I don't think there is any real solution. There never will be. As long as Israel exist's there will always be groups trying to destroy Israel. As long as Israel is being attacked, Israel will fight back viciously. It's a vicious cycle.

The UN, when it comes to peace keeping actions, is a band aid fix at best. They come in with troops, completely handcuff the troops in terms of engaging the enemy, which frusrates the hell out of the commanders. Then, when a few of the peace keeping troops are killed, the UN pulls out, leaving things the same way they were before they arrived, at best. There is no point in even going in if that's the best the UN can do. Unless they are willing to comitt to seeing the process all the way through to the end, I don't really want to see the UN do anything.

That's what they're aiming for this time around though.

Europe is very divided in this matter. The Dutch government (damn that bunch of monkeys) is counting on the US to intervene at some point. Personally, I think that's a pretty bad idea. Maybe the US would do a better job in disarming Hezbollah than the UN, but at the same time I think American involvement would greatly enhance the risk of serious escalation.

In any case, the killing of Lebanese civilians should stop. There's just no way they're going to take out Hezbollah like this, and the civilian death toll is going to be tremendous.

Oh god, don't even joke about the United States getting involved in this. Please.

It wasn't a joke. Several countries in Europe are looking towards the US to make a move.

I don't think we could physically support another war effort (without a draft), even if we wanted to. Fortunately we don't.

It's not much at all, basically it's a Sunni imam telling other Sunni's to condemn a Shi'ite group. Nothing new there.

Watching the news last night the Israelis were making ground-based incursions calling them "co-ordinated missions" and definitely not an invasion. I'm getting this suspicion that they more or less mean that. They stayed there for years till 2000 when they pulled out after suffering a daily grind of casualties. They're probably going to go in and kick arse invasion of Iraq style and as soon as they find their soldiers dead or alive, they'll pull out and leave Lebanon to pick itself up from the rubble rather than help it rebuild itself.

Actually, considering the number of targets Isreal has struck, it's amazing the numbers are so low. Isreal isn't aiming for Lebanon civilians; they are striking air ports, bridges, and the fuel infrastructure. They are trying to keep Iran from re-arming Hezzbullah.
Meanwhile, the terrorists are firing missles at small towns in northern Isreal that don't have any sort of military base or anything like that. They are firing their missles at women and children (And doing a pathetically poor job of hitting anything, at that).
Isreal fires to cripple their opponent so they can end the fighting as fast as possible.
Terrorists fire to kill as many Isreali as possible.

No one who claims we should 'negotiate' with these people understands how they think. You can't negotiate with someone who wants you dead.

Negotiator: Okay Mr. Terrorist, what do you want?
Mr. Terrorist: You and all your family to die.
Negotiator: Er... well... how about some land instead?
Mr. Terrorist: Will you die on it?
Negotiator: I wasn't planning to, no.
Mr. Terrorist: Fine, I will agree to your compromise, take the land, and then keep trying to kill you anyway.
Negotiator: Well, that would make the UN very upset...
Mr. Terrorist: I'm going to kill them too. They don't have the will to stop me. They won't understand me because I scare them. They don't want to admit that the world is a dangerous place, or that I am evil. They would rather blame the countries I bomb. They'll find some way to say it's their fault, and not mine, even while I'm shouting "I DID IT!"

I never said they should negotiate with Hezbollah. And I know Israel isn't purposely attacking civilians (although there have been some very questionable situations). I'm not 'blaming Israel instead of the terrorists', I'm just saying Israel is using excessive force, killing too many innocent civilians in the process.

The problem is, Hezbollah has its bases and headquarters in civilian areas. Lots of civilians are trapped there, because they have nowhere to go. If Israel chooses to take out those strongholds with missiles and bombardments, inevitably a large number of innocents will be killed. (Which is what's happening right now)

So, continuing like this is going to cost a lot of innocent lives.

Right now it looks like Israel is amassing ground troops to invade South Lebanon. As you can imagine, the Lebanese government isn't exactly looking forward to another period of Israeli occupation, and sees itself forced to send in the Lebanese army and attack the Israeli, if they invade. So, this could easily escalate.

That's why I said it's time for a ceasefire. Then, an international effort could be made to help the Lebanese government in disarming Hezbollah. Perhaps a UN effort (if they can somehow find a way to give such a peaceforce more 'real' power.), but if that won't work perhaps several independant countries could join forces and form an alternative 'international army' to do the job.

A cease-fire for Hezbollah is one thing: a chance to get more powerful weapons. You wouldn't get anywhere unless, as you said, someone takes them out or disarms them. However, finding someone to do that won't be very easy, as that would require the international community to move quickly, something that happens rarely.

So all we can do is sit back and watch humanitarian disaster unfold?

Depends on who is involved. If it's just taking out Hezbollah, there's no way a draft would be necessary. It would take an extreme case to demand a draft.



Let someone else handle it.

Really?!

[edit]

...

Oh wait, I forgot, we're still not talking about Lesbians...

Can someone shoot me a PM when/if the subject changes to this so I don't make this kind of mistake again? Thanks.

Did I mention that one of my contacts are blurry...

From what I've heard, Isreal doesn't plan to occupy Lebanon. They intend to take out the terrorists, then leave. It's unlikely that the Lebanese government would send their army against Isreal. They know they would be crushed, and then Isreal WOULD stick around afterwards. Unfortunatly, Hezzbullah has a lot of political power in Lebanon. That's most of the reason the Lebanese hadn't already dealt with them themselves.
However, the Lebanese military could change it's flag and go in supporting Hezzbullah, without the permission of it's government. If the Lebanese government really wanted to go to war with Isreal, their best option would be to make it seem like their military defected. That way they get their fight, without having to take the fall. But I find it hard to believe they want that. Remember, Isreal originally occupied southern Lebanon for eighteen years to maintain a fourty mile de-militarized zone. This was to keep the syrian army out as much as it was to keep Lebanon from renewing hostilities.
As soon as Isreal left Lebanon, the syrian army moved in, and so did the terrorists. Lebanon didn't get rid of the syrians until just last year. Hezzbullah filled that power vacume, and all they want to do is kill Jews.

All in all, I feel the best course of action for the USA is to stay out of it. Our country would not unite behind any campaign in Lebanon, and a country devided cannot fight an effective war. As long as the people of Isreal are united in support of their government's actions, we should let them go. They are the strongest nation in the region, military wise. The more they take out now, the less we have to deal with later.

I find it interesting that when the rest of the world wants something done, it's almost automatically the responsibility of the United States, especially if it's a dirty job. However, when the U.S. wants to do something, even if they're justified in their actions, it's almost automatically condemned.

On the subject of Lebanon, Israel has repeatedly warned civilians to leave areas that are going to be attacked. Repeatedly. They're making an effort to minimize casualtied for both sides, and yet it's Israel that is condemned for doing what they feel necessary to protect their own people. Listen to the American news media. Will you hear condemnation of Hezbollah? No. Israel? In almost every news report, Israel will be villified for killing innocent civilians.

Expecting that UN involvement will improve the situation is laughable. The United Nations has proved, time and again, that they are an incompetent, spineless organization that lacks both political and moral authority. Dictators and terrorists around the world laugh in the UN's face, and the UN is powerless to do anything about them.

How to resolve the situation, then? The UN can't do anything about it. The U.S. shouldn't, quite honestly. The fact of the matter is that there is no quick fix for the Middle East. This isn't just about Israel v. Hezbollah/Lebanon. The conflict between Jew, Arab, and Christian has been raging for centuries. Before any lasting solution to the current problem can be found, a solution to the underlying problem must be implemented. And there's simply no way to heal age-old divides in a matter of weeks.

Further, if there is going to be a solution, the world needs to keep their noses out of it. Most of these countries that constantly try to play peacemaker, including the U.S., can't even solve their own problems. What makes them think that they can solve someone else's? Especially when the solutions that they want have nothing to do with the actual situation, but with their outsider's perspective, and their own desires and agendas. Offering aid is one thing, but the world community has this bad habit of trying to force everything to work their way, and they have an even worse tendency to screw up big time.

I really am a lesbian.

Exactly. Perfectly said.

I hope you're joking. We have a ton of forces that are not in use right now.

I agree, it's ridiculous that so many countries are expecting the US to take the lead in this and do something.

Also, I'm not talking about a final solution for the entire area. I am well aware of the age-old difficult situation between Arabs, Jews and Christians in the Middle East. It's practically unsolvable.

All that I'm saying is, the Lebanese population shouldn't be paying the toll for this situation. After years and years of war and occupation, the country has finally been rebuilt. The Lebanese economy is just about back on its feets again, and now this... it's a disaster.

The thing is, they won't be able to solve this problem quickly. A lot of people seem to be assuming that it's just a couple of days more bombing before Hezbollah has been taken care of. I'm afraid it's just not going to be that simple. The longer this situation lasts, the bigger the humanitarian crisis will become.

One could think 'oh well, some civilian casualties', but I've seen the reports on TV. For every news item about Israeli rockets hitting a bus full of children, Hezbollah gains more and more support from the Lebanese people. Doesn't matter whether the attacks were on purpose or not.

Also, Isuwen, I wasn't speculating. The Lebanese government has specifically stated that the army won't stand back and watch the Israeli march into south Lebanon. Unless it's big talk, of course. In any case, it'll complicate the situation.

I've yet to see any solid evidence that there is a Lebanese army. I'm not being flippant either, I'm entirely serious. If Lebanon had an army worth speaking of, and if they were as sincere as you think they are, they'd have stopped Hezbollah themselves by now, rather than leave the mess for Israel to clean up.

Well said.

Why should other nations get involved? It doesn't involve them, and it doesn't need to. Israel is responding to attacks against itself. Last time we got attacked by Arabs, we invaded two Middle Eastern countries, one of which had no ties to the attack. And what is the UN going to do? Anything they do do is guaranteed to be a hopelessly unsupported token operation that will only make things worse. Almost everyone there is a bunch of corrupt, hypocritical gasbags. Diplomats are sent to give asinine justifications for what ever crap their nation has done. It's like a monument to politicians' tendencies to pretend some grand idea is working, long after any idiot can see that it has failed.

Okay, okay. What the hell? The odds of me completely agreeing with Avenger are astronomically low. But with JediGandalf? Even lower. But to agree, totally, with even a single statement from both of them in the same thread? I'm still not sure I believe it myself.

It's a once in a blue moon kind of thing.

I tend to agree with both 95% of the time.

Once I just said "Whatever Avenger says, is what my stance is on it too for now on".

:O

I remember that one political map where all the Massassians are listed on there, JediGandalf and I as points produce the longest line segment.

You, me and JG should start a club.

That would be nice. Unfortunatly, it's the terrorists that get us involved, by flying airplanes into buildings and blowing the hell out of trains in Spain, England and India. Is the world supposed to just sit back and let the middle east blow them up while they 'sort out their problems'? This isn't just the middle east's problem, this is the whole world's problem. The terrorists don't want to just drive the infidels from their homelands, they want to kill all of us. They want anyone who doesn't subscribe to their world view, including other muslims, to die.

We can make another one. Heres where I go.

***********************************************************[Isuwen]*

Yeah, yeah, nice words and all. But it's nothing more than a basic analysis of the situation, and its conclusion boils down to:

- There is no solution, and too bad about the civilian casualties.

Which is something I cannot agree with. Once more, I am -not- villifying Israel instead of Hezbollah. I'm just saying they could do a LOT more to minimize civilian casualties. Again I repeat: the vast majority of casualties is civilian. There has been very little success in hurting Hezbollah. Several reports of terrorist bunkers being destroyed turned out to be false, and in reality Mosques and other civilian targets were hit. To hit Hezbollah more precisely, they should stop the bombing and go in there on foot. Problem with that is, South Lebanon might end up being occupied once more. That's why I'm in favour of an international effort to disarm Hezbollah.

The fact that the Lebanese army doesn't do anything about Hezbollah is simply because they really can't. Hezbollah is the only true military power in Lebanon. So, I'm absolutely not expecting the Lebanese army to cause the Israeli a lot of problems, but in any case, it's a complication.

Now that I've sobered up some...

I think there is a solution, but I do not believe it's going to come from nations outside the middle-east (i.e. US and EU). These guys are going to solve this on their own. Other nations start mucking around and you'll get that "favortism" feeling. "Yeah well America likes me BETTER!" "Oh yeah? Well France, Germany, and Italy like ME even BETTER!"

Cardiosangrism (bleeding heart, yay made up words!) doesn't always make the problem better.

Precisely. The world is more than capable of offering the Lebanese people aid, and they should. What they should not do is go their usual route of butting in and telling Israel to do things their way, or else. While, I might add, completely ignoring the fact that Hezbollah is the cause of the problem, not Israel.

I hear sources across the news media and the Internet decrying Israel's aggression, and disregard for the innocent people of Lebanon. But what about the innocent Israelis who are dying every day, whenever Hezbollah or another terrorist organization decides to lob a few rockets into Israel? Never a word about them. Just damnation to the Israelis for trying to protect their own people, whose only crime is that they wanted their homeland back half a century ago.

The solution must come from within. People are going to die, regardless of whether or not you agree with it. Ideally, Israel and Lebanon would work together to destroy Hezbollah. Ideally, all of the Middle East's problems would be solved without bloodshed. Idealism doesn't work. Each person, each political group, each religion, each nation involved has their own agendas, their own desires, and for too many of them, there is simply no compromise.

I don't want to see innocents die any more than anyone else does, on either side. But ultimately, it's not under our control, or that of the international community. It's up to those directly involved. They have to want a solution, and if they don't, no amount of political or economic pressure, no sanctions, censures, condemnations or outright punishements will solve anything.

They could make some effort instead of sitting on their asses. And coming out and saying "We'll fight the Israeli army if they invade but we won't do anything about the terrorist group operating within our borders" is completely hypocritical. The Lebanese Army working with the Israeli would go a long way to smoothing things out. Also, shame on Lebabnon for letting Hezbollah become such a power with in their borders.

Shame on Lebanon?

Maybe you need to know some of the history of Hezzbullah.

They were formed by Iran in the 80s as a resistence group to the Isreali occupation of Lebanon. There was no Lebanese government at the time. When Isreal left, Syria moved in, and supported Hezzbullah directly. When Syria finally left, and a real Lebanese government was set up, Hezzbullah was already the most powerful entity in the state. They won, by democratic election, seats in the Lebanese congress. And Iran continued to support them.

No, the Lebanese government (that which isn't also Hezzbullah) can't be blamed for this. The ones to blame are the terrorists. You can't justify bad behavior with other bad behavior. The Isreali occupation of Lebanon does not justify the incursion by Hezzbullah onto Isreali soil, the murder of eight soldiers, nor the kidnapping of two more. All this 'It's not really their fault they blew up children because...' bull**** needs to end. Now.

If this had happened in reverse, and some Isreali had murdered Lebanese soldiers, you know damn well the world would be screaming for Isreali blood.

Complacency in a situation like this is completely unacceptable on Lebanon's part.

This would be true if anything even remotely resembling a real Lebanese government had existed when Hezbollah was coming to power. Remember that as Isuwen pointed out, Syria had occupied Lebanon until very recently, and they not only accepted the existence of Hezbollah, they actively encouraged it. It's Iran and Syria that are at fault for the current situation, not Lebanon -- they're hostages in their own country.

This isn't to say that Lebanon shouldn't do everything they can to get rid of Hezbollah now, but it's not their fault that they're severely limited in what they can do.

I understand that, but they shouldn't be sitting on their hands. They should take advantage of the opportunity that's presented itself.

What opportunity?

To work with Israel to get rid of a big terrorist group. from with in their borders.

To take out Hezbollah, Israel can come in from the south and the rest of the Lebanese army can help defeat it from the north.