http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/12/24/MNGBOGD4GF1.DTL

Well that was some rather disappointing news for stem cell supporters. Pretty much any huge discoveries are fake...

Well that's not good.

I'm guess that activists against stem cells will be using this?

Hey, how did you get from the article to that?

man thats nuts... i think the thing i found most disturbing about this entire article (other than the huge setbacks in what has the potential to be a hugely promising field) was this quote



the arrogance is astounding... granted this a rather large debacle, but im sure british, or german, or any number of other countries scientists could do just as well as american,

NEVER

alright, alright, ill admit we are the best... but seriously though!

that blatant untruth you just quoted really grinds my gears.

considering a huge chunk of the research conducted in america is done by foreigners, what mr. tipton just said is a pathetic fallacy that is steeped in both chauvinism and xenophobia.

but can you expect more from an american? just kidding.

He is right about the research forced into private sector being rife with corruption and generally bad science, though.

If I ever want to do fundamental research, I'd want to do it in the US.

We are still arguing about pseudo-science topics.

I knew stem cells wouldn't work.

Who says they won't ever work?

I didn't think they were going to happen, and this proves that so far they don't.

I don't understand what you mean by 'work'

they're all bums who mooch off their parents

Stem cells have not been proven to work, and California wasted millions funding this project, and it looks like it won't become a reality.

Lol cow



But what do you mean by 'work'?

When I say 'work' I mean that they currently cannot help the state of health of the world.

Damn, I wish I would have known this, I could have just ignored studying the stem cells that are in the human body that repair tissue constantly...

wait so all those things i've seen on them growing an ear on a mouse and making organs that could be interchanged with say a failing organ is false?? like wtf are they doing making organs with play-do?

the ear mouse thing happened way before stem cell research, iirc

Genes are way cooler than stem cells anyways

it is my understanding that america does very little research unless there's the potential for huge private sector returns. just look at the pharmaceutical, oil and mineral industries. yeah, yeah... i know... america gives lots of money to countries and people that need it, but when it comes right down to it it's a drop in the ocean.

it has also been studied and very well documented that american companies search far and wide for the most talented people on earth in their given fields, then they lure them to america with large salaries and a better life for their families. then we become concerned with countries not so fortunate as ours not having the talent to further their own economies and place on the world stage in many different areas of technology and research.
we take their scientists and then wonder why they fall behind. :/

[QUOTE=Darth Evad]it is my understanding that america does very little research unless there's the potential for huge private sector returns. just look at the pharmaceutical, oil and mineral industries. yeah, yeah... i know... america gives lots of money to countries and people that need it, but when it comes right down to it it's a drop in the ocean.[/QUOTE]
Not like we have people working on Cancer, AIDS, other crippling but not so deadly diseases, not to mention we HAD a lot of researchers on stem cells, still do have some, but that'll only last so long because of the nature of it. And it's not a drop in the ocean to the starving people whom we give food to, nor the empoverished nations that we help out.

[Quote=Darth Evad]it has also been studied and very well documented that american companies search far and wide for the most talented people on earth in their given fields, then they lure them to america with large salaries and a better life for their families. then we become concerned with countries not so fortunate as ours not having the talent to further their own economies and place on the world stage in many different areas of technology and research.
we take their scientists and then wonder why they fall behind. :/[/QUOTE]
Something tells me the level of the scientific field isn't so important as having:
1) A government that, you know, doesn't suck and encourages a good economy
2) A good, strong basis for the economy (we had to build ours off of England, ffs)
3) Greed*

Honestly, it's not that big of a deal that we steal scientists from other nations. And I doubt it's all THAT prevalent since moderately successful nations like South Korea, Japan, and Britain (okay, more than moderately successful) seem to have more than enough scientists to get along just fine.




*just my own outlook on how thriving economies work, take it as you like it.

look in a denny's dumpster. the amount of food consumed and/or thrown out by americans and canadians far far outweighs the amount of food we send to starving people around the world. just look at the size of the guts of people walking out of walmart.
at >$300,000,000,000 for an anual military budget, the amount of money given to other needy nations is squat in comparison. a drop in the ocean.
with pharmaceutical companies denying diseased nations drugs that would actually help them due to patent claims and rights (and a straight up confession that they don't want to help because they might not make >$1,000,000,000/fiscal quarter and that would make their shareholders unhappy), it's all about cash. who cares if people are sick.

just my outlook on it. i don't like it but there's nothing anyone can do about it. :/

[QUOTE=Darth Evad]look in a denny's dumpster. the amount of food consumed and/or thrown out by americans and canadians far far outweighs the amount of food we send to starving people around the world. just look at the size of the guts of people walking out of walmart.[/quote]
So? That's our prerogative. We earn the money, we can do what we want with it. We are not OBLIGATED to give anyone anything--it's great that those who do give tend to give a lot (Gates, charities, the government aid), but just because I can't finish my pancakes doesn't mean that America is a horrible society that never gives.
[QUOTE=Darth Evad]at >$300,000,000,000 for an anual military budget, the amount of money given to other needy nations is squat in comparison. a drop in the ocean.[/QUOTE]
Please, back this up with proof (that the 300 billion is less than what's given overall). Between charities, the government, and private donations I'd say we give quite a bit, enough to at least rival that (I'd guess around 30 billion at the least, which is still a humongous amount). Once again, we are not OBLIGATED to give anything, and what we do give helps. Christ.
[QUOTE=Darth Evad]with pharmaceutical companies denying diseased nations drugs that would actually help them due to patent claims and rights (and a straight up confession that they don't want to help because they might not make >$1,000,000,000/fiscal quarter and that would make their shareholders unhappy), it's all about cash. who cares if people are sick.

just my outlook on it. i don't like it but there's nothing anyone can do about it. :/[/QUOTE]
They're in business to make money. Let me put it this way to you--if they don't make money, then they go under. Then no one gets medicine. Please, tell me how them giving everything they have for a year or two, going under, then there being a supreme shortage of meds around the world would help ANYONE much less the empoverished countries.

[QUOTE=Darth Evad]
at >$300,000,000,000 for an anual military budget, the amount of money given to other needy nations is squat in comparison. a drop in the ocean.

[/QUOTE]



Umm duh. That budget is kind of importent. The government should not be giving charity anyway, that's our job.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]So? That's our prerogative. We earn the money, we can do what we want with it. We are not OBLIGATED to give anyone anything--it's great that those who do give tend to give a lot (Gates, charities, the government aid), but just because I can't finish my pancakes doesn't mean that America is a horrible society that never gives.
[/QUOTE]

Sooooooooooooooo true. And Yoshi, that thing about greed, also true. You know your econ

Evad, you do realize what happens if America decides to send millions of dollars of aid to places in Africa, absoulty none of it reaches the children or the poor families. You are basically just giving their corrupt dictatorial governments a check for millions of dollars to do with as they please.

steady everyone. i'm just responding to the quote,

i'm just saying that america doesn't do anything unless there's significant economical and financial return. even if it means the lives of their own people. i don't think i need to post any kind of back-up to prove that.
also, there's the fact that america has just as many corrupt greedy liars as any other country on earth (i would guess there's actually more because the system feeds the greed).

i don't care if america stops giving money to anyone. it's none of my business. i would actually like to see them start spending money at home. (the only time i'll pipe and say something about it is when a little debate starts here where i have to take the side of 'america doesn't do enough with what it has available to it')
i know the money goes to corrupt dictators. clinton and bush sr. and jr. all gave tens of millions per year to the taliban even though every one on earth knew they were killing women in the soccer stadium for showing their skin. so many that they couldn't even play soccer anymore. that money would've been best spent at home.

my previous remarks are just how i see it, as i stated above. i just find it starnge that $1B US is worth more than 1 million lives somewhere else. it's why i'll never be rich. :/

[QUOTE=Darth Evad]
i'm just saying that america doesn't do anything unless there's significant economical and financial return. even if it means the lives of their own people. i don't think i need to post any kind of back-up to prove that.
also, there's the fact that america has just as many corrupt greedy liars as any other country on earth (i would guess there's actually more because the system feeds the greed).
[/QUOTE]

Everything is always done with some self-interest or benefit in mind.

You act like greed is a bad thing. Greed is good. Maybe it gives an individual a bad light on them, but greed fuels the prosperity of other people.

[QUOTE=Darth Evad]steady everyone. i'm just responding to the quote,

i'm just saying that america doesn't do anything unless there's significant economical and financial return. even if it means the lives of their own people. i don't think i need to post any kind of back-up to prove that.
also, there's the fact that america has just as many corrupt greedy liars as any other country on earth (i would guess there's actually more because the system feeds the greed).

i don't care if america stops giving money to anyone. it's none of my business. i would actually like to see them start spending money at home. (the only time i'll pipe and say something about it is when a little debate starts here where i have to take the side of 'america doesn't do enough with what it has available to it')
i know the money goes to corrupt dictators. clinton and bush sr. and jr. all gave tens of millions per year to the taliban even though every one on earth knew they were killing women in the soccer stadium for showing their skin. so many that they couldn't even play soccer anymore. that money would've been best spent at home.

my previous remarks are just how i see it, as i stated above. i just find it starnge that $1B US is worth more than 1 million lives somewhere else. it's why i'll never be rich. :/[/QUOTE]

1) You're responding to the quote, but I already showed you you're wrong. There's still tons of money spent on AIDS, Cancer, and other such 'uncurable diseases' research. There's still billions worth of aid given out every year.

2) You misunderstand greed. I think you need to take a few econ classes--ever hear of the invisible hand theory? If you have, then realize that it works. Not completely, unfortunately, but for the most part, the more greed there is in a society the better off the society's economy and standard of living will end up. Hell, look at Hong Kong--easily one of the best economies out there, and it's because they have a completely open and free market basically. America doesn't have AS open a market anymore, and I think that, more than anything, is what's hurting our economy right now. But I digress, and there's probably factors that I don't know about affecting it.

3) Greedy people are people just like you and me. It doesn't make them less human, less passionate, less giving and forgiving. It just makes them realize that money IS worth something.

[QUOTE=Darth Evad]look in a denny's dumpster. the amount of food consumed and/or thrown out by americans and canadians far far outweighs the amount of food we send to starving people around the world. just look at the size of the guts of people walking out of walmart.[/QUOTE]Yeah, okay, I didn't want to respond to this thread but I hate this goddamn argument.

Here's a fun mental puzzle for you, Evad: How do you propose we get those leftover Denny's scraps to Southern Zomaicrastan? Consider why these people are starving to begin with: Their corner of the world is difficult to access or otherwise land-locked. There isn't a large enough native supply of food or clean water to begin with. Usually the area suffers from overpopulation. There is little or no infrastructure that could be used to distribute supplies.

We already have programs in place to distribute vitamin-enriched rice. The problem is getting those supplies to the people who need them. Undeveloped country? No roads to ship supplies. Add rough terrain? No place to land aircraft. Land-locked? Oh hey, no shipping routes.

Look at what happened right after World War 2: the Berlin Airlift. It took 278,228 flights to keep one half of Berlin supplied for 324 days. The supplies came from nearby nations (France and Britain). Are you seriously suggesting that we would be able to provide the rest of the world with American food indefinitely? Preposterous.

He's right, though, about the South Korean scientific community getting far less oversight than the American scientific community.

from now on if i reply to a post or topic like this instead of quoting and countering me, just remind me not to talk to you guys about this stuff. holy crap man...

of course i know the garbage from the dennys isn't going to go to timbucktoo (and before one of you feels the need to tell me that timbucktoo doesn't need our denny's garbage i just chose that as a place as so often is when someone refers to some other place out there somewhere that no one seems to know where it is. check the book on american slang first), and of course i know that when they find a cure for cancer not one person on this earth will be cured for free regardless of how much money they've donated to the research, and of course i know greed fuels the economy.

look at what i ****ing saying.
when the royal bank makes $978,000,000 profit in three months why do they send me a letter saying my bank fees are going up? pure ****ing greed with no other motivation than the president of the company's bonus for next fiscal year.
and before any of you take that so ****ing literally and start telling me canadian law doesn't let the president of a bank make all the decisions on bank fees without fist passing it through a board of directors and so on, look at what i'm ****ing saying. not what is literally written.
there's a serious ****ing problem when a company makes $1,000,000,000 profit in three months and feels it's necessary to increase my fees to offset costs in an industry where i have no say or choice.
as is the glutony of america (and canada (just so you don't think i'm bashing your poor country because when i bash mine no one seems to give a **** you just seem to notice when i bash yours even though we're both the ****ing same in 90% of our policies)). look at what i'm ****ing saying. quit reading what i'm writing and taking it so literally even when i say i'm just saying that's how i see it.
how much more of a ****ing disclaimer do you guys need?!?!?!?

[QUOTE=Darth Evad]from now on if i reply to a post or topic like this instead of quoting and countering me, just remind me not to talk to you guys about this stuff. holy crap man...

of course i know the garbage from the dennys isn't going to go to timbucktoo (and before one of you feels the need to tell me that timbucktoo doesn't need our denny's garbage i just chose that as a place as so often is when someone refers to some other place out there somewhere that no one seems to know where it is. check the book on american slang first), and of course i know that when they find a cure for cancer not one person on this earth will be cured for free regardless of how much money they've donated to the research, and of course i know greed fuels the economy.

look at what i ****ing saying.
when the royal bank makes $978,000,000 profit in three months why do they send me a letter saying my bank fees are going up? pure ****ing greed with no other motivation than the president of the company's bonus for next fiscal year.
and before any of you take that so ****ing literally and start telling me canadian law doesn't let the president of a bank make all the decisions on bank fees without fist passing it through a board of directors and so on, look at what i'm ****ing saying. not what is literally written.
there's a serious ****ing problem when a company makes $1,000,000,000 profit in three months and feels it's necessary to increase my fees to offset costs in an industry where i have no say or choice.
as is the glutony of america (and canada (just so you don't think i'm bashing your poor country because when i bash mine no one seems to give a **** you just seem to notice when i bash yours even though we're both the ****ing same in 90% of our policies)). look at what i'm ****ing saying. quit reading what i'm writing and taking it so literally even when i say i'm just saying that's how i see it.
how much more of a ****ing disclaimer do you guys need?!?!?!?[/QUOTE]

1) Jon`C's Canadian.

2) Maybe a disclaimer that says "Everything I say in this post is complete 100% utter bull****" would help next time.

[QUOTE=Darth Evad]look at what i ****ing saying.[/QUOTE]Well, I was half right - you didn't ignore my post, but you didn't bother to refute anything I said either.

[QUOTE=Darth Evad]quit reading what i'm writing and taking it so literally even when i say i'm just saying that's how i see it.[/QUOTE]Because what you're saying is more important than being correct, right?

I think what Evad is vaguely attempting to do is post a Marxist-style diatribe on the exploitation of the proletariat by the greedy bourgeoisie. A fair enough (and fundementally very important) point.
Then again, I don't think most of you lot (let alone evad) know nearly enough about Marxism to actually evaluate any such argument, so I don't imagine this conversation going anywhere fast.

What's the point of debating Marxism, it doesn't work. It supports centralized information, the fundamental reason why it doesn't work. There, end of story. None of this "oh, well in theory it's good". No, that's bullcrap. Centralized Information = BAD

Excellent way of simplifying and dismissing about 200 years of economic philosophy (and coincidentally thoroughly proving my post above)!

ok. i'm calm. this is only the second time in 5 years that i've been pissed off due to a forum thread.
dj yoshi tells me jon c' is canadian. hilarious. that he may be but once again you have failed to see what i am saying and read what i am literally typing. jon c' and i have discussed the problems with canadian politics for about 5 minutes here and 5 minutes later the thread fell off the page. no one here gives a crap about canada and it's politics. oh wait... i better state that literally so you won't come back with a 5 year old's reply. there are only about 10 canadians here and their involvement in canadian political threads doesn't match that of the involvment of the american ians involvment in american political threads.
so i thought it might be safe to say that 'no one' cares about canadian political threads the same way someone might say no one cares about JK anymore even though we know that there are still 14 poeple editing it which is about 5.6E-9% of the population. i guess that makes the statement 'no one' cares 100% bull****. give me a ****ing break.

all righty then.

there are ways of getting food into the mouths of the hungry world wide. but to do it efficiently and thouroughly it requires people to teach the hungry how to do it themselves with techniques and products that wouldn't make american companies very much money. therefor america, in general, doesn't care. that's a blatant fact! i don't have to post a link or back that up. there's 250 years of history to prove it.
people with big hearts are doing it now and what could take 15 years will take 30 'cause there's no money to be made.
just watch pbs, discovery or national geographic or google it yourself (try red cross for starters).

am i the only person here that thinks there's something wrong with a bank making a billion dollars in three months and they still feel the need to raise my fees to offset costs? and that's a puny little canadian bank. take a look at the profits for BofA in three months. maybe it's just me. or maybe i should let the americans here know that here in canada our choices are very limited as to how we do our banking.

am i the only person here that knows when they find a cure for cancer or aids or als that there will be no one cured in america unless they have lots of money, have updated their insurance because the insurance companies will be very quick to let you know your insurance doesn't cover 'cures' for those diseases, it only covers treatment. does anyone here actually think the money that america and americans so generously pour into medical research will benefit americans? we should all know by now that it will only benefit rich americans and all canadians.
all those volunteer hours and runs for the cure and donations made every time someone comes to the door with an envelope will get you nothing when you get sick with the disease.
look at that cuban doctor that thought he had the cure for diabetes. the world flocked to his lab to see what he was working on... oh wait... i mean the world minus america 'cause if there was a cure for diabetes found in cuba not one person in america would be allowed to be cured unless they were criminals and found there way there illegally with lots of money.

so i repeat,

go ahead and take the 3 minutes to google it yourself. look at how much america and it's corporations profit and compare it to how much is actually donated.
a drop in the ocean.

it's probably my fault. next time i'll spell it all out so you know what i'm saying.