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Intelligent Design
2005-09-11, 3:43 PM #1
I am currently scouring the internet for information on Intelligent Design, and it is driving me crazy. Almost everything is extremely biased, whether for or against, and there is very little information as to what it actually is and the theories it uses.

I won't summarize my full knowledge on the subject, or lack thereof, but I will say that I know it involves an intelligent designer (whether God, aliens, etc.) who created the universe, whether through evolution, the Genesis account, alien seeds, etc.

But what else does this "theory" stand for, and how does it tie in with evolution and creationism? Please keep the bias to minimum. I'd just like to hear what any of you guys know about it! :)
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2005-09-11, 3:47 PM #2
...and it begins...
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
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2005-09-11, 3:52 PM #3
It stands for striking down the heathen masses who would have us believe that we were related to chimps. It is the last safehouse for Christians.

Or you simply read about it here.
the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot - LC Tusken
2005-09-11, 3:52 PM #4
Natural Theology by William Paley.
Detty. Professional Expert.
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2005-09-11, 3:52 PM #5
Originally posted by Mort-Hog:
...and it begins...

*sigh*

This is not what I'm looking for. I'm sure you of all people on Massassi have a fair bit to contribute, but this is no such example. I'm not here to debate, I'm here to *hopefully* learn a bit more about this theory. Has anyone read Darwin's Black Box? If so, tell me about it.

If you had to give ID main tenets, what would they be?

Just saying "And it begins" will become a self-fulfilling prophecy if that's the mindset that you have.
My JK Level Design | 2005 JK Hub Level Pack (Plexus) | Massassi Levels
2005-09-11, 3:54 PM #6
"Intelligent Design is a bunch of stuff made by people who don't actually understand Evolution yet still try to argue against it"
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2005-09-11, 4:05 PM #7
Originally posted by Wolfy:
It stands for striking down the heathen masses who would have us believe that we were related to chimps. It is the last safehouse for Christians.



Originally posted by Detty:
"Intelligent Design is a bunch of stuff made by people who don't actually understand Evolution yet still try to argue against it"


Q.F.F.T.

Thread over.
Stuff
2005-09-11, 4:25 PM #8
Originally posted by Wolfy:
Or you simply read about it here.


I can't seem to find a source any better than this.
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2005-09-11, 4:37 PM #9
Intelligent Design does not hold up under any kind of scientific scrutiny. It's an attempt to justify religion scientifically in order to get it into science classes.

Personally I think that if you feel the need to prove your religion through scientific means then you're missing the point of religion entirely.
2005-09-11, 4:44 PM #10
There's also this small tidbit.
the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot - LC Tusken
2005-09-11, 4:47 PM #11
Although not specifically related to ID, they do mention ID:
Institute for Creation Research
Answers in Genesis

:)
2005-09-11, 6:13 PM #12
here
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2005-09-11, 9:38 PM #13
Originally posted by Wolfy:
It stands for striking down the heathen masses who would have us believe that we were related to chimps. It is the last safehouse for Christians.

Or you simply read about it here.


I'm sick of you people knocking Christians.
2005-09-11, 9:41 PM #14
Originally posted by -Monoxide-:
I'm sick of you people knocking Christians.


Don't worry, he's talking about the fundies. :p I think we can all agree that there are plenty of cool christians.

If that didn't come off as creepy, I don't know what will.

P.S. I GIS-ed "Dogsrool" and found a forum with a crazy guy in it.
2005-09-11, 10:46 PM #15
Originally posted by -Monoxide-:
I'm sick of you people knocking Christians.


Wolfy is a Christian, genius. So... 'you people' is referring to who exactly... Christians? ahahahahahahahaha

Also, ID == creationism.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-09-11, 10:55 PM #16
Originally posted by Freelancer:
Also, ID == creationism.


Bull. ID is only about the world being intelligently designed, you can attach any creator you want and it still falls into ID. The idea that aliens manipulated chimp DNA to make us is technically ID. All it really does is muddy the waters even more.
*This post has been edited for content.
2005-09-11, 11:03 PM #17
Originally posted by scelestus:
Bull. ID is only about the world being intelligently designed, you can attach any creator you want and it still falls into ID. The idea that aliens manipulated chimp DNA to make us is technically ID. All it really does is muddy the waters even more.


Exactly, thus the Flying Spaghetti Monster being a very legitimate creator.

And I just got futureposted by FG.
Marsz, marsz, Dąbrowski,
Z ziemi włoskiej do Polski,
Za twoim przewodem
Złączym się z narodem.
2005-09-11, 11:45 PM #18
Originally posted by scelestus:
Bull.


Bull.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-09-11, 11:47 PM #19
[url]www.idthefuture.com[/url]
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2005-09-11, 11:52 PM #20
Quote:
Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible – the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark – convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.


Intelligent Design is just a different name for creationism - since creationism was banned from being taught in schools, and rightly so, its proponents needed to come up with a new name.

Important to know is that ID offers no theory. What they say is 'life is so complicated it has to be designed'. Which is not only false - how can you label life so complicated it has to be designed, and at the same time think the hurricane Katrina is just a natural phenomenon?

Read the Wedge strategy to know who these people really are.
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2005-09-12, 12:01 AM #21
Well, if you want a good source of Creationism, you can always go to the link in my signature.
The cake is a lie... THE CAKE IS A LIE!!!!!
2005-09-12, 12:10 AM #22
Silly fundies. God is for Kids.

I am in the future!

Wweeeee
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2005-09-12, 12:50 AM #23
Originally posted by Thrawn42689:
Personally I think that if you feel the need to prove your religion through scientific means then you're missing the point of religion entirely.


I couldn't have said that better myself.
Pissed Off?
2005-09-12, 2:02 AM #24
One slightly interesting point that ID does offer over Creationism is that the 'higher power' could be extraterrestrial. This does require the extraterrestrial civiliation to have actively 'designed' us (so cannot coincide with one of the theories of origins of life on Earth, that bacteria was carried on a comet), but it does mean that our 'designers' aren't supernatural and that we can, at some point, meet them.
I'm guessing this is pissing all over all religion and all science ever, but it's an interesting break from good ol' creationism.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2005-09-12, 2:54 AM #25
Or that it had to be thrown in there to keep it from being Creationism.
Pissed Off?
2005-09-12, 4:23 AM #26
Well, ID tends to focus on a different set of fallacies to Creationism.

ID's central fallacy is "If evolution is wrong, ID is right" (I think this is a false dilemma? Anyway, it's quite wrong). Even if evolution is wrong, this says nothing about a 'creator', intelligent or otherwise, as it is just as likely to be some unknown 'third' mechanism.
And ID makes so many a priori assumptions that by Occam's Razor it must be rejected in favour of something that explains the same with less entities (assuming Occam's Razor is applicable here? I'm not entirely sure that it is..)

Not that any of this means anything, because ID proponents always stick to 'irreducible complexity', from which they haven't gotten anywhere because it's largely begging the question.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2005-09-12, 5:34 AM #27
In other news, Intelligent Design has been proven to exist.
Stuff
2005-09-12, 9:23 AM #28
Quote:
Personally I think that if you feel the need to prove your religion through scientific means then you're missing the point of religion entirely.


Then please do tell, what is the point?
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-09-12, 9:32 AM #29
Faith
$do || ! $do ; try
try: command not found
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2005-09-12, 9:34 AM #30
Instead of making some FGR pointouts, I will point out this thread will end in flames.
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2005-09-12, 9:52 AM #31
Darkjedibob, you're not getting off the hook that easily. I asked what the point of religion was. You said faith. Now I'm going to ask you what the point of faith is.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-09-12, 10:22 AM #32
Freelancer, religion exists to provide moral guidelines for society and the individual, to explain the mechanics of the world, and to provide answers to questions like "why are we here?" Belief in those guidelines, explanations, and answers is faith.
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2005-09-12, 10:29 AM #33
[QUOTE=Kieran Horn]Freelancer, religion exists ... to explain the mechanics of the world, and to provide answers to questions like "why are we here?"[/QUOTE]

You're supposed to be telling me the point of religion. That's the point of science. Sure, both attempt to answer some of the same questions, but surely religion must provide something that science doesn't, or so many people wouldn't be content with only science or only religion.

As for morals, sure, religion is one route, but there are certainly other ways to obtain morals.

In other words: the mechanics of the world can be explained without religion, where we came from/why we are here can be explained without religion, and morals can be formulated without religion. So what is it that religion provides exclusively?
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2005-09-12, 10:41 AM #34
Originally posted by Freelancer:
You're supposed to be telling me the point of religion. That's the point of science. Sure, both attempt to answer some of the same questions, but surely religion must provide something that science doesn't, or so many people wouldn't be content with only science or only religion.

As for morals, sure, religion is one route, but there are certainly other ways to obtain morals.

In other words: the mechanics of the world can be explained without religion, where we came from/why we are here can be explained without religion, and morals can be formulated without religion. So what is it that religion provides exclusively?


I think you're confusing the question of why we're here with the question of how we got here.
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2005-09-12, 10:50 AM #35
Quote:
You're supposed to be telling me the point of religion. That's the point of science. Sure, both attempt to answer some of the same questions, but surely religion must provide something that science doesn't, or so many people wouldn't be content with only science or only religion.
The point of science and religion is the exact same. To explain and answer. The thing religion provides that science doesn't in this context is definite answers. Science is always a constant search for answers, whereas religion says "Alright, here you go. Live with it."

Quote:
As for morals, sure, religion is one route, but there are certainly other ways to obtain morals.
But there is no way as powerful as religion. Things like Heaven and Hell are methods to control a society and prevent anarchy from destroying it.

Quote:
In other words: the mechanics of the world can be explained without religion, where we came from/why we are here can be explained without religion, and morals can be formulated without religion. So what is it that religion provides exclusively?
All those things can be explained without science too and with just religion. Now, in order to believe what religion tells a person on those things, that requires faith.
Democracy: rule by the stupid
2005-09-12, 11:07 AM #36
Quote:

As for morals, sure, religion is one route, but there are certainly other ways to obtain morals.


Yeah, meaningless morals. Yay.
2005-09-12, 11:13 AM #37
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Yeah, meaningless morals. Yay.


What?
Warhead[97]
2005-09-12, 11:14 AM #38
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Yeah, meaningless morals. Yay.


Sadly, we do have a monopoly on Real Morals.
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2005-09-12, 11:15 AM #39
[QUOTE=Kieran Horn]
But there is no way as powerful as religion. Things like Heaven and Hell are methods to control a society and prevent anarchy from destroying it.
[/QUOTE]


Umm no, Gods/religion doesn't matter much when it comes to morals....

Some of the most religious areas of the world are the most violent, and some of the least religious areas tend to have much lesser crime rates..
2005-09-12, 12:17 PM #40
It's true... when's the last time you saw atheists start a war?
Stuff
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