I don't think this has been posted yet....

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/14/scotus.pledge/index.html

A slap in the face for the atheist.

[This message has been edited by Morfildor (edited June 14, 2004).]

Maybe you didn't read the whole article but they ruled that the father had no right to speak for the girl becaue of a ivorce hearing that is going on, not that those wors should be in the anthem, so it isnt a slap in the face to atheists at all.

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Kenya, Now with lions and tigers.

That's got more to do with tradition than religion, methinks.

Interesting way to sidestep the issue. Now another case will be brought by someone else and will have to work its way through the court systems of local, state, federal, and finally the supreme court. That's our tax money hard at work. Wouldn't it be nice if they just answered the freaking question and ruled on it? *sigh*

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EvilMagic.net: Brian's Web Log

I think we should just make Congress eat it.

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

Now come on, we can think of something more painful than that....

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Kenya, Now with lions and tigers.

Hmmmm sorry to be picky, but notice I said "A slap in the face for the atheist." It's singular... I know it's not about the the bigger issue.

If it was I would have pluralized it.

Edit - grammar

[This message has been edited by Morfildor (edited June 14, 2004).]

Brian, I understand your comments and can certainly sympathize but that man really doesn't have the right to speak for his daughter in this matter. Not only is he not the custodial parent but the girl has no problem with the pledge.

I do wish we would see a ruling in this matter. Personally, I just don't see how a voluntary pledge (where one can omit parts or the whole thing) that acknowledges a cultural belief equates to congress making any laws respecting religion or the free exercise there of.

I just don't understand why people can't be more tolerant of the beliefs of others.

And I understood that he was meaning "the atheist" as in the one that made the suit. He kind of deserves it for using his daughter for political purposes.

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Have you forgotten ...

The ironic part is the little girl isn't atheist like her father


You want to bring in the issue of a minors legal ability to consent to pretty much anything?

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The sooner you realize I'm right the better off you will be.

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited June 14, 2004).]

Where I go to school, the pledge is forced by many of the teachers. It is not a "voluntary" thing. My English teacher two years ago had a rule that said you must stand and say the pledge, else you lost points. This does not seem to be very voluntary.

As for the actual words "under God" let me say this: There are those who believe in no gods of any kind. The pledge says otherwise. There are also those who believe in multiple gods. The pledge says "under God." It directly states that we are under the Christian god. For those that believe this, they think nothing of it. For those who have differing beliefs, it is a slap in the face.

I don't believe in the Christian God, and I don't take it as a slap in the face at all.

The way I see it goes a little like this: You live in America. If they want to make you say the pledge, say it. Find something more important in your life to cry about. I'm sure there are other things that require more attention than this.

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Do you have stairs in your house?

It most certainly does not make a statement that can be soley interpreted as refering to a Christian god. Christianity is not the only monotheistic religion in existence.

With that being said, the fact that ours is a Judeo-Christian culture is undisputable. But we are also a culture that accepts and recognizes that everyone is uniquely entitled to their own beliefs.

If a teacher makes someone stand and pledge to something the do not care to then that teacher should be disciplined. That would be a perfectly acceptable court case. Although, I do find it appropriate to be made to stand in respect to others just as I would act appropriately if (and when) I am in the company of those who are praying

Kieran, both the girl and the girls custodial parent, her mother, have no problem with the Pledge. I don't see this as a minor consent issue.



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Have you forgotten ...

-4 on the father for using his daughter to advance his political agenda. The mother AND daughter had no objection to God being in the Pledge.

"I want to see God removed from the pledge NOW! This is hurting my daughter"
"But daddy, I don't mind saying God"
"Shhh honey. Daddy's raging war against Christianity."

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Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.

I always said "Under Bob, Divisible, with SUVs and Reality TV for all". And this was pretty much coverd by the droning of the other students.

Hey, if you don't like it, don't say it, it's what I've always done, and no one gave me trouble for it. If the school did take diciplinary action, that would be another story.

I don't have much to say about this case, except at least it isn't being spent on other, more stupid things. Because as you know, the well of stupid spending is infinite...

Anyway...

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http://www.4guys-1dragoon.cjb.net -No porn. We promise*

The whole issue is stupid, imo.
Nobody's going to be traumatized by a two-word phrase, I promise you all.

Ugh.. honestly I haven't heard anything creepier than a bunch of kids repeating the pledge. Seperation of church and state in america will never happen - or at least, not for a very long time. I mean, you're talking about a country where the vast majority of people are religious, say 'thank god', 'god bless' or some other expression using the word 'god' every other sentence, a country where even the liberals are too conservative.

Oh well. At least I don't have to live there.

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

See, Flex, that's why i am such a solid supporter of the Un-theon to which Qod belongs, it's such an important distinction. Because the vast majority of the time people use those phrases it hasn't a damn thing or thought to do with God, it's just habit or a figure of speech, a sloppy ambiguous one no less.

I figure a good solid "Spiro F'ing Agnew!" beats out any of the 'religious' variants on that curse any day of the week.

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"If all those usefull inventions that are lyable to abuse, should therefore be concealed, there is not any Art or Science, which might be lawfully profest."
-John Wilkins, Mercury, or the Secret and Swift messenger, shewing how a man may with privacy and speed Communicate his thoughts to a Friend at any distance (London, 1641)
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

[This message has been edited by Dormouse (edited June 14, 2004).]

As long as there are tests in school, there will be prayer.

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I can't think of anything to put here right now.

I really think the idea of the pledge is a terrible one anyway, and the "under god" is just a follow-up slap. Can you say "silly attempt at indoctrnation"? How many people do you think really mean or even know what they're saying? An entire school chanting, cult-like. Sad.

I always jsut stand up in respect for the flag, but I never put my hand to my heart or pledge. The country should be pledging to ME. Last year after I'd been doing this for a month or two, my teacher said to the whole class, "I've noticed some of you don't pledge...I'm interested to know why. If you want to, I'd be interested in reading why you don't, just leave it on my desk later." Obviously I was the only one int he class who wasn't, so I knew he was talking to me. I was glad to write it down and tell him. He never mentioned it again. I still wonder what he thought of it.

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WOOSH|-----@%

Well, if you said anything about how the country should be pledging to you in your paper he probably just thought you were a lost cause.

It's probably true to say that kids don't really understand much about the pledge. It's the kind of thing you appreciate more when you're older, I think.

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Have you forgotten ...

I was referring to the fact that I believe a nation's purpose should be to protect the rights of its people first, rather than the other way around first. It's circular, but you catch the meaning.

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WOOSH|-----@%

You stand up when you see an American flag?
Wow. I don't think many Britons would bat an eyelid if they saw a union jack on fire.




What.

Is that legal?
What about non-American students, or anti-American students?
There would be such an uproar if everyone was forced to sing 'God save the Queen' here.

Heh, I want to go to an American school just so I can refuse to say the pledge of allegiance.

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited June 15, 2004).]

That reminded me of this mix, Bob. Which is quite possibly one of the most amazing and beautiful things of all time.. right up there with the Picard dance mix.

JFK - The Ask Not Waltz

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"If all those usefull inventions that are lyable to abuse, should therefore be concealed, there is not any Art or Science, which might be lawfully profest."
-John Wilkins, Mercury, or the Secret and Swift messenger, shewing how a man may with privacy and speed Communicate his thoughts to a Friend at any distance (London, 1641)
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

Mort-Hog, no, only when they feel the need to lead us in the pledge.

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WOOSH|-----@%

You tried to use the argument of the girl not caring about having to say the pledge and that kind of argument wouldn't work in a court room.

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The sooner you realize I'm right the better off you will be.

I only said that in reference to the fact that the man wasn't bringing the suit for the benefit of his daughter. Maybe if the girl were being forced to do something that was contradictory to her and her mother's beliefs and/or was harming her in some way then he would have a case. That certainly isn't the case here, though.

But you do raise an interesting question. Why is it you assume that a minor's consent is irrelevant? I'm not sure that it is. There are things that minors cannot legally consent to but I don't think it is true that minors cannot legally consent to anything. I could be wrong, in legal terms. I'm no lawyer.

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Have you forgotten ...

My thoughts exactly

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WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

Its a stupid and pointless debate, if you don't want to say it, don't.

Don't complain!

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"Bantha's are filthy animals.......I don't eat filthy animals."

"Laugh it up Fuzzball!"
-Han Solo

In primary school, we had a very Christian headmaster and we had to say the Lord's prayer in morning assembely, and in Latin in Wednesdays. But you didn't have to and there were several Muslim students who didn't go to assembelies. I only participated in the Wednesday one because I wanted to learn the Latin.

I still think that was unfair, though, as those students were being separated from everyone else and being seen as 'different' and no doubt were picked on to some degree because of it.

As for the 'minor's consent'.. If she's had to say this pledge every day in school, then of course she's going to end up accepting it. The argument here is that children shouldn't have religion thrust upon them in school, so of course the child that is being brainwashed isn't going to object. They don't have an objective view of the matter and they aren't capable of analysing the situation logically.

That's not what I meant Mort. A minor can not consent to most things(at least legally) because minors are seen as too underdeveloped to fully understand what's going on and how their choices affect themself and others.

And saying "Under God" isn't thrusting religion upon a child and they aren't going to start believing christianity because of it.

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The sooner you realize I'm right the better off you will be.

They're going to start accepting 'God' without question, though.

Just because you say "Under God" does not mean you accept him. Saying and believing are two different things.

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The sooner you realize I'm right the better off you will be.