silly nailface. Have a beer.

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

Wewt! I met your boyfriend! He's a cool guy.

With that said, you should post on the Interactive Story Board, right under the General Discussion <_<

Dont listen to Geb

dont listen to drizzt2k2

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

don't listen to Ruthven.

Welcome! Funnily enough my girlfriend is also called Jo

That's actually what I want to research... black holes in dual star systems and/or in the centre of galaxies. So I totally agree that they are the most interesting areas of physics.

You guys are weird.

I'm studying International Affairs so I can drop out of school and become famous.

Hey Jo, nice to see you finally caved and joined!

So how does one make money being an astrophysicist? I don't mean how do you make money personally, I mean how does studying black holes generate revenue?

Grants. Governments will sit there and think "HMM, we need to waste more tax dollars. Let's study something completely useless, like black holes that are lightyears away, or some other such nonsense." Then they give a lot of money to Universities or institutes of some sort, which then goes to pay the "scientists" ridiculous sums of money to solve no problems and come to no conclusions about said black holes and other nonsense.

[Also, other people will donate monies to their alma mater, but it's still basically the same thing. Instead of the government wasting the money, the university wastes it, then charges high tuition and book fees to compensate.]

That's what I thought, I just wanted to see how much Ms. astrophysicist here could beat around the bush to make it sound like a good thing.

Wow, good to know that Freelancer and Helle have their priorities straight

We'd better get Rob in here to so he can explain to us all why manned space flight is a waste of time and money

Because its pretty god damn near worthless given the current state of things, and a waste of my damn TAXES.

I touched your mom's black hole once.

Joey, you better get used to posts by Dj-Yoshi, Temperamental, Rob, Freelancer, me, Obi_Kwiet and many others. They're usually pretty much the same predictable words and attitudes.

Perhaps, Kyle Number Ninety from Canada, you can explain to Freelancer and I how "important" it is to know arbitrary, worthless facts about a black hole that is light years away, that no one will ever come close to encountering?

I'm just trying to figure out exactly what is "arbitrary" or "worthless" about these facts. Even if there were no benefit from knowing them, it still increases our knowledge about the universe. And thus it has worth. The truth is, though, that studying something like a black hole can help with the creation and proof of physical theories that not only explain the universe but can also provide future technologies that are used right here on Earth.

Here's a little history lesson for you: an observation of the orbit of Mercury (which would certainly fall into your category of "worthless facts") helped validate Einstein's theory of relativity. And if you think that's useless...

Even if we never encounter this black hole (which is unlikely, unless we go extinct), studying it increases our knowledge of the structure and function of the universe. In fact, it's only by studying things that are very far away that we can figure out what the universe was like when it first came into existance, which is an important part of figuring out string theory (or whatever else might be the true "theory of everything"). String theory, though probably considered "worthless" by you, might hold the key to our next stage of technological development, in the way that Maxwell's theory of electromagnetism held the key to our last.

Plus, black holes are cool. End of argument.

Just for clarification, adding "end of argument" or "nuff said" after one's reply is quite arrogant, assuming, and rather stupid, but I digress.

Anyway, I still believe it to be useless. What good will it do? I wouldh have the millions of dollars used for space research and other worthless pursuits RETURNED TO THE TAXPAYERS or USED FOR SOMETHING USEFUL, like helping peoples that require assistence, eliminating diseases, lowering the costs of medicines and medical assistence, increasing police and military power, something of USE to someone.

Knowing something purely for the sake of having knowledge is of no worth. The ability to make use of knowledge is the primary purpose of understanding.

How much worth? 50 million dollars? Or could that 50 million be better spent on roads or welfare or education? You know, things that will affect our lives less than two hundred years from now..

Edit: My point is, sure, the knowledge has worth, and it may even lead to a real tangible product that will change our lives in the distant future, but my point is that of priorities. Right now, at this point in time, it is a better value to use the money for something else.

Edit #2: You know it's bad when you could flush the money down the toilet and no one would know the difference.

I might have missed someone else mention it, but I suggest you post in the camwhore thread.

>.>
<.<

Welcome to massassi.

We like to start flamewars about religion and politics here.
So join in the fun!

And some of us have imaginary friends, that tell us we know what we're talking about.

Just for clarification, when I said "end of argument" I was referring to where I said "black holes are cool". Sorry, it was supposed to be humourous. But hey, if you want to call me "arrogant" and "assuming" just come right out and say it. You're the one that doesn't think pure scientific research has any value, which in my opinion is absolutely wrong.

Lemme guess, you're also one of these people that think that all scientists should stop what they're doing and instead look for a cure for cancer, right? (As if a physicist or an astronomer or any of a million other branches of science would know the first thing about curing diseases)

Somewhere on a post under the name of bond is a warning not to provoke me in this matter... (the speed of light thread, august 2005)

It's too late now...

Would you rather your taxes let someone to sit at home and watch television complaning of a non-exsistant back problem or pay someone to research something that may (or not) benefit mankind. You want to pay medics to research, why not physicists.

The point to looking at the sky and figuring out what the deuce is going on is that it gives us motivation for developing (for example) faster and bigger computers and technologies that let us travel around the world in a few hours. If we hadn't looked at the sun and thought "How the hell does it manage to put out so much energy?" we never would have developed the theory of fusion (and fission) and thus be in the process of developing fusion to replace the ever decrease energy supply. That goes for nuclear power too.

So, black holes seem a little exotic to have any immediate benefits however they are at the centre of every galaxy in the universe (according to current theories), including our own, and half the stars out there are going to turn into them when they die. I would call that pretty important. (Not ours in particular before you worry).

Besides.. I personally don't want to be an accountant, a teacher, a shop assisant (any more), so I think I have the right to do a job that I enjoy. And there's nothing to say that I'll be working at a government facility anyway, I'd get paid a better wage if I didn't.

And I've put my picture up on "post thy pic massassians!" thread.

Yay!

Blah.

Blah blah.

That I can see dedicating a portion, albeit a small one to.

However, spending billions of taxdollers to send rockets into space to collect rocks, or figure out if mars has ice on it is a gigantic waste in my eyes.

Wanna throw people into space? FINE. Spend money researching some sort of better travel system, that won't waste my damn money.

There are WAY better things the government could do with the money.

Firstly, they get rocks from space to compare them to the Earth and thus conclude if we are made of the same stuff. They observed amino acids floating in space and sugar and thought that maybe comets bought them here and that's why we're here.

And secondly, if mars has ice, it could be used to support life, so when we destroy Earth, or overpopulate it when we cure cancer, we can send people there to live.

I do not think that Bush should send men to mars though, it's a protected environment and should not be contaminated until it's understood. Oops, that requires more of that pesky research :p .

Pesky research that isn't helping me, my family, or millions of other people in a direct and timely maner.

There are FAR too many problems here to be tinkering with the ultimate question, or chasing a pipe dream.

Personally, I'd like to see rockets do things that are USEFUL. Other than put people to orbit or blow **** up.

Perhaps, throwing the homeless into the sun. Yess.

Nice. If you get to generalize, then so do I. Until you can produce some compelling statistics that support your point, I'm going to have to remain skeptical here. I would much rather my money went toward what welfare is intended for than subsidizing your salary, yes.


Because biologists have a better track record of improving our quality of life than physicists do.


Granted, universe simulation and other physics simulations are motivating factors in the development of computer technology, but I'll be damned if they come close to the primary reason. But I'd hardly attribute jet liners to black hole research. You're going to have to come up with a more compelling argument.


I have no qualms with nuclear energy, because it has the potential to (and already does) improve my life. What I have qualms with is sinking tax money into radical research that will never produce anything useful. (Or, if so, is so outlandish that it would be a better value to spend that money elsewhere).


Please explain how the knowledge that a black hole exists at the center of every galaxy improves humanity. If you come to the conclusion that it doesn't, then please explain why you find that knowledge important.


I'm all for you doing what you want to do, just don't trick yourself into thinking that because you work in the private sector that you're not being subsidized by our tax dollars. Tell me the name of one company that is not taking a loss in its physics R&D and I'll believe you when you tell me they're not receiving any government subsidies.

James Bond, after read Jo's posts, I think I'm in love with your woman.

From an intellectual perspective I might add (theres a first for everything)

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

Wow. I wonder if all the anti-science people here are serious or just joking. If it had been up to people thinking like that, we would still be wearing nothing but animal skins and sitting around a camp fire. After all, fire is all you need: It keeps you from freezing when it's cold, and it allows you to eat and drink safely. At that point, I'm sure there were plenty of people who thought that's the end of technical and scientific development. Nothing more is needed.

I'm pretty sure few people back then could imagine something like a wheel could help anything. Humbug!

It's easy to say one kind of research is helpful and the other kind is not - especially when you have no education in said areas. Basic research has made possible plenty of practical applications over time. My own field is biochemistry, and it's filled with very expensive basic research that can't produce anything tangible for years. Yet all that knowledge will one day make it possible to manufacture medicines we can't even imagine today or growing organs to replace damages ones. Yet right now it does nothing but eat and eat tax payers' money.

I like you already Jo.

Rob, there is a bigger picture than just you or the now. Yes, right now we are simply gathering dust and rocks from outer space, analising it, studying something beyond earth. What would you rather do with your taxes? Help that homeless dude in the street who ended up there because he was too damn dumb to quit gambling or drinking? Help all those who deserve it? I'm sorry mate, we'll end up paying for a damn load of people who don't. And say we look in, oh I don't know, 200 years from now. In the last 100 years, mankind has damaged this planet more than in the previous 2000 years. This world IS gonna die out sooner or later. If everyone was like you and thought about their little bellybuttons, believe me, humans don't have a chance at survival.

Enough words. You all must kung fu fight.

I don't have any problem with studying things that have no immediate benefit. I do have a problem, however, when priorities are mixed up.

Sure, there is a possibility that things will improve due to knowing something about a black hole way out in the middle of space. However, I do not believe that such large amounts of money should be spent on it. Cut it in half, but in thirds, put the other portion of the money into education, public utilities (roads, highwaysk, something that creates jobs), something immediately beneficial.

My first quarter as I a student I wrote a check to pay tuition. Now, 4 years later, tuition has increased 150%. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY PERCENT. Oh well, at least I can take comfort in the fact that, even though our economy is headed to ruin, and unemployment is high, and taxes are unfairly high, I can take comfot in the fact we have black hole powered, nuclear, Mercury-rock cars so I can drive my *** to the unemployment line faster.

I will refrain from making obvious comments about Kyle90, because I kinda like his style, twisted and uninformed as it is.

Since, no one reads what I put down.


THE POINT I AM MAKING, HAVE MADE, WILL MAKE, IS THAT RIGHT NOW IT IS PRETTY GOD DAMN USELESS. POSSIBLY IN THE FUTURE, IT MIGHT BE WORTH IT.

The Internet is serious business.

PS, that wheel comment was stupid. Very stupid.

I've banned Jo from discussing this any further, she does get rather heated at times when conversations go this way...

although she is very happy at all the comments......I don't know whether to be happy at that thought or worry...

plus this is starting to go wwaaaaaay off topic from a nice (friendly) hello...

I'm not going to pick on all the points posted by Rob and Freelancer as some of them are very subjective, who's to say throwing money at welfare spending will actually increase the standard of living for people who do not wish to work or can't.

Personally speaking I'd rather more of my tax money was spent on scientific research rather than welfare, but that’s because of my interests and background.

I'd rather my money wasn't spent on teenage mothers who get pregnant at 14 years old and on people who live at home and don't work because they are too lazy to, but I do understand that if money wasn't spent to support such people more people would die and the crime rate would most likely increase as a result.

Balance is the key here and there will always be arguments to and against what gets the spending...

I believe that the standard of living has increased more as a result of scientific understanding being applied to everyday living than it has through welfare spending, but who exactly has ever done any research in this area to quantify this??? microwave ovens, the internet, jet engines...I could go on...



funny one that, I thought you might not leave yourself open to the counter-argument for this..

Ever had a broken bone? been to the dentist? X-rays, I don't think I need to say anymore on that one.

MRI's designed by a physicist (who funnily enough just happened to study his BSc at my university Queen Mary and got the Nobel Prize for it very recently)

Discovery of DNA, made by three physicists and one Zoologist

All fields of scientific research have there own merits and each end up crossing over into each other, neither can be said to be more important than another.



Who is to say research that is currently considered "radical" won't be considered the norm in 10-20 years...

Colossus, the computer built during WWII to decode the German Enigma code was considered at the time a huge waste of money and something VERY radical. It wasn't until it decoded Enigma ~1944 that its full use was realised and another 10-20 years until computers became a near everyday appliance.

The fundamental thinking behind Colossus was physics and maths.

I can say without a doubt that none of us were around to experience the publication Einstein's 3 papers on Brownian Motion, The Photoelectric Effect and The Theory on Special Relativity, which at the time were more radical than anything ever seen at the time and against so many long held scientific beliefs.

Saying what is radical now and what will still be considered radical in the future is a very hard thing to say, money isn't just thrown at any physicist, chemist or biologist now-a-days, it can take anywhere from 6 months up to 4 years for research money to be given and only after the research proposal has gone through many different hands.

Without scientific development & social development a society will stagnate, when that happens, just wait and see what happens to human society, meltdown.

James Bond wins. Sorry guys, but when I hear "I WANT RESULT NOW, I DON'T WANT TO SPEND MY TAX MONEY INTO SCIENCE BECAUSE IT'S USELESS", I think "American ignorance". I don't know why. It just comes to me that way. People seem to be impatient these days, and they forgot that the best things comes when you put your best effort in and be patient.

No field of science is better than the other. In fact, our scientist here in Massassi could intarweb-slap you for that. Or punch. Punching sounds more fun. >: )

People also tend to forget that just by studying something you may think useless, could be the best breakthrough for human kind. Everything has potential. Even black holes.

I didn't say physics were usless.

I didn't say physiststsisists were useless.

I didn't say science was useless.

I did say space exploration and moon rocks aren't doing a damn for the situation this country is in with money right now.

AND GOOD. I hope she did get worked up.

Every time I can get someone worked up over the internet, a 7-11 employee quits their job and on the way out of the store is hit by a drunk driver.

1.) At our current population growth rate, and not enough babies being killed, we won't have enough space to live and grow. Space exploration and geologist plan to study foreign planets, such as Mars, in hopes to one day turn it into a liveable enviroment.

2.) Those rocks that the geologist study could hold a key to something. Even curing cancer, maybe. Or if there's ET life out there.

3.) Those rocks could also be used as an alternate natural resource. For example, at our current rate of copper mining, we will be depleted within the next 10-20 years (I believe.)