, 5:09 PM #2
Woot conlangs
2005-01-11, 5:22 PM #3
I think everyone should speak in math, or maybe C++.
Stuff
2005-01-11, 5:32 PM #4
Lojban is the Logical Language.
2005-01-11, 5:39 PM #5
And I haven't even learned esperanto yet.:(
"Flowers and a landscape were the only attractions here. And so, as there was no good reason for coming, nobody came."
2005-01-11, 5:40 PM #6
Don't learn esperanto. Lojban is the reason not to learn esperanto.

Oh great, I can see it now. Pretty soon my title will be changed from "GNU / Linux Zealot" to "Lojban Zealot" :p
2005-01-11, 5:41 PM #7
Reminds me of Esperanto...
MithShrike: First Mateneer
Pimpin' Yerba Mate Drinker
2005-01-11, 5:42 PM #8
Well, esperanto is not culturally neurtal. Lojban is. Esperanto is geared too heavily toward Europeans. And, Lojban is based on First Order Logic
2005-01-11, 5:47 PM #9
yes, but creative minded people don't like to be stuck with something that they use every day that is based on logic.

we are not vulcans.

:p
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)------@%
2005-01-11, 5:49 PM #10
I'm so glad you said that!

Taken from the first link in my first post:

Quote:
4. Lojban is not Vulcan
As I've said, Lojban means "logical language". Unfortunately, in many cultures we have the idea that being logical means having no emotions, rather like Mr. Spock in Star Trek. In fact "logical" is not the opposite of "emotional", but of "illogical" - in other words, saying things that don't make sense.

In Lojban you can of course use "emotional" words like prami ("love/adore") but there is also a special class of words set aside for expressing feelings. Some examples are:

* .a'o - hope (pronounced "aho")
* .ui - happiness ("wheee!")
* .oi - complaint (like "Oy vey!")
* .u'u - regret (and the normal Lojban way to say, "I'm sorry")


Each of these has a negative - .uinai means "unhappy" - and degrees of feeling - .uicai means "extremely happy" or "delighted". You can also combine the words in any way you like, which means you can invent words for emotions that don't have a word in your native language. For example, to express the feeling in a lot of Turkish pop songs (arabesk), I invented the word .iucai.uinaicai (pronounced "you-shy-we-nigh-shy") meaning something like "I am deeply in love and deeply unhappy."

It doesn't stop there, though. .iu means "love", but "love" can mean a lot of things. If we need to, we can modify these basic emotions. .iuro'i is emotional love, what we most commonly understand by the word. .iuro'a is social love - what you might feel for a good friend. .iuro'u, however, is definitely sexual, while .iure'e is spiritual love, the kind of thing mystics feel, maybe. You can even have .iuro'e - mental or intellectual love - if, for example, you had a passion for physics.

Lojban also has a lot of words for handling the general business of conversation. Some examples are:

* coi - hello
* co'o - goodbye
* mi'e - this is (+ your name)
* pe'u - please
* ta'o - by the way
* mu'a - for example
* zo'o - humorously, just kidding, ;-)

Because there are no native speakers of Lojban (well, not yet) there are very few rules for Lojban conversation and writing. Anyone who has tried speaking in a foreign language will know how easy it is to be rude without intending to. In English, for example, you have to choose between "Can you come over here?" "Could you possibly come here, please?" "Come here, will you?" or even "Hey you!" Lojban simplifies this considerably by separating the emotional and social content of a sentence from its literal meaning. I can just say:

* ko klama ti
* you! come here


or I can make it polite by saying pe'u ko klama ti - I don't have to disguise it as a question about your ability to come.


http://neptune.spaceports.com/~words/lojban.html

Unless of course you read this and were joking....
2005-01-11, 5:59 PM #11
Note: I have NOT read any articles, I just did a quick scan through this post as I'm strapped for time.

Just from reading the last post, I can see that something like phonics might be incredibly useful for this language if it doesn't exist yet. I was trying to pronounce the first few words listed and I was way off.
Little angel go away
Come again some other day
Devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say
2005-01-11, 6:00 PM #12
when I said we are not vulcans, I was refering to the fact that we as a people do not cope well with having major parts of our lives based on logic.

Also, a created language that is based on logic is wore because it has not had the ageing process and interminlgeisation (is that a word? :D ) with other languages.

These things are nessessary for a language to be a universal language.

The allowence for creativity and thinking out of the box: To keep us free thinking and allow us to have our cultures

Age: for trust and to allow change for the easy replacement and creation of new words.

A history that involves mixing with other languages: This is something that is evident when you look at certain europien languages. you can get a vauge idea of whaat is being said even if you have never had any lessons or only basic lessons on that language.

It also makes it easier for people of many different languages to pick up the basics and intermediates of the language.


to sum up: a language ased around logic that is culturaly neutral is only going to be spoken regularly by geeks that are even bigger than those that speak esperanto in schools today.

(not all esperanto speakers are geeks as esperanto is over 100 years old now.)
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)------@%
2005-01-11, 6:02 PM #13
I highly suggest you read the articles, alpha. Especially the one about the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, and it's relationship with lojban.

(Loglan, which Lojban is based on, was originally designed to test the hypothesis.)
2005-01-11, 6:10 PM #14
Quote:
to sum up: a language ased around logic that is culturaly neutral is only going to be spoken regularly by geeks that are even bigger than those that speak esperanto in schools today.


No! I will raise my children on Lojban, dammit!
2005-01-11, 6:18 PM #15
Quote:
Originally posted by Crimson
Note: I have NOT read any articles, I just did a quick scan through this post as I'm strapped for time.

Just from reading the last post, I can see that something like phonics might be incredibly useful for this language if it doesn't exist yet. I was trying to pronounce the first few words listed and I was way off.


Phonics are explained in the beginners course, at the very beginning.

http://ptolemy.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less1.html

Move foward and you will find the alphebet and pronounciation.
2005-01-11, 6:19 PM #16
you do know that not many people are going to be serious speakers of this language. And that the serious speakers probably wont be able to get a girlfriend as the girls might find them too geekish.

if by some chance, one does get married and has kids, raising them on lojban is a stupid idea as their will be som point in their life when they will need to communicate with the speakers country's official language.
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)------@%
2005-01-11, 6:31 PM #17
Quote:
Originally posted by alpha1
when I said we are not vulcans, I was refering to the fact that we as a people do not cope well with having major parts of our lives based on logic.


Warrant?


Quote:
Also, a created language that is based on logic is wore because it has not had the ageing process and interminlgeisation (is that a word? :D ) with other languages.


It HAS been mingled with other languages through computer. There's no unique reason or warrant behind why a good language has to be mingled in any other way.

Quote:
These things are nessessary for a language to be a universal language.


WHY?

Quote:
The allowence for creativity and thinking out of the box: To keep us free thinking and allow us to have our cultures


You have to think more outside the box with this language because it's inevitable at this stage that you will have to create your own compound words based on the 1300 or so root words. Using english words that your parents/teachers taught you isn't creative. Also, free thinking isn't mutually exclusive with any language. You can always think up new creative art or solutions to problems, etc. Language isn't a constraint to creativity.

Quote:
Age: for trust and to allow change for the easy replacement and creation of new words.


No reason why we can't learn it now, let it develop age and then permantly switch to it in the future when we're ready to take the bold step away from our ancient language crutch.

Quote:
A history that involves mixing with other languages: This is something that is evident when you look at certain europien languages. you can get a vauge idea of whaat is being said even if you have never had any lessons or only basic lessons on that language.

It also makes it easier for people of many different languages to pick up the basics and intermediates of the language.


Your impact to this argument is that the language is easier to learn if it has other language words in it, but this language has been designed to be easier to learn. Also, refer to above where I mention that the language was created directly from the vocabularly of a few major languages world wide.


Underview:

You seem to automatically reject this language because you feel that it won't be spoken by anyone but geeks, but why is this a disadvantage to the language itself? It's the idea that this language is going to fail that becomes a self-fufilling prophecy.
2005-01-11, 6:32 PM #18
Wow. Alpha. You are cool! You are so non-geeky!

I am proud to be a geek. I carry a chess set and chess clock to school, use Gentoo Linux, I preach W3C standards, and I learn Lojban.

You can go to parties, drink, and do all that "cool" stuff. And it makes you so much better than me.:rolleyes:

What's the point in living if you are constantly in fear of being "geeky"? That should not stop you in doing something you believe in.

Judging by your statements, it's pretty clear you didn't read any of the articles.
2005-01-11, 6:38 PM #19
also, didn't people say esperanto was going to replace other languages and bring up similar points. you can't just change a language. It would take decades to get things like legal documents for the mere proposition to change.

also, it would take too much time to get the lawbooks into the language so that they mean the exact same thing they mean now.

Another point, why would people give up ther own culture just to make some arrbitrary change to give the illusion of societies progression. I mean, who do we need to impress by showing that we can have a planet were everyone gave up their culture and spent the time to have a language that was made up on the spot.
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)------@%
2005-01-11, 6:40 PM #20
You obviously havn't read anything about the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.
2005-01-11, 6:42 PM #21
Quote:
Originally posted by alpha1


also, it would take too much time to get the lawbooks into the language so that they mean the exact same thing they mean now.



I really don't understand what you mean by that. (that's because you wrote it in english, not lojban! ;)) But if you are talking about legal documents, well being a logical language, Lojban is perfect for such tasks.
2005-01-11, 6:47 PM #22
I'm not so interested in a language designed to test the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, but I'd really like to see a conlang invented that tests the ideas of Chomsky's "principles and parameters" theory of innate language: could people learn a language that breaks the "universals" postulated in his theory?

On another note, anyone who's interested in constructed languages in general should check out http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html , a listserv specifically about creating new languages.
2005-01-11, 6:47 PM #23
Quote:
Originally posted by Mystic0
You obviously havn't read anything about the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.


I dont know what that is, but I can assume that a hypothesis that has to do with a massive society change can never be prooven or disprooven until it is actualy done. this would beespecialy true with languages as their are many cultures that would disaproove of having drastic changes made world wide.

hell, even some "hard-core sue the child's school because I know that I am right and religion is stupid and I don't care that I am the only one that hates it" atheists might have a problem with a huge change to worldwide behaviours.
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)------@%
2005-01-11, 6:59 PM #24
The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is basically a linguistic postulate proposed sometime in the early 20th century that claims that there is a strong relationship between the language in which one thinks and the way one thinks. The strongest form of the argument is that language itself determines thought, whereas a weaker (and more accepted) is that language has only some influence on the way we see the world.

Two of the most cited examples are the fact that color perception is defined by the words for color that a language has, and a recent study of a South American tribe that has no specific numbers: their language only has words for "one or two", "a few", and "many". In tests, they were able to match numbers of sticks fairly well up to 5 or 6, but with more difficulties beyond that. When shown a collection of items, and then asked to draw, from memory, one straight line for each item in the group, they only had (something like) a 75% rate of getting it right. This could suggest that since their language has no way of specifying the exact number, they're less capable of dealing with the idea of that number, itself.

On the other hand, you could argue that they just don't have any practice in such mathematical exercises, or that there was some other reason that they have numerical difficulties, which also causes their language to be number-deficient.

Orwell's Newspeak was something of an extension of this: if you don't have a word for "freedom", can you imagine the concept?

To give a more realistic example, without a word for "mammal", could we appreciate the concept it represents?

Basically, it comes down to the maxim: "How you think influences what you think"
2005-01-11, 6:59 PM #25
Alpha: If you havn't read it, then why don't you read it?

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