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ForumsDiscussion Forum → MMOs don't cut it...
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MMOs don't cut it...
2005-01-30, 6:24 PM #1
MMORPGs don't have at all the level of a game that I'd imagine they should, and probably could.

My MMO would focus around ROLE PLAYING. You are a character. Because of this, when creating your player, you lack complete control over it's making. You can choose it's race, or maybe a subrace, and how much of each parent is in the race, hair type (curly, strait, layered, etc. Your hair style changes when you get it cut, etc.), age range, and one of MANY starting professions. Then a few questions about your character, like how they'd react to a situation, their preference of the sea versus the woods, etc, would determine the fine-tuning of stats, as well as the starting location for the player, as well as the NPCs that are associated with that player. You'd start out a simple peasant, or maybe a merchant, living in a town. You can't see your stats, but based on your occupation, your stats range. You may be stronger physically, if you're a woodcutter.

Just the starting of your character ALONE is 20000000 times better than any current game. This insures unique characters that fit into the world, not ununique characters and a world that allows for a concept like that to occur.

Combat would be simple. Your strength only says what you can pick up and throw around. The damage of weapons is NOT based upon your strength. The game plays something like Jedi Academy, in that you can run around freely, jump, slow down, look around, all seemlessly. To attack someone, or something, you don't "initiate" anything. You walk up to them, and slash. A simple concept. Your blade goes through an object if it's got a lower hardness than your blade. A mace smashes things that have a low sturdiness, and an arrow pierces things that are sparsely covered. Magic is unhindered by physical armor, unless of course it's physical magic. Metal will not burn, etc. When someone strikes, their skill or proficiencies with that weapon tell how hard they are to block. If the enemy does not hit the block button when being attacked from ahead, he will take the damage, if any occurs. Blocks can be directed in front, behind, to the side, etc, all by the directional key.

Multiple weapons is handled the same way, except the weapon that is currently not being used to attack with is now blocking to it's side, as well as behind and in front diagonals of that side. Shields are always blocking that side and it's diagonals, as well.

Classes are abscent. You MIGHT have magical abilities, you might not. there are certain percentages to certain extra-abilities in each region. Some places might have a higher likelyhood for Drake-blood, a magical property blood. Spend time in the woods, and you start to become more attune to the concepts of the animals there. Animals might be more used to you. You may be of Woodland blood where animals have an immediate affinity to you. Classes are irrelivent if you're a well-rounded player.

Magic is far more mysterious in my MMO. Everthing has a life-force: Blood. There are other forms of life-force that can be tapped into, though. Only the more greusome magical groups use their own blood, or the blood of magical creatures as a form of magic. Religion, and the divine faith grants their follower's a divine force to deal their blows with. With this power, you can build your own magic. You must prepare your magic before you can just up and cast it (Except for natural magic, that which comes from you or the earth. These skills are passive though, faster running, stronger jumping, far sight, seeing in the dark, etc. If you have these skills naturally, they'll be yours forever). To prepare magic, you see what resources you have available. A necromancer may have slaughtered an Orc, drained his blood, ground up his bones, and now has a pound of orc bone, and 3 blatters of orc blood. With this, he can tap into eliments, types of attack, passive or casted, protection, auras, missiles, blessings, curses, what have you. some parts of magic require specific objects or types of magical force to 'build.' All of this is prepared beforehand, and the actual casting uses up the magical force, or the items used. Some magic can be made to last forever, but requires powerful and rare artifacts or a great deal of power accumulated. Groups can build some types of spells when working together.

I've got tuns more, but these are SIMPLE but importent aspects that would increase the gameplay of a lot of MMOs.

So, what are YOUR concept ideas for MMOs, or ANY game?

JediKirby
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2005-01-30, 6:26 PM #2
I like WoW. It was stupid, but then I played it and got addicted. Mmm... Icecream.
2005-01-30, 6:30 PM #3
geomodding! there is no game that couldn't be improved with a little geomod applied to it.
Stuff
2005-01-30, 6:31 PM #4
While we're at it why not just add ragdoll physics. :rolleyes:
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-01-30, 6:32 PM #5
:(

I JUST wrote up an outline for a cooking system on the thread in the showcase forum and lost it.

to sum it up: the system would parallel reality, characters' tastes (set by the player at creation) would affect the bonuses they receive from different foods. Basically you'd be presented with hundreds of ingredients in the form of meats, fish, water, plants, roots, rocks, snow, sugar, crabs, mussels, everything, really. You can combine stuff on certain surfaces, bowls, tree stumps, counters, tables. you can cook by placing the food in a pot over a fire, suspending it on a fork over a fire, putting it in an oven, on a stove, holding it over a fire with your hands, whatever. Each ingredient would have attributes that affect how they combine with other ingredients, and the resulting food item would have effects based on which aspects of the ingredients cancel each other out or fortify each other. If characters eat once a day, stats go up. If they never eat, stats go down. Under this system, it shouldn't be hard to get something to eat, though. They can pick some acorns, grind them into flour, add water, cook and make acorn pancakes, or something. What can I say, I'm a sucker for games with complicated cooking systems.
2005-01-30, 6:34 PM #6
A lot of things are easy in theory, but in implementation they can prove to be much more difficult.

For example, it's hard to focus an MMO around role playing because it involves work on the player's end. It doesn't matter what you do to gameplay; you are still going to have people walking around saying things like, "my bard character could kick ur warrior character's arse."
2005-01-30, 6:38 PM #7
I gave Kirby my Guild Wars weekend guest pass, then I realized there was a 90% chance he'd hate the game :(

I still love you. (maybe)
Think while it's still legal.
2005-01-30, 6:43 PM #8
None of my concepts are difficult codewise. None of them. I'm certain of this. They're just as complex as today's engines.

JediKirby
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2005-01-30, 6:45 PM #9
I read over your MMORPG idea. It seems like you want to include more of a life style and randomness to your games. Like The Sims aspects with less control..So more like real life. But people dont want to play life, they want to escape from it when they play games. They wan't to be in total control over there character.
Think while it's still legal.
2005-01-30, 6:55 PM #10
Quote:
Originally posted by jEDIkIRBY
None of my concepts are difficult codewise. None of them. I'm certain of this. They're just as complex as today's engines.

JediKirby


There's a difference between complexity and realistic expectations.

It's not very complicated to teach an AI agent the the entire wealth of human knowledge, it's not very realistic to do though. When you have to start making things interact properly on a massive scale, coming up with methods of doing thing in as efficient a way as possible is where the challenges lie. 10 years ago it wouldn't have been hard to make a world like S.T.A.L.K.E.R's where every piece of AI is run non-stop regardless of their position in relation to the player, what would have been hard is making it run acceptably. Games tend to lose a lot of their envisioned features and complexity as they get developed due to realisation that whilst they are individually quite easy to do, they are unmanagable overall.

Your ideas do have merit, and I agree that they aren't that complex, but it'll still be a while before it's done well even if a development studio devotes themselves fully to it.
Detty. Professional Expert.
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2005-01-30, 6:58 PM #11
Your magic theory sounds a lot like Gothic, which I loved because you didn't pick a class, you developed into what you wanted. Great game.
America, home of the free gift with purchase.
2005-01-30, 7:10 PM #12
By the way, I've coded all of these in RPGMaker3 before. None are difficult to encompace. Any lack I had in that was due to the fact that I was using a scripting based language, and didn't even have access to my own engine. I'm sure if I knew a language enough to write any of today's games, I could write my engine easily.

JediKirby
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2005-01-30, 7:19 PM #13
Quote:
Originally posted by jEDIkIRBY
By the way, I've coded all of these in RPGMaker3 before. None are difficult to encompace. Any lack I had in that was due to the fact that I was using a scripting based language, and didn't even have access to my own engine. I'm sure if I knew a language enough to write any of today's games, I could write my engine easily.

JediKirby


By "your engine", you mean the underlying logic of the systems, yes? Somehow I don't think you could EVEN COME CLOSE to coding an engine for a MMORPG. Hardly anyone can, individually.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-01-30, 7:20 PM #14
I'm saying I have the ability to, not that I could single handedly write an engine.

JediKirby
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2005-01-30, 7:22 PM #15
Quote:
Originally posted by jEDIkIRBY
I'm saying I have the ability to, not that I could single handedly write an engine.

JediKirby


The ability to what? You kinda crossed "write a MMORPG engine" off the list there.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-01-30, 7:27 PM #16
Quote:
You can't see your stats...


Also, you lost the min-maxer market right there, which outnumber RPers 5 to 1.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-01-30, 7:34 PM #17
You're looking for things to pick appart, now, and you're losing the meaning of my post. I'm not going to paly quote games with you. I'm saying that my ideas aren't difficult concepts to compile at all, as I've done minimalistic versions of them before. And not seeing your stats is a feature in my game, maybe it's flawed, but that doesn't detract from my opinion, or my overall argument. Like I said, stop looking for things to pick appart.

JediKirby
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2005-01-30, 7:35 PM #18
Quote:
Like I said, stop looking for things to pick appart.


I agree, stop picking apart perfectly awesome MMO's and making ideas for your own :)
Think while it's still legal.
2005-01-30, 7:41 PM #19
I hate SAJN_Master.
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2005-01-30, 7:42 PM #20
Quote:
Originally posted by jEDIkIRBY
By the way, I've coded all of these in RPGMaker3 before. None are difficult to encompace. Any lack I had in that was due to the fact that I was using a scripting based language, and didn't even have access to my own engine. I'm sure if I knew a language enough to write any of today's games, I could write my engine easily.

JediKirby


I doubt that. It's not about knowing the language; it's about knowing design patterns, algorithms, all of the concepts that are applicable to most programming languages. Writing lines of code is easy, but good programming is about good engineering.

If you've only ever scripted, there are a plethora of things that you aren't even taking into account. You have a nice sandbox to play in when it comes to writing scripts; you have to make the sandbox and all of its contents when you do real programming.
2005-01-30, 7:43 PM #21
Quote:
I hate SAJN_Master.


Ha, I caught you!
Think while it's still legal.
2005-01-30, 8:06 PM #22
I'm not looking for things to pick apart. I'm raising valid concerns here. There's a reason why every single MMO ever made only has 1 or 2 RP servers out of 20.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-01-30, 8:17 PM #23
So why is 10% of the market ignored when making the game? Perhaps showcasing stats could be a server option, then? Still, these are technicallities that don't apply to my overall argument.

JediKirby
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2005-01-30, 9:17 PM #24
I'd rather have an 80's themed MMORPG in a world akin to Mad Max.

Desolate Highways, muscle cars, and dudes with 3 foot tall mohawks.
2005-01-31, 1:09 AM #25
You absolutely cannot code a MMORPG engine in a scripting language. Also, Freelancer does bring up valid points.
Quote:
A necromancer may have slaughtered an Orc, drained his blood, ground up his bones, and now has a pound of orc bone, and 3 blatters of orc blood. With this, he can tap into eliments, types of attack, passive or casted, protection, auras, missiles, blessings, curses, what have you.

What about raw talent (à la Sorcerors from D&D)? Or intense study of magical works/properties except you focus on magics of the undead?

I'm not sure about the abscense of classes. It would be hard to categorize a group of people of similar talents. Sorcerors != Wizards for example. One's ability comes from study, the other's is inherent. I believe classes are well suited for (MMO)RPG.

Quote:
The damage of weapons is NOT based upon your strength.
Big flaw. If me, a skinny guy who barely can bench press his own body weight picks up a sword and swings it at opponent, my swing might ricochet off the armor. Suppose I get BIG HUGE MUSCLES. I take another whack and I cleave the ******* in tway. I do like your realistic take on weaponry. If I have a BIG HUGE SWORD. I want my BHS to lob your head off and not take off 25 hp.

My take.
Code to the left of him, code to the right of him, code in front of him compil'd and thundered. Programm'd at with shot and $SHELL. Boldly he typed and well. Into the jaws of C. Into the mouth of PERL. Debug'd the 0x258.
2005-01-31, 2:09 AM #26
Suppose I have a sword laser sharpened to some extreme degree.

Bet I could hack your arm off in one fluid swing.
2005-01-31, 6:07 AM #27
I think there should be a mmo game that isn't based on becoming a "level 59 dragon slayer" or getting "6,045 experience points for killed 870 lizards."
2005-01-31, 6:18 AM #28
Quote:
So why is 10% of the market ignored when making the game?

To be honest, I think it's pretty the good ol' money issue. 90% of the customers want to see their stats. Hence, they've put in there. I overall like the ideas that you have presented here, Kirby. Honestly, you really oughta look into building a Persistant World for Neverwinter Nights. I don't think you'd be able to completely build all your ideas into it(magic, for one, unless you're going to do some extremely heavy HAK editing and script editing), and stats-wise might pose a problem, although it might be slightly doable.

The only real thing that I just can't find in your concept is how this MMO would really center around roleplaying. In the end, everything still boils down to the various statistics that each player has, the only difference is that the players can't see said stats. Still, what is going to stop me from going against everything that I had established in the character statistics? For example: (and I'm making these up as I go along) Perhaps I chose being a Merchant as a starting profession so that I receive some extra golden coins so I can buy a really strong sword, but go around saying that I've been a fighter since birth, but merely want to buy a sword that my race can handle well.

Simply put, saying that a certain ruleset is focused at roleplaying is, in my humble opinion, rubbish. Your proposed ruleset seems to, from what I've read, still be like the various fantasy rulesets out there. Statistics give me bonuses when I do something, statistics can give me penalties when I do something... what makes this MMO, in any fashion, more focused on roleplaying than any other MMORPG out there?

The only factor that can really make a MMORPG focused on roleplaying is the players and how much it is enforced. Which is why I think it can work better with Persistant Worlds, like Neverwinter Nights. I've heard of worlds where you basically have to roleplay, else you're simply kicked/banned by one of the admins or DMs. Now, seeing as how there are dozen PWs out there, each PW tends to be a small community on their own, which is easily to police and monitor. It works for everyone. Players can go to a PW which is focused on what they like, and the admins can easily remove someone who becomes a nuisance. They get no money from said player as it is, so no real represcussions either.

Plus, from what I've seen, most MMORPGs just aren't built to be roleplayed in as it is. There are always appear to be three groups of characters...
  • Heroes - The players. Larger than life who do incredibly deeds. There are quite a few of them out there as well.
  • NPCs - Folks who are either doing nothing, or are there to help the heroes.
  • Monsters - Folks who are either doing nothing, or are there to attack the heroes.

Now simply, how can you roleplay in a world like that? How can you play a completely-developed character when you're, basically, doing the same thing that dozens of other people are doing as well? How can your incredible tales be told of your adventures, when a few dozen people had done the same thing before you? Just what can you roleplay, when everyone who isn't a hero, basically keeps on saying and doing the same thing for you?

I especially see this problem when they build MMORPGs centered around established setting. If I recall correctly, there were not a few hundred heroes running around in Star Wars. If I've heard correctly, Warcraft did not have thousands of heroes running around, slaughtering each other. The only MMORPG which I've seen doing it right is City of Heroes, where each player is established as a hero, and there are thousands of normal people(NPCs) walking around leading their life, and being attacked by monsters which make sense for the (if somewhat silly) setting.

So offer dozens of possibilities on what players can do? Perhaps. I'm just curious what kind of ideas you'd have for that, Kirby, for your MMO. I've only seen the ruleset so far. How would your MMO center around roleplaying exactly?

Basically, this is a long-winded version of what SG1_129 typed. It involves work on the player's end as well, and the options they're presented with. Rulesets be damned. Again, there is no ruleset which can be more oriented at RPing. D&D, V:TM, SW-D20... basically, how they're being used for RPing is up to the players. Any ruleset can basically be changed to something RP-wise. Hell, I'm pretty sure you can turn Tic Tac Toe into an elaborate Shakespear play if you'd want.
The answer is maybe.
2005-01-31, 6:31 AM #29
I agree with Kirby. I'd like to have an MMO that was class-less. I'd want it to be as realistic as possible. You know why? Not to escape reality, but to play a false reality where I could do whatever I want. I want to be able to buy a lighter, and burn things down. I want to be able to climb a building and hang-glide off of it to some place miles away. The only problem is, making something like this would take a long time and a lot of storage space to put every detail and option imaginable together. It's a nice thought though.
Who made you God to say "I'll take your life from you"?
2005-01-31, 11:44 AM #30
Check this out for a long but interesting and largely correct bunch of articles about what is wrong with MMORPGs and how to fix them.

Its filled with education historic material!
-El Scorcho

"Its dodgeball time!" -Stormy Waters
2005-01-31, 11:56 AM #31
Quote:
Originally posted by jEDIkIRBY
By the way, I've coded all of these in RPGMaker3 before. None are difficult to encompace. Any lack I had in that was due to the fact that I was using a scripting based language, and didn't even have access to my own engine. I'm sure if I knew a language enough to write any of today's games, I could write my engine easily.

JediKirby


No offense but...you do realise that it takes a large team of programmers years and hundreds of thousands of dollars of development costs to produce the current crappity crap large scale MMORPGs on the market.

But if you think spending some time within RPGMaker3's scripting language affords you the ability to write the engine's rending, gameplay and large scale networking code...you're welcome to try. And if you succeed, please tell me where I can get RPGMaker3 because I would also like to be the richest and most talented programmer in the universe.

:D
-El Scorcho

"Its dodgeball time!" -Stormy Waters
2005-01-31, 1:25 PM #32
Quote:
Originally posted by El Scorcho
No offense but...you do realise that it takes a large team of programmers years and hundreds of thousands of dollars of development costs to produce the current crappity crap large scale MMORPGs on the market.


Actually, that's not entirely true. Asheron's call was developed with only a handful of programmers, and Eternal Lands (even though it's not the largest or the greatest MMORPG) only took one programmer. So the above is a bit of a myth, which is actually understandable now that things pertaining to MMORPG development are becoming more documented.
2005-01-31, 1:37 PM #33
Takes one hell of a talented programmer to be able to pull that off. But you're forgetting art, sound, server maintenance, software maintenance, and the large amount of capital to get started...
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-01-31, 1:49 PM #34
Quote:
Originally posted by Freelancer
Takes one hell of a talented programmer to be able to pull that off. But you're forgetting art, sound, server maintenance, software maintenance, and the large amount of capital to get started...


Yes, it would take a talented programmer to pull off a quality MMORPG engine, but it wouldn't take a god programmer. And yes, programming is really only a part of the battle, there are of course loads of other things that goes into a game on a normal size, let alone on a scale of this magnitude, but that wasn't my point. My point was that the need for an enormous team of programmers for an MMO is not entirely valid.
2005-01-31, 2:04 PM #35
Quote:
Originally posted by SG1_129
Actually, that's not entirely true. Asheron's call was developed with only a handful of programmers, and Eternal Lands (even though it's not the largest or the greatest MMORPG) only took one programmer. So the above is a bit of a myth, which is actually understandable now that things pertaining to MMORPG development are becoming more documented.


Quite possibly true. Perhaps I am subscribing to a myth. Although MMORPGs are IMO the absolute hardest genre to create for. They are a relatively new genre however.

I've been checking out game developer forums on occasion lately, and most of the page is filled with people saying "I don't know how to program or do art or anything...how do I make a MMORPG?"
-El Scorcho

"Its dodgeball time!" -Stormy Waters
2005-01-31, 2:17 PM #36
Yeah.. that's always hilarious. What's more hilarious is to watch their reaction as you tell them to start with Pong.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-01-31, 2:27 PM #37
Quote:
Originally posted by SAJN_Master
I gave Kirby my Guild Wars weekend guest pass... (maybe)


IMO, Guild Wars is far from a MMORPG from what I've seen in the open weekends. In a way, it's like Diablo 2 but with fully animated chat rooms. So I guess I just get annoyed when people refer to it as a MMORPG.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that I'm really looking forward to the game. :P
2005-01-31, 2:28 PM #38
sounds like fun in an "excessive hassle" kinda way.
2005-01-31, 2:30 PM #39
It isn't an MMO, but it's close enough. In the betas so far many areas weren't finished or were closed off. But then again MMORPG means Massive Multiplayer Online RPG. GuildWars is one hell of a massive multiplayer online game :) But yes I see what you mean.
Think while it's still legal.
2005-01-31, 2:34 PM #40
I wonder though, would it really be that massive if it wasn't advertised as so?
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