Deus Ex and System Shock are more RPGish than FPSish

[QUOTE=Victor Van Dort]Deus Ex and System Shock are more RPGish than FPSish[/QUOTE]
Except they're not just RPGs, they're FPS'. You can argue until you're blue in the face, but they can be placed in both genres. Meaning they are FPS' as well as RPGs (which I consider FPS' with RPG elements).

IGN agrees with me :p

IGN » Games » PC Games » Reviews » RPG » Deus Ex

Wel shall call them FPRPGS, or some other combination of those letters.

[QUOTE=Victor Van Dort]IGN agrees with me :p

IGN » Games » PC Games » Reviews » RPG » Deus Ex[/QUOTE]
What's your point?

Like Oblivion?

-It's a first person role-playing game, except when you go in third person mode (like Jedi Knight...)

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Traditionally they're not anything. There's a lot of FPS' that aren't linear.[/quote]

I didn't argue that there weren't somewhat non-linear FPSes, but the fact remains that most FPSes are linear. Games are starting to come out that delve into non-linear gameplay, but, up until recently, FPSes have been linear.

Furthermore, what's necessarily wrong with linear gameplay?

1) Most FPS' are linear. Most FPS' also suck. And games have been out for years that delve into the non-linear side of shooters. Like I said, System Shock, Deus Ex, Thief, all great non-linear FPS'.

2) Nothing's wrong with linear gameplay, but when it's TERRIBLY linear (only one path) and the weapons suck my wang...well...it makes for no fun.

Jarl--It's not really an FPSRPG, because the FPS part is optional.

Then JK isn't an FPRPG, because the F part's optional.

-And in JO, so's the RPG part.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Like I said, System Shock, Deus Ex, Thief, all great non-linear FPS'.[/quote]

Like I said, Quake, Quake II, DooM, DooM2, Wolfenstein 3D, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, No One Lives Forever, JK, Dark Forces, Jedi Outcast, Battlefield 1942, Heretic, Unreal, Hexen II, Undying, SiN, Red Faction 1 & 2, DooM3, Duke Nukem 3D, Blood...

(I'm omitting Half-Life, despite the fact that it's a milestone of an FPS, for obvious reasons)

JK isn't linear, Jedi Outcast similarly isn't linear, BF1942 doesn't even have an SP portion, really, Red Faction isn't that linear, not to mention I already said 50% of your list is made up of sequels.

My point is that there are good FPS' that are linear, but it's not a good quality inherently. Linearity is not good, it's too structured and cages the mind of someone who really enjoys their games.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Linearity is not good, it's too structured and cages the mind of someone who really enjoys their games.[/QUOTE]

That would be your opinion, then.

And, yes, JK is linear, as is Jedi Outcast. They follow one path with a few small, minor deviations, but they follow, in general, one path.

So...how about that Half-Life 2: Episode 1.

...Not that other game.

...No...really? I thought it was fact. Isn't there something right next to my name that says "ALL POSTS ARE FACT"? God, I could have swor--

OH WAIT. No **** it's my opinion.

What isn't my opinion is that traditionally FPS' aren't linear. The majority of them are, but there's a long, deep-rooted tradition of multiple paths in FPS'.

JK and JO follow one path with more than a few deviations, also. They're not exactly the most non-linear of games, but they're also not straight-shot linear like Doom or Half-Life or other such games.

JK's only deviation is the different fates of Jan and your fight with Yun - a total of, what, 15 minutes?

And how is JO not-linear at all?

Light/Dark

I think he means JA.

Even in JA, you only choose Light/Dark for the last one or two levels. Even then it's pretty much the same. You can still have linear gameplay but have choices to make. The level designs in JO/JA were all VERY linear, even if you did make a choice or two.

[QUOTE=Victor Van Dort]Even in JA, you only choose Light/Dark for the last one or two levels. Even then it's pretty much the same. You can still have linear gameplay but have choices to make. The level designs in JO/JA were all VERY linear, even if you did make a choice or two.[/QUOTE]
True, but not nearly as linear as HL2 was. It was seriously like you followed a ****ing dotted line.

No one's arguing that Half-Life 2 wasn't linear.

As a random note, F.E.A.R. must be one of the most linear games in a long time. It's still great.

I wasn't saying anyone did. I was just making a comment.

Yes, everyone's made lots of those.
Lots of comments.

Many appear to be quite angry aswell.
I can't say for certain that they were intended to be angry but they appear to be, to me anyways.

But on topic.

I don't consider liner gameplay a bad thing if it's done well, and I think HL2 and HL2:E1 did it quite nicely.

I would have liked E1 to have been longer and given more of the story but I still really enjoyed it.

The friendly AI has noticably improved.
In HL2 I did everything I could to get them killed because they got in the way, although they had a much more prominent role but still, This may be the first time that I acctualy enjoyed an escort mission.

And while the gameplay is liner it does have replay value and I will be replaying it.


And one question, I found Call of Duty to be incredibly liner, almost everything in there was completely scripted (to my knowledge). I can't speak for UO or CoD2, but what about CoD made it non-liner?


And also, the BiA series has great non-liner gameplay. Storywise it's very liner but with very decent AI and your squads to prder around it gives you alot of options to try it differently every time.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Light/Dark[/QUOTE]

WRONG. JO makes no distinction between light and dark, NOR does it let you choose powers at ALL.

You can approach combat situations from many different directions, often flanking the enemies and taking them by surprise. Of course you still have to go in a linear way (point a to point b) but how you get there is up to you.


Hey free, we already covered this, I was thinking of JA not JO. Learn 2 read thread, please.

Well, I finished HL: Ep 1. I would imagine it took me roughly 5 hours on medium. I didn't try to rush through it, but went at a moderate pace

To me, yes HL is linear. But to me, HL2 and Ep's 1 sole purpose is to advance a story while visually overloading the senses. It's like a book - you follow one path. It's the details and all the fill in's that make it a great book (or experience with a game).

That's how HL:2 succeeded for me. I really enjoyed Ep 1 and think it was a good length for the price.

My only complaint was that since so much of it was the Citadel/City 17 - it might feel like you've 'been here before'.

And I don't get the argument saying JK is not as linear as HL:2 (or other games). Is it only because of light/dark side force powers? HL:2 and Ep:1 has a path for you to follow, littered with tons of sequenced events. However, the enemies that lie in your path and how you approach killing them are your choice. Use guns? Sure. Use the physics and have fun with different items? Sure... Push an explosive barrel in front of a door, then lead the enemies out and shoot it? Whatever you want to do...

Point being - pretty much every FPS is going to be linear. HL:2 isn't very squad based, so you can't have that type of non-linear combat as other squad games.

Ep:1 is by far the best usage of an AI escort I've seen in a game... Instead of getting frustrated with AI falling off, standing in a room - Alyx takes cover, follows you good, runs away from explosions, etc.

And yes, it's your opinion Yoshi. But EVERY single post you make on every thread reeks of a 'superiority' complex in which it's your opinion - but everything everyone else says is wrong.

Anyone that uses JK to support an opinion on another game needs to play more games.

The problem for me is, I have books. If I want a book, I'll read a book. If I want a movie, I'll watch a movie. I don't want a game that presents itself like a book or movie.


Yeah, you can kill enemies in different ways, but that doesn't mean it's non-linear. There's only one way to approach everything, and it's all scripted to force you into a certain chain of events.

JK isn't linear because you could take a few approaches to it. The force powers (such as jump and speed) opened up new paths that allowed you to skip around on levels, not to mention the ability to go light/dark by killing civilians needlessly or letting them be.


Uh...No. I already listed a TON of FPS' that aren't linear. There are a lot of FPS' that are, true, but there are a lot that aren't as well. Linear FPS' can be fun, but Linearity is not a good quality. I think you missed the entire argument and every single argument I made, and just decided to repost everything wolfy ever said.


Haha. Whine more, seriously. "OH MY GOD HE ACTS SUPERIOR"--no ****, I'm expressing my opinion, meaning I'm going to think everyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong. Otherwise I wouldn't be expressing my opinion, because I'd be and indecisive little *****. God forbid I act like I believe in my opinion.

"Superiority complex", whatever. You and all the other whiny little massassians keep saying this, and I fail to see it. It's not a superiority complex, it's me expressing my opinion. The only reason you say ANYTHING is because I'm not a nice guy. I'm not someone who makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, so I must be a bad man and you try to find character flaws in me.

Guess what, it's not working. Tough ****.


Quit being a stupid anti-fanboy. I used a LOT of games to support my opinion, not just JK. I would agree if that's all I used, but I was more focusing on System Shock and Deus Ex than anything, which are undoubtedly and inarguably about as non-linear as it gets.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Blah[/QUOTE]

If you can't read your own post and see how you impose yourself as 'superior' , then I guess you will keep failing to see it.

Well, keep arguing every thread 'Mr. I average 14 posts a day!' Once you enter the real world and get into real issues that aren't on an Internet forum, you're tactics of name calling, labeling, and putting people in groups will do you real good.

Your*

And I don't have "tactics" of namecalling, labelling, blah blah etc, but thanks for the generalization. I just call it like I see it.

Also, why does it matter that I average 14 posts a day? Oh man, that means I must be the DEVIL!

Grammar Nazism is a cheap tactic. Don't resort to it please.

Tactic? I wasn't doing anything except correcting him. I wasn't being a grammar nazi. Then it'd be "Your you ****ing idiot. Jesus, learn the english language."

Doesn't it get boring doing this on every thread? Or at least tiring?

LOTSA PICS

http://images.mzzt.net/hl2ep1/ minor spoilers therein in some of the pics. Below links have no spoilers.

Hello Mr Freeman.
Hmm?
Wuzzat.

WRAAA

Meet Dog, the robotic antenna.

OH NOS, TEH PLOT THICKENS

"Look out!"

(Following series has a minor spoiler.)
Hmm how to get over there?
What's Dog doing over...?
CRUNCH!
"You can't be serious."
"Well Gordon, he IS a robot. He's done the math."
"You, uh, did do the math, right?"
"Hurry up Dog, before I change my AAH!"
Safe and sound.
OR THEN NOT.

And this is just the first 10 minutes. Much more pics in the first link.

Ooh post one more:



OMG BREEN STILL ALIVE AAH SPOIELR.

Actually I j/k, it's just a recording of stuff that happened in HL2 that Alyx accidentally calls up.

Tiring? What, expressing my opinion and getting attacked for it? Yeah, that's a little tiring. But I don't go and whine about it everytime you guys post in response to me.

See, what you guys fail to notice is as much as you ***** and complain about me being mean and insulting you, as much as you whine about me making my opinions "overbearing", you guys do the exact same things. You guys are all hypocrites. I can't count on my fingers and toes how many times in the past week I've been insulted by massassians, how many times I've been told to shut up and go away, whether my post was derogatory, inflammatory, or not. I can't count how many times I've been insulted oh so subtley (SAJN. Yes, I'm referring to you, and I'm not too much of a coward to make some transparent attack with the Zero Tolerance rule in effect.) only to retaliate and be called out as a horrible person by the same exact person that insulted me in the first place.

You guys are all stupid little kids whining about stupid pointless bull**** as if it mattered. Everytime someone scuffs your shoes you go crying to mommy and daddy. That's the difference between all the massassians who have joined the "hate Dj Yoshi club" and the person you hate so much--I'm not the kind of guy who would be such a raging hypocrite.

That's the only thing I'm sick of, but it doesn't even make me angry, as you guys might think the way I post. It just makes me disappointed and irritated, at worst.

I assume you're taking two bits of HL2 dialog: The end of HL2 where Breen comments that Alyx has her mother's eyes (and the absense of the mother in Black Mesa East) and the scene where Alyx says "I hope you don't remember who you were". This second scene does seem rather personal to her. Maybe you're onto something, any other scenes that you think contribute to this theory of yours?

Breen was a tool of the Combine. He was not necessary, they just used him as a puppet to keep the illusion that mankind had some level of power, to help control the populace and prevent uprisings. They could still run the planet without him. The Combine were only loyal to the Overwatch. They probably only listened to Breen at all because of orders from the Overwatch.

I assume the packet contains a call for help to the Overwatch. The pods that are shooting out have to be containers for the creatures you see in the video feed from wherever Mossman is. The packet must be related to them somehow, but they could also have been launched at the end of Episode One simply to save them from the Citadel's destruction.

The main bulk of the packet is probably something that can't be put together using the current available evidence. We'll have to wait for Episode Two.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]but it doesn't even make me angry... It just makes me disappointed and irritated[/QUOTE]

FarCry had excellent overall AI behavior, but FEAR's trumped it in combat situations methinks... maybe not in the overall organization of the enemy squads (because of fewer wide areas) but definitely in the intelligence and behavior of individual units.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]You can approach combat situations from many different directions, often flanking the enemies and taking them by surprise. Of course you still have to go in a linear way (point a to point b) but how you get there is up to you.


Hey free, we already covered this, I was thinking of JA not JO. Learn 2 read thread, please.[/QUOTE]

I love how you think you can weasel your way out of being wrong.

You can't.

I love how you dredge up fairly dead threads just because of some stupid personal vendetta you have on me.