Probably true, to a good extent.



Faith is not detrimental in every situation. Everyone I know who requires evidence and a knowledge of how something works in all situations (which they really don't, do you know how all the components of your car work? How about how that airplane is held together?) freezes up when they come up to something which requires blind faith. Sometimes you don't have time or means to learn all the details about everything and have to fly on faith. Only a balance will really work in reality.

Nobody believes in a random religion because of blind faith. Well, I guess someone could, but, that is not the point. People participate in a religion because it makes sense and sits well to them, but to believe it is the truth requires faith. That's the point, is that there is a final leap of faith.



I don't believe in my religion. It is usually true though that people believe because their parents raised them that way. I see nothing wrong with that.



You only say 'it was really either a hallucination or some kind of appeal to emotion' because that is what you believe. You have no more proof or evidence of the fallacy of any of this than they do of the truth. You have faith that you are correct, in addition to all of your deduction and observations.



I don't understand why you twist faith. Oh wait, yes I do, it's because it's easier to feel justified in your belief when you think everyone else is a bunch of loons, instead of simply telling them 'this is what I believe.'



So basically, you bash things without understanding them. How scientific of you.



Excommunication is when a persons name is removed from the church. This is something from many religions.

There was no intercourse under duress.



How is this different from Gold, who Jon seems to really hate, anyone? Jon is being willfully ignorant and hostile here. You blow off all of the arguments I have provided and proceed straight to cheap shopts and one liners. Ignorance at it's finest.

...sorry, that's just odd. Why do you claim it as your religion then?



I do. It is an indication that religion isn't about seeking truth. It's about something else. If it was about seeking truth, then the vast majority of people wouldn't have the same religion as their parents.



Well what can I say? Those top dawgs in many religions live a very comfortable life off the donations of their peons.

Because I am in that transition phase of not having believes in my Church and getting out of my household. I don't really believe it isn't true, so I guess there is still room for me to start believing, but I doubt it. It's as much a social thing as not though so for the time being, it is still my religion.




But they believe they already have found truth, so why seek it? That's the thing is if they have no reason to think truth is elsewhere, they aren't going to look.



Yeah. On the other hand in others they live a normal or lower life.

That's because they've been brainwashed by then.

If they'd learn that many, many other religions claim to be the true religion, then they'd realize that maybe they don't have the truth.

Nowhere does the Bible say God is the one who sends you to hell. If during your life you do not demonstrate you want to be with God, he simply will not recognize your soul anymore, according to the Bible. Furthermore, it says that hell was prepared for Satan and his angels, not for people.

Hell is a natural result of the complete absence of God's presence and law.


[There is, however, mention of God sending those into the Lake of Fire in revelation, when all choices people have made are finalized. I can't remember if the Lake of Fire is torturous or not, but Revelation calls it "the second death." Interpret that how you will.]

[also, I haven't read the rest of this thread because I don't want to tie myself into another debate. Sorry.]

But how do you account for people who realize that? Hmm? There are more than you think.

Because I'm sick of this and every other religious argument. It's redundant and stupid.

Gold tried to tie his religious beliefs to science. He was then presented with contradictory arguments. The second he refused to argue the contradictory evidence in a scientific manner is the same second this thread and every other religious thread turned into a ****pile.

In spite of my front on this board I'm ignorant of neither the LDS nor the WTS, and general theology and philosophy have been among my many hobbies since infancy. Believe me: I'm not resorting to crappy one-liners because I don't know better. I'm resorting to crappy one-liners because I don't value what you have to say.

Alright, I take back what I said before. You have a mind of your own, so you have my ear.

Take a look at exmormon.org , and take note of the sheer amount of people that still attend and pretend to be Mormon just so they won't piss of their mormon spouse and/or relatives.

Also, cognitive dissonance.

I just had a wonderful idea. We continue this disscussion casually without useing the word "God". It's like a flamewar without petroleum...

I've been there and really dislike it. It just seems to me that they don't believe and feel a little trodden upon, and so are extremely bitter.

I prefer the fairlds.org boards, as I can get myself a balanced view there. Despite the fact that it is an LDS board, there are active members (longstanding ones) from other faiths, and to me, it is more fair and balanced thatn exmo.org. However, it's important to realize that of the 12 million claimed members, many are inactive, or if they are active, do not believe. But I would wager that it is much the same rate with other religions, although perhaps just a touch higher.

Jon,

I just get very frustrated when someone blatantly misrepresents the views of really any faith in a, I don't want to say malicious because that isn't always what it is. I am surely guitly of somewhat similar things, but I try to the best of my ability to not do that.

LDS history is very misunderstood because people read a part of something and color it emotionally without even reading the whole thing much less understanding context or history, and begin to preach it to their own flock, who then say 'hey, I heard Mormons consumate their marriage on the altar' or 'Mormon girls get deflowered by the Church elders right before they get married', neither of which are anywhere near to true.

I am not trying to argue authenticity of a religion, but I honestly believe that it is not a malicious fraud, I honestly believe that Joseph Smith did not intend to rape a bunch of little girls, and I honestly believe that even if it was a fraud, it was a pious fraud. There are problems, that is very true, but I think that must be expected in something human, which a church is. See they do not believe their Church is of God, they believe their gospel is of God, while the Church is human. There is a quote that many people in the church unfortunately miss;

The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a country club for the righteous.

I think that is a profound quote despite it's quirky wording. But I think I am veering from the topic.

LDS theology is something quite different from that of other Christians, not only because they are neither Catholic nor Protestant, although they share many common traits and traditions, but because they existed in almost a religious vacuum for so many years. I don't know if you have a problem with the theology, or the history, but if they are a serious hobby for you, httpL//www.fairlds.org might provide some stimulating conversation. Actually, a lot of the folks there remind me of you, very sarcastic.

Personally, I find many parts of the theology to be more sensible than many other things. But other things, like thing such as 'If there is no God we could not exist' I think are a little muddled thinking. The history is very villified by many people, in my mind, but then again, I think many in the Church make it very innocent and try to make it blemish free.

I really don't know what I'm getting at, mostly just saying you could be a little nicer, as there is really no point in being mean. You do realize that is where a lot of the world's problems lie, yes?

Sorry, this post is kind of fragmented.

Free, you are absolutely right. That's why I quoted it. I got that burning in the bosom by watching Sin City. Now, who could say that they felt the spirit of god while watching that film?

Most of us think we have free will, but in actuality, we are being used by our mind and our repetative, useless thinking...

Read A New Earth or The Power of Now[/b] by Eckhart Tolle. Everything Spiritual including God, Original Sin, Heaven, etc.. will make perfect sense.

My standard response to this 'absolute free will' is always the same.

--> Why is it that people who are born in Germany speak German and people who are born in China speak Chinese?

If people who accept the idea that 'godless' people or 'people who haven't accepted a particular god over another' go to hell, you'll also have to accept the fact that god doesn't judge fairly.

Most religions take God to be a mental concept, a bundle of thoughts that they use to describe him. Usually an old man with a grey beard. Sometimes people are so attached to their concept of God that they begin to equate it with their sense of self. If someone has a different concept of God, no matter how different or similar it is, Their sense of self and identity feels threatened. So they must persecute or even kill the other. The fact is that they are not defending God when they do that, but in fact their individual identity or who they think they are, or the collective identity of a religious group for fear of anihilation. They fee; that if they dont defend it, they will cease to exist...This is the root of the human ego, people false mind-made sense of self. Their religion becomes part of who they think they are.


The fact is that God is NOT just a mental concept. There is not one religion that has a specific concept of God and makes it correct. God is something that can only be FELT as your own true nature.

God does not need defending of the human mind, it is peoples false sense of selves that are being defended...That is why their is so much religious persecution and hate.