I thinking about health insurance for about 2 seconds today, and I came to the conclusion that the reason that health insurance is profitable is because it is less expensive to pay your medical expenses out of your pocket than paying for health insurance your whole life...

otherwise, health insurance companies would have gone bankrupt.

So if everyone would just stop paying for health insurance and pay their medical expenses with the money they use to pay for health insurance, they should theoretically save money over the course of their lifetime. Particularly sick individuals win out in the whole insurance scheme obviously, but not the average person. If you're really healthy you're getting scammed, plain and simple.

so.... yeah..

and if people would stop suing all the damn doctors maybe THEY wouldn't need insurance and so they wouldn't need to charge you an arm and a leg for medical service.

It's easy to pay for your medical expenses out of pocket until you need a major surgery. Then you go bankrupt if you don't have insurance, and sometimes even if you do. Medical bills are the number one cause of bankruptcy in America.



Unless you're super rich. In which case it doesn't matter.

But they should just let you pay for surgery in an installment plan. That way, you're not wasting all that money paying insurance when you don't need it, plus you don't go bankrupt.

What will they do if you don't pay?

Repo your heart?

"Uhmm sir, you've missed 4 payments. We're going to need that heart back."

The same thing they do if they don't pay currently. The hospital eats the loss and charges more for services as a result. Not paying doesn't have anything to do with it, Rob. I would be very surprised if hospitals ended up getting shafted more often under my system than the current system, because as far as math is concerned, people under my system have more money.

hospitals are a business in the US. your health means nothing unless you got cash.

'bleed and die for all we care. you got any money?', said the nurse to the baby in the emergency room. 'oh wait... we'll fix you. then when you can't pay, you'll claim bankruptcy and pay for the rest of your life because some **** drove their car into your living room and nearly crushed you. and because you can't pay and you are now financially devastated people like DJ Yoshi will think you're just lazy because you work 2 jobs yet still can't seem to pay for college and get an education to get you out of the financial hell we;ve just put you through. right this way honey.'

it boggles my ****ing mind how americans don't care about each other so much so that they would pay for a universal healthcare system.
'it's my money. i don't care if you have cancer from the SUV me and 30,000,000 of my friends drive. it's your fault for breathing and/or living in the city.'

I'd gladly have my incometax doubled, even trippled with no tax return if it meant accessable financial aid for medical related stuff.

[QUOTE=Darth Evad]hospitals are a business in the US. your health means nothing unless you got cash.

'bleed and die for all we care. you got any money?', said the nurse to the baby in the emergency room. 'oh wait... we'll fix you. then when you can't pay, you'll claim bankruptcy and pay for the rest of your life because some **** drove their car into your living room and nearly crushed you. and because you can't pay and you are now financially devastated people like DJ Yoshi will think you're just lazy because you work 2 jobs yet still can't seem to pay for college and get an education to get you out of the financial hell we;ve just put you through. right this way honey.'

it boggles my ****ing mind how americans don't care about each other so much so that they would pay for a universal healthcare system.
'it's my money. i don't care if you have cancer from the SUV me and 30,000,000 of my friends drive. it's your fault for breathing and/or living in the city.'[/QUOTE]

My point is, I would rather deal directly with a hospital than through an insurance agency. Ideally, that hospital would be forbidden by the government to operate like a regular business, because regular businesses strive for profit through advertising, cutting costs, and shady dealings.

I wouldn't mind a national health care system at all, in fact I would welcome it as the best solution. However, I would much rather that the hospital actually cared for its patients financially as well as physically by providing them the means to reasonably pay, by giving them low monthly payments if they need it at a low interest rate, than have to deal with another layer of business (insurance companies) that strip you of even MORe of your money.

The reason health insurance is som expensive is because so many malpractice suits are brought against the companies.

Also, depending on what kind of care you need, it could cost tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. Just like any collection agency, they'll go after you assests and pass debt on to your next of kin. Also, never mind how frightfully expensive percrsiption medications can be. I'll stick to paying my $150 a month.

That's what they say, but honestly I'm skeptical. Do you have any numbers? How many malpractice claims can there be? I've never met anyone who's filed any. And on the other hand, does so many claims mean that people are greedy or that we have ****ty doctors here that do poor jobs? Maybe the problem with our health care system nowdays is that too many people become doctors because they wanna make big bucks, rather than because they want to help people.

Even if the suits are tossed out, there are still lots of court costs to pay for. Also, many of the suits are settled out of court, for some smaller sum of money. Now, I'm not going to deny that the companies are in it to make money, just the same as the drug companies. Another factor, I think, is that baby boomers are starting to reach the elderly age range where far more medical care is needed.

How much?



How many and for how much and how much does that contribute to driving up medical costs?

A national healthcare system is the ABSOLUTE LAST thing I want. There would be huge lines for things like basic health services (even more so than now), not enough resources to go around, and a general drop in quality. Also, you would have to pay for health problems people brought upon themselves (smoking-related cancers, obesity-related diseases, effects of long-term drug use, etc.), and I don't feel like paying for other peoples' mistakes. Why should someone who got lung cancer from smoking or let themselves get morbidly obese get to live off of my dime and give me nothing in return?

You realize of course that it is not this way in America because some people go without the help they need, yes?

But your second point is a very good point.

This is true, and while it may sound cold and unmerciful, it's not my responsibility to look after these people just like it's not their responsibility to ensure my needs are taken care of. The general rule is that people have to be responsible for their own well-being to the best extent that they can given their circumstances. Even if they are lower-income and can't afford the treatments they need, I don't see why it would be my responsibility to subsidize it even if I could afford it, (when such people would not be in a position to subsidize mine) to be honest with you. Being mandated to take care of these problems would create a very one-sided and unfair system. I have my own expenses to take care of, just like everyone else.

A national healthcare system would be whatever the nation makes it. As evidenced by Canada, whose healthcare system is rated higher than that of the United States.

[QUOTE=Darth Evad]it boggles my ****ing mind how americans don't care about each other so much so that they would pay for a universal healthcare system.[/QUOTE]

If there's one thing I can count in a thread like this, it's for Evad to regurgitate the "Americans don't care about each other" fallacious argument. It's not that Americans don't genuinely care about each other (I'm sure there are plenty that don't *coughpagewizardcough*, but that's not relevant). It's that America has a much higher non-tax-paying base than Canada. Thus, there is a much larger amount of people who use the services without paying to support it. Thus, a system implemented like Canada's or Britain's would not work. The ideal system would be a bracketed subsidy program or tax break system, where, dependent upon your income, the government would subsidize a certain amount of your health insurance expenses. Beyond that, however, the U.S. government can not, by itself, sustain the medical needs of 293-plus-change million people.



Deal with it. Part of being protected by the government is helping the other people it protects.

On the original topic: it's easier to pay x-amount for 12 months than it is to pay 12x right at the same time. Forcing the hospitals to swallow the cost and force the damage on other people is just as selfish as Pagewizard's proposal.

Pagewizard, so if you got hit by a car tomorrow and during your coma and extensive 2 yr. recovery they found you have cancer of the lungs because you breathe the air in america (your fault for living in a region with bad air), and you're insurance company wanted to look into the claim (as they do often times when a claim is >$100,000) you would be ok with it to just sit and die knowing that the taxes of every single person in the country, $15,000/yr. all the way up to $30,000,000/yr, would've avoided any troubles what-so-ever while the insurance company hmmm'ed and hawed over whether you qualify and then charge you the deductables that you now can't afford because you haven't been working?
am i making this up? it happens every single day. and it's probably more bizarre than that.

btw, i pay >$6/pack extra taxes to defray the costs of extra health-care as do most other smokers. we take care of ourselves very well. and as a matter of fact, the billions we pay in extra smoking taxes don't get funneled into healthcare like they should. leave the smokers out of this. we pay through the nose.

[QUOTE=Darth Evad]we pay through the nose.[/QUOTE]

...and the mouth, and the throat, and the lungs... :p

point taken. but i still hold that if enough americans truely did look out their windows and actually cared more about each other than their money, there would be enough voice to change the system. there's way too much press about americans in every walk of life caring more about money than they do about each other for me not to believe it.

It not so much that Americans don't care. There is a lot of tax revenue collected at every level of goverment in the US, federal all the way down to the city. If the government were willing to change it's spending and create a national health care system without raising taxes, the US public would be just fine with it.

I'm not even calling for a change in spending. If they implemented my subsidy program, I wouldn't mind a tax hike at all.

I would be too, but I don't think most Americans would.

Yeah! If your house burns down, why should my tax dollars go towards the firetruck that puts out the fire? It's not my house. Or if your wife is murdered, why should my tax dollars go towards finding the killer? She's not my wife. It's not my responsibility to look after you, Page.

I had my appendix out a few months before I was no longer covered on my mom's insurance and the total bill was $14,000. This included pretty much just routine stuff. The surgery was actually pretty simple since they did a relatively new method where they take the appendix out through the navel instead of cutting you open and I only stayed one night in the hospital. The only thing the insurance made us pay for was $200 for the overnight stay, the other $13,800 the insurance paid.

Even in installments, $14K would hurt someone in our situation. Our household income is around $30k a year with my mom and aunt's checks combined.

So while insurance does rip you off alot of times, it's more helpful than you realize.

yeah insurance is well worth the expense, i used to not have insurance and i had to go to the hospital, all they did was take a blood test, give me two advil, and had me lie in a bed for 6 hours and charged me 1,800 $ if i had had my current medical insurance that i have now, i would have only had to have paid 200 $ of that...

yea health insurance is a ripoff, unless you break something. i've never broken anything so i go to the doctor maybe once every two years, usually for something stupid like bronchitis-which i've discovered the easiest way to get rid of that is by drinking loads of water, not going in and paying $80 for 7 days worth of drugs that don't do anything.

I didn't realize that your the only person in the US who pays taxes!



There are many political and idealogical reasons why Americans don't want a national healthcare system. For example, America is currently has a boner for deregulation. States vs. Federal rights is still an idealogical fight going on this country. Additionally, its difficult to start a costly Federal system when you're already spending a trillion dollars a year on healthcare, and have a several trillion dollar defecit.

National healthcare isn't happening in America this decade!

Money money money mooooney.

MONEY.

Freelancer, you've got it wrong. The reason health insurance is so expensive is because millions or people pay for their insurance, each month, yet only a small fraction actually have to use it (for major expenses). The insurance companies collect more money from the masses than they have to pay out to the minorities.

It's the same with auto insurance, fire, and most (if not all) other insurances.

A national healthcare system was attempted with "HillaryCare." That went nowhere FAST. And I think it was one of the reasons why the Right gained A LOT of House and Senate seats in 1994.

Like volcano insurance?

Cuz...you know...I think we're overdue for one.

The reason medical insurance is so high is because people don't buy insurance--making the hospitals eat the losses, raise their prices, making medical insurance more expensive...it's a loop. I've actually had a couple lectures from people who work for hospitals and insurance companies and that's why they say medical insurance is so high.

Yep, that as well as insane malpractice insurance prices caused by excessive litigation that hospitals trickle down to the patients.

But I still think if hospitals offered their patients a little better payment options, they wouldn't have to raise their rates so often.

Payment options have nothing to do with it. It's the sheer cost of the services at the hospital, My GF got 4 stitches last year. It cost over $3000. That's 15 minutes of a doctor's time, a sterile needle, a shot of local anesthesia and the stitches themselves. Fortunately, her insurance covered it, but how can you honestly justify paying $3000 for something like that? Payment plan my ***.

That's TOTALLY bull****, Avenger. I would have sued their asses for extortion!

It is extortion, but it's also all there is.

I'm not big into socialism, but I agree that healthcare should be affordable to everyone.

Our constitutional rights gives us the right to LIFE. It's our right to have the best healthcare we can get. IMHO some doctors are overpaid, while some are underpaid.

The movie John Q. really opened my eyes, as it was based on actaul things that were taking place behind hospital walls.

The medical field has become almost an pure moneymaking industry rather than a self-giving practice that philosophers like Hypocrates invisioned. Most doctors are too concerned with what's going into their wallets, than the well-being of their patients. Anyone agree?

I just have one small quarrel in here: Evad, the United States are not some cesspool of cancer-causing air. I'm not sure if you're aware of this but there is more to the united states than California and New York. There's that whole middle part, there. Where a ton of people live.

Also, as someone else stated here, one of the values that americans seem to try to stick to is the rights and freedoms of the individual, and with that comes individual responisibility. America is not big on supporting fellow citizens in every aspect not because they don't care, but because they believe more in making your own way.

Finally, the reason insurance works is because it provides security. You pay for the constant security of knowing that whatever happens, it'll get paid for. If all you have is a wad of cash you've been building up for a while, there is a good chance that IF something goes wrong (you get hit by a bus or get cancer) you won't have the money to pay for it up front. AND, if something goes terribly wrong and you don't have enough money, there is no sure way to know that you will be able to get the money AFTER it happens, either.

There are still efforts to provide basic care to people who can't afford them....free clinics are a form of that, and charities....