I can hear you guys even here in Colorado going,
"But Stinky, you've been playing WoW since god knows when, and you've toted EQ2 as being the crappiest game ever!"
Yes, I know I've made several of those comments.
I am completley full of ****.
EQ2 is pretty close to being the best MMORPG ever.
And let me tell you why.


EQ2 has that perfect blend of grouping and solo play.
When I first started playing it, I thought it was going to suck, be completley group from about level 8 up.
When I was level 11, I was going "Ok, maybe grouping will start to kick in now."
But it didn't.
I made a group, and went out.
The XP was good, and at this time it was when I realised, that EQ2 wasn't about always grouping, it was about having that perfect mix of both, instead of just pure grouping, or solo play.
The people that say it is all grouping, have never, ever played EQ2 and are fanboys.


The sound is completley amazing.
Seriously, WoW has maybe 8 tracks of music for god knows how many zones it has.
EQ2, every zone, it is always a new track.
Always.
The Dungeons music is pretty good, the actual sounds are pretty good, I love it.

What surprised me the most, was when I asked for help in the /ooc channel, I wasn't met with "L0lZ N3WBZ0RS!"
I was actually helped!
One person came personally to show me.
EQ2 actually has a community, compared to WoW.
When you make groups, you make friends.
When you make groups in WoW, it's always for an instanced dungeon, and you probably never, ever see them again.
Ever.
I haven't seen the first four people I did Deadmines with since... well I did Deadmines!
In EQ2, you actually feel like you are a part of the community.

EQ2 for me, is pretty damn good.
But does this mean I will stop playing WoW?
No.
Far From it.
I will play both, and enjoy both.
I don't see why people cant enjoy both games, there are both great games!

Make sure to stop by eq2interface.com and get some UI mods; they can make EQ2 immensely more enjoyable. Take a look at the EQ2MAP project if you're not against having to explore everything on your own (also the project lead is me so I just had to plug it :D).

It was nice to hear a patient comparison from someone who doesn't seem to be a fanboy of either game. I'm an EQ2 fanboy so can't be trusted on anything I say about WoW.

Personally, I don't really enjoy the combat system in EQ2, it feels too robotic to me. I do however love the community, UI modding, tradeskilling system and environment (and engine and graphics), but if I want enjoyable combat I fire up EQ1. That's opinion though as most my friends enjoy EQ2's combat system over EQ1's by a lot.

QM

EQ2 changes far too violently all the time for my tastes.

I tried EQ2 for a while and the constant zoning drove me batty. When I first heard about "zoning" I figured it would be no big deal, every so often you'd load, right? Wrong. Every 3 blocks in the city you have to zone, and it takes FOREVER. Drive me absolutely nuts.

The main difference between EQ and other MMORPG's is that people who play EQ usually tend to roleplay more, in my personal experiance anyways.

World of Warcraft is the best game that I've ever played, and this is coming from someone who was a huge fan of both EverQuest and Dark Age of Camelot. I'm downloading the EQ2 Trial of the Isle and will give it a shot, but I must admit I'm skeptical. Will EQ2 ever feature a decent PvP system? To me, PvP is 60% of the game. The Battleground patch for WoW has me drooling. Without a great PvP system, an MMORPG will get old quick.

I must also add that my experiences in WoW have all been positive, and I have rarely run into anyone like Stinky describes. I've been making friends in the game since it first came out, and the community is great.

My EQ2 DL is almost done, so I'll post my feelings after I've played it. Why do all of the screenshots look like claymation?

Same as Mentat. Never had a problem with n00b comments or people not helping, I've ALWAYS had help. And the friends thing, do you expect to have like, 6000 friends? I know about 10 people I stay in contact with and I have played with many, many more. (Only been playing 2 weeks, level 28 Human Warlock Normal Server "Uldum")

Screenshots don't do EQ2's engine justice. The game is definately a next generation engine, up there with HL2 and Doom3. My favorite part is how the mouse moves independently of framerate, so the mouse movement is never jerky.

There is a LOT of zoning inside the two big cities, but out in the field, zoning doesn't happen much and framerates are considerably better.

I totally disagree with you MentatMM, about PvP I mean. Personally, I don't want PvP to even exist in a consenual form in a MMORPG. PvP belongs in FPS games and RTS, in RPGs there will never be proper balance for it to be enjoyable (in my opinion).

Take the Trial of the Isle with a grain of salt. I hate the newbie island and think SOE was stupid to make it the only area allowed in the trial.

Nothing against you drizzt2k2, but that you're level 28 in 2 weeks in a new game means the game is too easy. You're half way to max level in half a month... =P EQ1's level 65 to 70 grind was the perfect difficulty to weed out the non-dedicated.

QM

Everything that EQ2 has going for it FFXI has had for a long while now...

Good music (Music for each area)
Good (albiet not GREAT, but good) graphics
Interesting battle system
PvP via Battalia areas. (Only certain places are designated battlegrounds, and you have to tell an NPC to get in the fight. But you also get to compete.)
High difficulty, with most of the noobs being lost around level 20.
Grouping is about the only aggarvating for FFXI. You HAVE to group to get good experience.
Awesome community (once you get out of the pre-lvl 20 part, where all the idiots hang out at Valkrum Dunes and complain.)
Good loading times. Loads are few and far between, commonly 5 minutes by chocobo (2x running speed). And the loads are usually about 5 seconds long, as long as your computer isn't terribly bad.

Nah, just had friends help me with a few harder quests and I play 6 hours a day.:)

Man, I LOVED DaoC. Easily the best MMORPG I've ever played to this day.

I suppose I should retract that statement. I PL'd a friend from 1 to 20 in about 3 or 4 hours in EQ1 and from 20 to 30 in about 8 more... forgot about that...

That being said, 6 hours a day is half of a hardcore MMOG player. On a character I created Aug 19 1999, I have 422 days, 6 hours logged, at least half of which I was actually at the keyboard. Let's say I spent 300 of those days actually at the keyboard, that's averaged to about 8 hours a day I think. And I didn't play everyday, so the days I played were probably closer to 10 hour sessions. 8 hours of school, 10 hours of EQ left 6 hours of sleep which is what my standard amount of sleep is... yikes... glad I stopped playing so much.

Now I play a mix of EQ1, EQ2 and PlanetSide for maybe 2 hours, just picking and choosing which I feel like on any given day.

QM

That's why there's RPG servers in WoW :p

And Mentat--I've heard the PvP sucks, but everything else is kickin'...which is what makes me not even want to try EQ. Besides that *insert baby "FOR THE HORDE" picture here*

In my opinion, MMORPGs are the ideal arena for PvP. Have you ever played DAoC? While one could argue that there were balance issues with various classes, it featured a fully functional RvR system that was a blast to play. I hear Lineage II and Shadowbane are quite good in the PvP arena as well. What good is it to reach the upper levels in games like EQ/EQ2 when you can't even go to battle to prove yourself? Their answer is always to create another expansion with half-*** content, where you can level up even higher. Sounds rather boring to me. I think I understand why you don't want a PvP system in EQ2, but sadly, the players do (which is one of the many reasons WoW is more popular), and games that don't feature it are destined to become stale, like EQ did after the first few expansions. You should give WoW's Battlegrounds a shot when it comes out and see if you still feel the same way. I'm guessing that if you keep an open mind, you'll agree that it's quite fun, and does indeed have a place in MMORPGs.

War exists in the realm of fantasy, and to ignore that aspect, is to ignore the fans, IMO.



Dedicated to what? Leveling? How about being dedicated to having fun? The leveling grind is one of the elements that has traditionally ruined gameplay in MMORPGs. Games like EQ simply discourage those of us who have lives. Just because I work full-time, do an internship, go to school, and have tons of hobbies and a girlfriend doesn't mean that I'm not a hardcore player when I actually have time to play. That's the point. Hardcore should have little to do with the amount of time you play, and more to do with what you do with the time that you have. In WoW, I can hop in and if I don't have time for a good quest, I can head out and do some PvP. This is one of the areas where Guild Wars has it right (making the game more skill-based). The genre (MMORPG) is insignificant. Developers are beginning to transcend this genre, and that's a good thing. BTW, there's nothing more "hardcore" than a huge *** PvP battle.



To me, WoW is an extension to the ideas behind DAoC. RvR was a blast, and Battlegrounds really sounds like it's going to move forward where DAoC left off. I bought the Catacombs expansion the other day, in hopes that I could have more fun with DAoC, but it was rather stale, and to me, that game is dead. Anyone still playing EQ and DAoC with games like EQ2 and WoW, are either on crappy systems, or they've just spent too much time with the game to part. This is one of the biggest problems with those idiotic leveling grinds. People spend their entire lives inside of a video game to level a character, when they could just play something like WoW, have a blast with some hardcore gameplay, and still have a life. I must admit, DAoC is my favorite next to WoW. It took the stale gameplay of EQ and added RvR to it, and was an instant classic.



I DLed the trial but haven't had the time to give it a whirl yet (studying for finals), but without PvP, it better have some virtual whorehouses or something to keep me interested.

CM beat me to the obligatory "woo FFXI" post.

A lot of people can only afford one subscription at a time, forcing them to choose one game. Then they have to validate that choice so they don't feel like they made a mistake. Unfortunately it seems a lot of players choose to validate their choice by pointing out the cons in games they didn't choose, rather than the pros in the one(s) they did.

Beyond that there starts to develop a time investment - something even more difficult to justify than the initial choice. A whim has less weight than 3+ years of dedication. So, assuming they don't become disillusioned first, players tend to become increasingly devoted, and increasingly xenophobic.

This is all IMO of course (can I speak earnestly about something that isn't IMO? I'm not God). I've played (been addicted to) MMOs since 1998, and have all kinds of half-baked social theories on these things. I haven't tried out EQ2 yet, but school has been really busy this semester.

This is mostly in reply to MentatMM however, anytime I say "you" I'm not speaking to or at MentatMM specifically necessarily. I'd argue that the numbers don't agree with you that most people want PvP (in English speaking countries anyway). This does depend on what percent of players you consider to be "most," I consider most to mean "nearly everyone" and not just a simple majority. Many do want PvP, but to alienate the PvE only crowd is just as backwards as alienating the PvPers.

In EQ1's prime, it had about 400k subscribers. There were 4 PvP servers and something like 30 non-PvP. At the time a bunch of MMOGs that included a much stronger PvP environment had been out for a bit; DAoC and SWG had 200k subscribers, as did FFXI, UO and Ragnarok Online. This ignores Lineage and the new Lineage 2 as they were controlling the asian market and were millions of customers above the american MMOG market. So the PvPers have majority, but except for UO, were playing the games with faster turnover of subscriptions. I'd propose that they were getting bored. =P PvP might be fun, but it won't provide you with a long-term enjoyment, just a spur of the moment sorta thing, like when you shoot that rat ******* that's been camping with an AWP. MMORPGs should be about bringing a lot of people together to accomplish some fantastic goal (slaying a dragon perhaps) and not have to worry about rival guild X storming in and slaughtering you while you're trying to hide behind a pillar so that dragon's fire breath doesn't hit you.

I hope EQ2 never adds PvP and that WoW becomes the dominant PvP MMORPG (though since WoW expanded to the asian market, it's fair game to compare it to Lineage 1 and 2 which are royally kicking its butt; EQ2 is planning to expand to the asian market as well which will only make EQ2's numbers more pathetic, stupid SOE =P). I can understand people like PvP, that's why I play a skill based PvP MMOG called PlanetSide, but in a random number environment that is the MMORPG, if player X is higher level/better PvP class/better gear, you lose, and it's time playing that determined that. The only time I PvP'd in EQ1 was with some RL friends as they leveled up to me to gauge their progress.

As for "Dedicated to what? Leveling?" Yes. A MMOG is a time investment, the whole concept is that you have a long term entertainment product that will provide new content for a very long time. If you reach the top level and have seen EVERYTHING then the MMOG isn't providing what it should. In 6 years of EQ1 I've seen about 70% of the universe, am max level but not max AA. EQ1 still has over 30% of it's content that I haven't enjoyed. That's pretty dang good. If you want conventional "play for an hour" gameplay, get a traditional game and start using AOL's chatroom; you'll get most of what you're after.

That was fun, enjoy.

Quib

EQ hit half a million just before the UK release.

That's what I thought too, but http://www.mmogchart.com/ doesn't show EQ1 as making it to 500k so I rounded down.

QM

I was under the impression that Lineage II has more players than both WoW and EQ2. I could be wrong, so correct me if I am. When I say "most", I'm referring to everyone in the world. In doing a little research, I must admit that I am quite suprised at how well EQ2 is actually doing. Maybe this is the majority of the veteran EQ crowd that has never experienced the wonders of PvP?



PvP nor WoW in any way alienate the PvE crowd. You can play PvE in WoW without ever participating in PvP, as long as you stay out of the contested territories (you could also avoid RvR in DAoC by staying out of the frontier), and the experience is still quite positive. I play both PvE and PvP (as do most people in WoW), which is why I enjoy WoW. If any game is alienating anyone, it's EQ2. WoW offers a great experience for both types of players.



You seem to be under the false impression that games such as DAoC only offer PvP. DAoC offered a PvE experience that many would argue was superior to that of EQ. DAoC had everything EQ had and much more. As to why anyone would stick with EQ after the release of DAoC, I can only guess that they were too comfortable and had committed too much time to a lesser game (similar to why people still pay $15 to play DAoC even though superior games have been released and are the same price). I have a friend who still swears that DAoC is better than WoW. I call it denial. I guess it's just hard to leave a game when you have +20 high level characters.



That's because the "random number environment" is the social gamers answer to skill. However, there can be a balance, obviously, as we're seeing that in both WoW and GWs. WoW PvP does indeed involve quite a bit of skill. Battlegrounds is going to show sketpical PvEers that PvP can be both random and skill-based. As to the higher level with the best gear/class winning, that's why you have 3-4 of your closest friends hiding behind a tree to take his *** out.



Tell that to the DAoC, Lineage II, and Shadowbane players that have been PvPing for all these years. In DAoC, most of the PvPers were very much into PvE and PvP. RvR offered something for PvPers to do instead of the stale old leveling grind that DAoC took from EQ, and WoW's Battlegrounds is offering 10x that.



As you may have noticed, that's quicky changing. The more and more PvEers that experience PvP, the more players that will be demanding it in future games. There's nothing wrong with time investment, but when you force someone to spend half of their life playing a video game, your strategy is inherently flawed. MMORPGers are by nature social gamers. There isn't traditionally anything "hardcore" about playing MMORPGs besides the ridiculous amount of time that one must spend playing one to acheive anything. People are slowly beginning to realize that there is a world outside of these games, and that they'd like to be a part of it. Thus, games such as WoW, where you don't have to live in a video game, attached to a feeding tube and catheter to be successful will become even more and more popular.



I don't see how you can continue to argue a point that has been proven wrong by the existence of WoW.