I saw photos on T.V I hope pictures like this will spread around so that people will start thinking with their conscious instead of their greed. I also heard that the Americans administration is afraid of such pictures being spread around and anti-war resentiment might rise again. I'm fully aware that many innocent Iraqi civilians are being injured and killed by US bombs, and that's horrific. Honestly, thoughts like this plague me every day... I do not consider myself truly pro- or anti-war, but that does not make me indifferent.
WARNING:
Activating the links below will display images of a GRAPHIC and DISTURBING nature, be aware of that before clicking. I would advise anyone in here especially young and sensitive members if you go to these sites, are aware you are going to see dead people of both sides.

http://www.antiwar.com/doverimages/gallery3.htm

http://militarycoffins.bootnetworks.com/

http://www.marchforjustice.com/Shock&Awe_files/frame.htm

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm

http://alsaha2.fares.net/sahat?14@183.a4OgkyQvll9.6@.1dd56cad

http://alsaha2.fares.net/sahat?128@183.a4OgkyQvll9.7@.1dd576bc

http://alsaha2.fares.net/sahat?128@183.a4OgkyQvll9.7@.1dd57887

http://www.internationalanswer.org/

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Special%20Reports/Different%20special%20reports/Photos%20of%20Iraq%20war%20victims.htm

http://www.aljazeera.net/news/arabic/2003/3/3-22-26.htm

http://www.ccmep.org/iraq.html

War is bad... What's your point?

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The Massassi-Map
There is no spoon.

That he's better than us because he's willing to "expose" those horrors to all the "blind" western people (namely Americans).

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Roach - Caught in the war of hemispheres.
0 of 14.

Um, hello? The US government released tons of those photos after they were requested under the Freedom of Information Act.

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EvilMagic.net: Brian's Web Log

It also seems to me that those handling the coffins are doing so with the utmost respect and admiration.

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EvilMagic.net: Brian's Web Log

What amazes me to an insane degree is the stupidness of some people.

Lets see.

Saddam Hussian. He's an angel. He's just so good. I mean... gassing and killing 5000 of his OWN people...I mean thats just awesome! How good a person is he!

Thats just one of his crimes. Im glad someone stood up and did what had to be done.

Now the US administration is not all that good. Im quite happy to admit it.
But they are a helluva lot better than Hussian.

I fully support Bush (well... for the war, and for a few of his ideas too)

I fully support Blair.

I fully support Howard.

I do NOT support the UN. Given their support for the forced family restrictions in China, and a few other things, I have no respect for them whatsoever.

Whats next? Hitler vindicated, Churchill turns out to be war monger?! Im surprised it hasn't already come to this.

I'm not happy that war happened. I hate war. It is not good. Those pictures (I havent looked, nor will I) express that. Watch a film like Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan, The Hunt for Red October. You see the uselessness of war.

But unfortunatly, it was and still is needed. When diplomacy doesnt work, sometimes things have to come to blows. It's not good.

Having said that, Im happy that Saddam is out. He was a terrible dictator who murdered his own people. Good riddance.

And for the people who say otherwise: Go and live like some of his people did.

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Founder of the Massassi Brute Squad (MBS)

B'tduz: A popular dwarfish game which consists of standing a few feet apart and throwing large rocks at one another's head.

"Yes, it's a bloody flying alligator setting fire to my city!" - His Grace His Excellency the Duke of Ankh, Commander Sir Samuel Vimes.

Morituri Nolumus Mori

Regardless of whether or not we should have gone to Iraq in the first place, we cant just pack up and leave the country now. We started this, its our responsibility to finish it. If the US troops pulled out, chaos, famine, and death would take over the country. It would not be long before civil war would erupt was the various factions attempted to take control of the government.

I am not entirely convinced that we should have invaded Iraq, or that we did so for the right reasons, but I am very certain that we cannot leave the country now that our forces have already been commited.

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And everything under the sun is in tune, but the sun is eclipsed by the moon...
DSettahr's Homepage | Cantina Cloud | Rally NY

[This message has been edited by DSettahr (edited April 28, 2004).]

Armchair soldiers who think they know what it might be like to risk your life daily over there?

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"Music is the universal language and the
dialect we speak in is Hip Hop!" - King Solomon

I guess you didnt click that far down, but only the first few are of military coffins. There's a few blokes on fire, wounded soldiers and such a few links further on.

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The Massassi-Map
There is no spoon.

No one in their right mind supports Saddam, not even us anti-war campaigners. I respect your opinion, but I think you need to do a little research to get your facts straight and not flatly believe everything you hear. It's your opinion and you're entitled to it, dont waste it on inane generalisations and farcical convictions.

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The Massassi-Map
There is no spoon.

On a completely different note, anyone see Gaddafi's trip to the EU? Haha, guys with Gaddafi shirts outside playing bongo drums, female bodyguards running all over the place and Gaddafi in his tent specially set up on the Belgium Palace's lawn, making peace overtures to the world.

Castro's another one, sure they kick some heads in when they're at home, but whenever they go overseas, it's like the circus has come to town.

Indeed. Such an angel, in fact, that Donald Rumsfeld shook his hand while he was committing those atrocities.


-Fox

There are dictators who do exactly what Sadam did everywhere, and Sadam had been doing this forever. I think it's about time the different countries of the world start forgetting about the starving kids in africa, about a dictator in some other country, and start worrying about all the poor people facing death in your own damn country. Helping other people may not be such a bad thing, but a country with just as much deaths a day (probably more, for some countries) can't really help another.

JediKirby

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

The world isn't quite as simple as 'Saddam Hussein bad, therefor he must be gotten rid of'.

Saddam Hussein acted as a floodgate for the many opposing factions and warlords throughout the country, and did a great job of uniting Iraq and making sure it didn't implode. Under Saddam, Iraq had extremely good public services, schools and health care amongst the best in the region, matched only by Saudi Arabia. Iraq also had very good women's rights.

But the only way he could achieve this was by oppressing the many warring factions.

Iraq without Saddam isn't exactly a peaceful haven of democracy.

What the US is learning from the Felujah situation and the many other disturbances across Iraq is that they have to start acting more like Saddam Hussein.
Iraq is not Britain, Iraq is not the United States, and Iraq won't become either.
In developing countries, dictatorships are the only way to go about things. Everything is much easier, without having to bother with the whole election thing; Britain existed for over 1,000 years under a dictatorship and came to rule half the world. Only a handful of those dictators would be considered 'ruthless'.

Maybe Iraq isn't ready at this time for democracy; China has proved that trying to 'accelerate' social evolution doesn't really work very well.
Maybe Iraq will never be ready for democracy; democracy is a distinctly Western concept and Asian countries are far more accepting of authoritarian governments, and value other things more than democracy. Trying to impose democracy is incredible ethnocentric.

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited April 28, 2004).]

What about a benevolent dictator? You said that pretty much the eastern half of the world doesn't care for democracy and is totally content with authortarianism. You are right if I'm remembering history correctly (Chinese dynasties, Japan's shoguns, Ottoman Empire, etc.)

One can still be nice and yet proclaim "I'm the boss, you're not." Perhaps this is what the region really needs. It's just that Saddam got power hungry and did EVERYTHING possible to maintain his firm grip.

World could use a little more authortarianism. Bring order to chaos.

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Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.

While I agree mostly with what you are saying, I would like to point out that "good" is relative. Compared to what we are giving them, Saddam was a hack. There was a poll taken in Iraq (i think by CBS) and it had things like: (Water, electricity, employment, etc, etc,) was better under Saddam or US occupation? US occupation got the most responses except when it came to safety. Thus lies the main problem with the current situation and democracy as a whole.

yes.....by not doing it. They saw what happened to Russia when they tried to change overnight and are instead doing their changes in baby steps. And they are very well off.

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Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a *****?

I see a recurring theme in a lot of those sites. Whities bad, non-whities good. Holocaust is old news, anything other than the Holocaust is extremely relevant.

What about the Sudan? Oh, wait, but that's Arabs killing blacks, not whities killing people.

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Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

Under Saddam, some people had access to good healthcare. What about the entire villages that he gassed out of existance? Where are all of the pictures of the people he had killed?

Firefox, what point are you trying to make? All national leaders shake hands when they meet.

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right." -Isaac Asimov

Mao tried to really speed up various processes, mostly military, some social policies, to try and catch up with the US, and do so in 5 years or less. As you can imagine, it imploded.

and to everyone going about the whole 'Saddam gassed his own people' thing...

Prove it.

Where is your evidence? Yes, I've heard in the news plenty of times too, but I've never heard anyone prove it was the Iraqi military that was reponsible.
It was during the Iraq-Iran war and a Kurdish border town was indeed gassed, but it could have been the Iranians that set it off.

Also I love it how you make it sound like Saddam Hussein personally wandered into the town (the name escapes me), puts down the weapon and walks off whistling to himself and then sets it off personally while cackling in glee as he watches Kurdish children die. If it WAS Iraq, it would have been to kill Iranian troops, or to prevent them from taking over the region, and the Kurds were 'collateral damage'. Now I really do hate that term, but I think it somewhat hypocritical of the Americans to claim that civilian deaths when invading Iraq were acceptable, but civilian deaths when Iraq was defending against Iran is not.

It would be frankly ridiculous for any government to set off a weapon with the sole intention of killing its own civilians. The Ba'ath party were authoritarian, but not stupid. Chemical weapons are not cheap or easy to produce, and there really is no advantage whatsoever to simply using them to kill a load of Kurds out of the blue. I really hope you don't seriously believe that.

.... The hypocrisy that is as subtle as a freight train?


-Fox

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Brian. Are you trying to disprove the aforequoted point? Because you didn't. If anything, you strengthened the pre-posters statement, by admitting that someone had to go through the Freedom of Information act to get them. (That usually means the government isn't just going to hand them out voluntarily)

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******
Taking credit for: Canyon Stream, Higher Ground, The Space Between, Death's Dome (mlp3), bits of JKRPG, and the entire Showcase forum, damnit!... Visit SWGalaxies.net for the latest Star Wars: Galaxies information!

[This message has been edited by Juztyn (edited April 28, 2004).]

I go to school with this jerk who's horribly racist, and every other word that comes out of his mouth starts with the letter N. I was assigned to do a project with him for english. Does that mean I'm supposed to shoot him in the forehead? No. While I agree that dealing with such a bad person isn't very healthy, and probably doesn't make me look all that good, it's still something I, and many foreign relations have to deal with. If we had a picture of everyone who shook hands, not because they wanted to, but because they were required to... well, maybe you'd have a few less friends yourself, firefox?

JediKirby

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

Interesting...the thread author's only post was the starting post of this thread.

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"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity."

-Albert Einstein

Nice. I havent done too much reading about it, but the kurd incident alone in my opinion almost justifies the war.

Ill withdraw from this now I think. You fellas fight it out


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Founder of the Massassi Brute Squad (MBS)

B'tduz: A popular dwarfish game which consists of standing a few feet apart and throwing large rocks at one another's head.

"Yes, it's a bloody flying alligator setting fire to my city!" - His Grace His Excellency the Duke of Ankh, Commander Sir Samuel Vimes.

Morituri Nolumus Mori

We smells a troll...yes precious, yes.

Anyways, whether we were right to invade Iraq or not is a moot point now, don't ya think? Fact is we just can't pull out of there. That would be completely irresponsible, as well as criminal.

And Mort, not trying to be an *** , but where's your proof? If you're gonna demand they provide proof, then you need to provide proof yourself.

Pulling out early is always inconsiderate.

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Hahaha, clownsuit.

Indeed. That leaves room for too many unpleasant surprises.


-Fox

oh, you were talking about China back when Mao was in power. Sorry, I thought you meant China in its current state.

oh my god, Rumsfeld shook Saddam's hand during a meeting! He's a ba'athist now that likes to subjucate all those around him. It doesn't matter that shaking the persons hand is how you properly greet someone, Rumsfeld is bad for shaking Saddams hand.

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Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a *****?

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited April 28, 2004).]

........ Seriously. Did you even read the link?


-Fox

The enemy of my enemy is my friend...



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"This thread is still alive? Someone should kill it."

Yes firefox I did, and god forbid Rumsfeld tried not to blame or piss off Saddam during his personal meetings or in subsequent statements when Iraq was at war with Iran and Iraq was the better alternative at the time.

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Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a *****?

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited April 28, 2004).]

And?



.... Apparently you didn't read the article, particularly where it states that Saddam was committing atrocities against his people before and while he was meeting with Rumsfeld. Not to mention Halliburton's dealings with Iraq in 1998 after the UN sanctions, which the Bush Administration claims was part of its justification for its military action.

You realize that without those laws, the world population would explode, right?


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All the prism in the world couldn't make hue.

poop

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Saberopus: omfq musical genuis j00 >mozart
Thrawn42689: Mozart = n00b

Um, the Kurds were allied with the Iranians and they were fighting together against the Baathists, why on earth would the Iranians gas the Kurds?

Furthermore, high-ranking Iraqi officials, including I beleive the Vice-President, have since confirmed that they were carrying out ethnic cleansing of the Kurds during the Iran-Iraq war, which included the use of chemical weapons against them.

The bigger missconception over the gassings is that Saddam was gassing 'his own people'. The Kurds are as much Saddam's 'own people' as Chechens are Russian - they might happen to fall under the same government, but that's about where the similarities end. The Kurds have fought ethnic battles for hundreds of years (including against the Baathists) in futile attempts to establish their own homeland.

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The Massassi-Map
There is no spoon.

[This message has been edited by Spork (edited April 28, 2004).]

It was the Cold War. America considered Iran the more dangerous enemy at the time. That's how foreign policy works.


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"This thread is still alive? Someone should kill it."

did you even read my post, firefox?

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"I was driving along listening to the radio, when Judas Priest comes on. It was 'You've got another thing coming.' All of a sudden, I enter 'VICE CITY RAMAGE MODE' and nearly ran some guy over"
- ]-[ellequin

Well then it was a legitimate attack on a military offense..

A gas attack on civilians? Sure it was.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

That is, until, he started an eight-year war against his neighbor to the east. Like the Iranians, he found it easier to send his young men to die in chemical and human wave attacks than to educate and employ them. Also, you might want to reexamine your argument if the best thing you can compare Iraq to is Saudi Arabia.

Women definitely had equal rights. Iraq was very egalitarian - all dissidents, male or female, were executed free of charge.



Tell that to the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, Estona, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Thailand, Turkey, Venezuela, Argentina, Brazil, Ecuador, Paraguay, Uruguay, Chile, Peru, Columbia, Panama, Nicaragua, Mexico, South Africa, Nigeria and the rest of the developing democratic world. Or avoid carpal tunnel and don't.



Comparing Iraq to China because it is located on the same continent is absurdly stupid. Chinese and Iraqi culture are not derived from the same source, any more than Confucius and Muhammad were the same man. China and its Communist neighbors, in any case, are something of an exception in East Asia. Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand are all democracies. Cambodia just recently held its first (imperfect) election in a very long time.

But all that is beside the point. Defining democracy, the right to choose your ruler - not least in the face of intellectuals all across the Muslim and Arab world who brave unspeakable horror to demand it - as the province of any one group of people is despicable, and flatly racist.

You are both.