It's not a question of morality. It's a statement of morality. You are enjoying the benefits of someone else's work without their consent.

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Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent.

-R.D. Laing

Now that's a better argument. What if the artist states that it's alright to download their music, but the RIAA (which rules over this hypothetical artist) says that it's not. Does your statement of morality apply to a situation such as this? Not being sarcastic, I enjoy hearing the oppositions point of view on these matters. What is the difference between enjoying the benefits of someone else's work by listening to it on the radio (legally) and then going and downloading that song to listen to as much as you want (illegally). You've already heard the song and made a conscious decision that it's not quite good enough to spend money on, what would be wrong with that? Then we jump in to the realm of intellectual property rights and things of that nature. It's all a complex issue being debated by people far more intelligent than us, and I have faith that common sense will prevail.

The artist should be compensated, but prices should be cheaper, and the RIAA should be taking measures to see that this happens. Sadly, they're doing the opposite. Tangible CD's are nice, but the RIAA is suffering for their inability to get involved with the distribution of music over the internet, soon enough. If they're losing money, it has more to do with a lack of vision, than illegal file-sharing.

Personally, I don't see illegal file-sharing having anything to do with morality in my case. I download music that I enjoy and if I like it enough, I purchase it. I don't share music with people over the internet, but I do support those who make the decision to do so. I think that most consumers use file-sharing as a means to discover and try out new music, and the articles that I posted earlier support my opinion. I don't consider enjoying someone's works without their consent as being immoral, and quite frankly, I'm suprised to see that there are people that have that opinion. As long as the artist isn't losing money, I think it's perfectly fine and dandy.

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www.MentatMM.com (status = down :/)
Napalm Death Squad (status = alpha)

Exactly.

See, I stopped using filesharing to get major songs and stuff, I just kind of slowed down intill it became pointless for me.

I use it primarily to get sound clips from movies or shows, or maybe songs that aren't out somewhere on CD.


I also use it to get foriegn music, Its not like I can just walk down to my local music store and buy Do as infinity albums.

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Signature.

*so original*

So if you think cereal is expensive that gives you the right to go out to the grocery store and steal it?

The issue with downloading is because it is online. People do not associate it as being illegal since it's online. The phsyical lack of grabbing a CD off the shelf and listening to it (and possibly keeping it) is gone, and instead you just *click click click* and you have an album.

MentatMM:
The problem with the study you posted is that you are summing up it's claim for the entire music industry.

This is the important part of study: "they concluded that file sharing actually increases CD sales for hot albums that sell more than 600,000 copies"

Now, my issue with people downloading is not on the big artists.

My issue is that it IS hurting the small labels and the underground bands. This is not based on some study, this is based on actual excerts of artists witnessing the scene fail.

Also: Studies can show anything. The article also mentions twice as many studies that shows downloading does hurt the business. Anyone see the study that showed streching before exercise does not pervent injuries? That's crap....

Now, lets look at this even from a non $ perspective.

Labels see album sales... Now, all of you have your reasons like "CD's too expensive, artists don't get the money", etc. That's fine...I'll grant you that. As a musician working on a potential solo album, I know that this is not the business to get into if you want to make money.

Now grant that, labels see sales as I said. Meaning, If 100,000 people download an album, but only 1,000 people buy the actual album.... The label sees "1000 people". They don't really care about how many downloads there are, or how many people like the band.

If a band does not sell huge numbers, then labels are not going to support future artists in that same type genre.

People complain all the time about the music scene in US, all sounds the same. Did you ever think it's because labels DON'T want to take chances?

OMG! NEWS SHOCK! LABELS ARE IN IT FOR THE MONEY! (Although there is a small % in it for the music)

So, all these people here on Massassi, elsewhere, that download the non-popular albums and bands, you are not helping keeping that music going.

People download soundtracks all the time (On gaming forums a lot do). Soundtracks in reality are not a very big market for music. So you all who keep downloading soundtracks, enjoy the music, but realize that labels watch the sales. If a particular item sells good, they notice. Anyone see how after the Gladiator soundtrack sold so well, they released "Addional music from Gladiator".

In summary: My issue with downloaders is not on big bands or multiplatinum albums. My issue is on you hurting the labels, and the artists who won't get a label because it's not profitable. It is a fact. Labels are going out of business. All the time, small artists will issue statements how "downloaders are hurting the small bands". And realize, like it or not, it is illegal what you are doing. You can put all the spin in the world on it, can have all the reasons in the world why you do it, but at the end of the day - you're wrong.

Of course I believe that the music belongs to the artists, regardless of what the contract says. If the artist says, "Download your heart out," then I see nothing wrong with that, though I'll still abstain from downloading.

As for the radio, the radios have paid the artists/labels for the right to broadcast the music. They are given only the right to broadcast, and not distribute. Thus, when you record something off of the radio, it can be assumed that you generally doing so without the artists' permission. Unless, as I said above, they have publicly stated that they don't mind.

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Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent.

-R.D. Laing

And radio stations pretty much only play singles, which are songs the bands picked to be released. They rarely (if ever) play entire albums.

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Roach - Caught in the war of hemispheres.
0 of 14.

I've seen requested songs from albums become number one hits...

But reguardless, most people only download singles...so what's your point?

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"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."

Can you back that up, or are you just assuming?

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Roach - Caught in the war of hemispheres.
0 of 14.

Its a technicallity the point is downloading a single or an entire alblum is still the same priciple. Someone took the time to make it and they are not getting paid as much for their work as they deserve because people are stealing their songs...

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<Outlaw_Torn> you mean your related to that damned sasquatch, Mech?
<MechWarrior> Lets just say the part of the family tree that does fork has bossy the goat in it.

<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?

I agree with whole albums, but not with singles. Singles used to be sold in stores, but they are rare these days. If it's a popular single, it's played several times an hour on the airwaves and is availible to the public at no cost.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

ok, how about ripping your bought CD's. is that rong?

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IMPORTANT NOTICE PLEASE READ

Employees dying on the job are faling to fall down. THIS PRACTICE MUST STOP as it becmes impossible to distinguish between death and the natural movement of he staf.

Any employee found dead in an upright position will be dropped from the payroll.

What do you mean by ripping?

If you mean burning the CD to your computer as mp3's...no I see nothing wrong with that. I do it with all my CD's, as its easier for me when playing guitar to just start a new mp3 versus putting in different CD's.

But if you mean by burning mp3's, and then connecting to a file sharing program, than yes...that is 'rong'.

And if you just mean making a copy for a friend...why not have the friend come over and listen to your CD, or borrow your copy.

What do you mean by ripping?

If you mean burning the CD to your computer as mp3's...no I see nothing wrong with that. I do it with all my CD's, as its easier for me when playing guitar to just start a new mp3 versus putting in different CD's.

But if you mean by burning mp3's, and then connecting to a file sharing program, than yes...that is 'rong'.

And if you just mean making a copy for a friend...why not have the friend come over and listen to your CD, or borrow your copy.

Demon_Nightmare:

I agree with much of what you said, and since I only listen to artists that are virtually unheard of in the US, I can understand your concern.

However, I think that you're overlooking one thing. The smaller artists could possibly be making more money due to file-sharing. There are many artists who can contribute 90% of their popularity to file-sharing (legal and illegal). A good example of this would be Trance Control.

Personally, I can attribute every CD that I've ever bought to file-sharing (legal and illegal). I would have never heard music from the artists that are now my favorites, if it weren't for illegal file-sharing, which means that I would have never purchased their CD's.

To give you an example, I've purchased 5 albums from one of my favorite artists (Juno Reactor), due to me being able to download and sample their music, illegally. They're become popular recently due to their work on the Matrix soundtracks, but I've been listening to their music since 1998. Not only have artists such as this profited from me and many others, due to file-sharing (legal and illegal), but they've also profited because people like me spread the word about their favorite artists, sometimes resulting in even more sales (I can speak from personal experiences in this matter).

File-sharing (legal and illegal) is a double-edged sword, if you buy the hype put out by the RIAA, but for people like me who know for certain that their favorite artists have profited because of illegal file-sharing, it's just a sword. I think at the end of the day, it all balances out. It's all going to be interesting when more comprehensive studies are done.

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www.MentatMM.com (status = down :/)
Napalm Death Squad (status = alpha)

how abvout you get a job.

In Australia, miniumum wage is around AU$6.00 an hour. That means that you can get a CD for one day of work. This is because it only costs around AU$36.00 at the most to buy a cd. It is almost always even less.

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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

the only thing I ever "stole" was when i accidently went ouut of a friends house still wearing something from their costume box (I was about 7 or 8 then). So don't just blindly accuse people.

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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

because, if they download a song and they like it, why the hell would they go out and buy a cd when they have the song. that is what the previews on sites like amazon are for. they contain part of a song so you can see if you like it.



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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

I've bought 9 albums by artists I like, each one by a different band. And I don't download mp3s very often anyway. iTunes is more fun.

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

Oops, didn't mean to double post up there.

MentatMM:

I used to be a downloader, back in the Napster days. It was mainly because I found this one CD here in the states of a type of music that is predominant in Europe, and so I had no access to get other CD's in the same style.

So for about 6 months I went on a huge downloading craze...discovering new artists, etc. After Audiogalaxy went down though, I pretty much quit. This was after some of the bands I had been downloading started complaining about it, and I realized my faults. Now, I own every CD that I downloaded songs from, and now I listen to samples or previews that are legal on websites.

So I can get what you are saying, but there are tons of sites out there where you can get samples (like someone said). When I was downloading, this whole "RIAA" issue was nonexistant...and so I was ignorant to the effects.

Like you said, it's a double-bladed sword. I don't feel the same on the issue of artist breaking even in the end. Yes, artists do get sales (Like you and myself), but for every person I know who is TRUTHFULLY honest in that they buy what they like, there are 10 people I know who don't. That's just from my perspective...


Also: to the person who listened to Blind Guardian, Rhapsody, and Opeth... There are plenty of places in the US to get those CD's (and not at the high import prices).

www.theendrecords.com
www.lasercd.com
www.cdinzane.com

All those are quality sites for getting the type of European metal you are interested in. All at normal CD price...

Are you being sarcastic? It's difficult for me to believe that someone could actually think that a CD is worth a day's work. Many of us have important things to do with our hard earned money, like paying automobile insurance, or trying to keep our electricity from being turned off. If I purchased every mp3 that I have, even at iTunes prices, I'd be paying almost as much for my music as I did for my car.

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www.MentatMM.com (status = down :/)
Napalm Death Squad (status = alpha)

/me likes Blind Guardian as well. One of the few guitar-wielding groups that I can still tolerate. Their accustic stuff is great.



That may very well be true. I'd like to think that it isn't, but I suppose that only time will tell.

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www.MentatMM.com (status = down :/)
Napalm Death Squad (status = alpha)

AU $36.00? That's outrageous! $26.00 USD for a CD? Do they import everything?!


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Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent.

-R.D. Laing

seeing as that is the pay for casual positions that are filled by teens doing casual work, it is about right. Australia has much a much better system for financial support.

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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

seeing as that is the maximum price, I would say yes. this is because we don't have a branch that makes all those cd's as it is much easier to get stocks from overseas. also, i say againn that AU$36 is not that much to us as we don't pay exhorbatent prices for the items that we need to live.

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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

Also, one thing alot of you are missing is that music is not a neccesity. if you can't afford to buy a cd, then why are you spending mony on the internet to download these things.

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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

Just because something isn't a necessity doesn't mean they should charge outrageous prices for music. iTunes' prices are a step in the right direction, but still too expensive for me. I don't see prices falling anytime soon, at least not for big name artists.

You make a valid point about necessity, but I love my music, and to me, music is necessary to maintain my quality of life. Sure, I won't die without it, but there would be a void that couldn't be filled.

I have very high standards when it comes to music, and most of the free stuff out there doesn't satisfy me. Asking someone like me to stop downloading music, is like asking a couch potato to stop watching television. While that may be pathetic to some of you, my music is an important part of my life. I buy what I can, and enjoy the rest for free. Either way, I don't share music, except for burning the occasional CD for a friend, and I honestly don't see anything wrong with that.

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www.MentatMM.com (status = down :/)
Napalm Death Squad (status = alpha)

If every debater on Massassi could be like you MentatMM...

Most of the CDs I buy cost £7-8. Unless it's a Greatest Hits or something, in which case it's usually a bit more (about £12).

By no means can I afford to go out any buy CDs non-stop, but I do my best to buy complete albums of band's whose songs i've downloaded. Gradually converting my downloaded files into legal ones.

Anyway, it's nice having a shelf of CDs.

Im so sick of this bull crap, its not the consumer that needs to take the f'ing hint, its the damn companies, whatever happend to "the customer is always right"???? We own the companies, without us they die, if we say its too expensive, then they lower the price, or we pirate, and they fail. Simple as that.

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"Ahhhh!! I'm Burnin'! I'm Burnin!!!" - Cleaner from Max Payne 2

How about you get off my back. For your information I DO have a job. I do NOT like blowing 20 bucks just for one CD. I average about 3 to 5 CDs a year that I acutally buy. The rest are CDs that I borrow from friends and rip to my computer (Those NEVER see the internet. AT ALL.) or much cheaper 5 dollar CDs that I get from people around school who produce their own music. Now then, in terms of actually downloading... I hear a song on the radio. I want it, but not necessiarily the whole CD seeing as I know nothing of the artist other than that song. I don't buy music blindly. I'll download that one song. Or I'll download a minimum of 3 to 4 songs off an album at random to get an idea of what I'll buy spending money on. If I feel it's worth my 20 bucks, then I buy it. If not, I haven't spent money on something I don't really like, and the RIAA hasn't lost a CD sale due to the fact that I downloaded the whole album. They lost it due to the fact that I don't like it, which is perfectly normal.



One, who said all of us "pay" for a connection? I have a very unique situation in terms of my connection. A situation I will not delve into here. Two, we have this connection becuase we don't just download music. The internet is a big place. We use to for research. We use to communicate. We use it to debate things such as this. We use it for fun. We use it to get points across. And yes, we use it for illegal activities like pirating software and downloading music.

As you can see, no one here is paying for a connection to just download music. They pay for it to do all or some of the aforementioned.

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Frogblast the Vent Core!

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