I'm an atheist, I see no more reason to believe in any sort of deity than there is to believe in fairies and invisible pink unicorns. I also don't see why, if there was a god, he'd be so particularly interested in the daily happenings of a bunch of largely hairless bipedal apes.

Personally I feel religion is there to comfort people; something huge is out there that actually gives a crap about you, death isn't the end for you and life could be even better on the other side, it can give you a sense of belonging with others and when circumstances are bad, don't worry, it's God's plan! Damn I wish I could believe all that but that requires faith, needing you to drop your rationality for a bit and accept some fairly far-fetched things, something I can't do.

I'm an atheist. Because I just never bought into that deity nonsense.

If I may, does science explain why the Big Bang happened?

Pretty much, yeah. It's called the chaos theory. I don't need any deeper meaning to it than that, just as I don't need a deeper meaning for, say, the color of grass.

I could be wrong, but if I remember rightly, chaos theory doesn't explain what may have caused the big bang. To my knowledge there is no definitive scientific answer as of yet, and in fact there's a chance we may never know. That doesn't mean that the logical conclusion should be "God did it".

HEY GUYS WE'RE GONNA HAVE A DEBATE BY THE END OF THIS THREAD/PAGE

I just thought it was the moment for Captain Obvious.

You should all become taoists. It is most refreshing. And does not prevent you from still being Christian, or Muslim, or Pagan, or even athiest.

The way is everything. The way is nothing.
Through the way, all things are done.

Can you explain how that works? I'm kind of guessing at this, but it seems like whatever Chaos Theory is it's only one possible explanation for why everything happens that can't really be proved or disproved (or at least that it's explanation of the Big Bang can't be), making it another kind of religous belief.

If I'm completely off the mark, let me know.

I believe that there is at least one creator. I would also like to point out that people who aren't open-minded about the mere possibility of a creator are themselves being illogical. Do you believe in a self-contained universe? It's fine to be skeptical regarding the possibility of something existing outside of our universe or our realm of existence, but to pretend as if we know for sure is just plain arrogant and illogical.

Seconded.

Sure there's a chance that a supernatural God exists but it is not logical to assume that existence. Every supernatural being that mankind has come up with (eg the FSM) has just as much validity so if you assume the existence of God you may as well assume the existence of all the others.
Most people are atheists in regards to the deities of every religion other than their own, some of us go one further.

But one does not assume god exists. One reacts to personal spiritual experiences that lead one to believe god exists.

I'm more agnostic than atheist, but I'll go with atheist. Let's say, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a god after all, but I don't need to believe in a god to lead a moral life.

What I hate about Christianity is that you have to believe in order to deserve an eternal afterlife. I think that's just stupid. In my opinion, free will means you can be a non-believer and still be a good person.

Christianity says an atheist (whether he's a moral person or not is irrelevant) is not worthy of an afterlife, but a believer who spends his life raping choirboys goes to heaven.



Don't get me wrong, I think every soul has a right to redemption, but why exclude the righteous from that, and for the wrong reasons?

I don't profess to know either way, so I consider myself a cheerful agnostic.

Ignostic. I don't believe or disbelieve in God/a higher power, and I don't think it really makes any difference. I'll be living my life to the best of my ability, treading on other peoples' toes as little as possible. And yes, using ig- instead of ag- makes me feel special

It's because you have to accept Jesus to be allowed into heaven - it's a gift that you have to choose to receive.

(I had a very long chat to someone who actually knew the ins and outs and this is my watered down conclusion - it was the best religious discussion ever, I found things out!)

I'm not sure about other branches of Christianity, but a believer who sins and does not repent will not get into heaven.

Yeah, I understand the line of thinking behind it (My parents are Christians), I just think it's all warped.

I don't like being scared into believing, whether it's on purpose or not. Christianity just makes me go "Whoa, I better believe in Jesus, or I'm dead!"

That's just wrong.

.

Although I'm not voting, because I'm not "YES TEHRE'S A GOD" or "GOD IS A HOAX", I'm in the middle, really.

Atheist. I just cant believe in something because an old book tells me to.

I would freely accept "the gift of Jesus" if I were face-to-face with it. But as it is right now, it's like accepting a present from someone who's dead - it's never going to happen - because they're dead.

It seems a little odd to me that the whole deal of Christianity is conveniently about 2000 years ago, nothing has been added since. Why did the people living 2000 years ago get a bunch of miracles to convince them, and all we get is a questionable written account? Or, now that Christianity is global it's easy to be made aware of Jesus, but what about immediately after the rules had been made and it was still just a small religion? The people living in Australia back then never had a chance.

I used to call myself a Christian but I never really believed in anything, it was like a story that I went along with because it sounded nice and I wanted to be involved. I've never had any compelling reason to see it as more than a story, whether it be a subjective reason or an objective one.

I fully agree here.

The Catholic Church agrees with this.

(And in agreement of both ORJ and SMOCK's statements) I believe morals are more important than what one believes (acts over thoughts, sort of, to some degree). If you do not believe, but live as a good person, I think you are more likely to benefit in some afterlife than a believing sinner.
This is also a general case -- other factors contribute as well that could either shift or strengthen this balance.

Right, let's just make sure that everyone knows that not all Christian religions agree with that.

I have yet to see a truly compelling or logical argument for either case. Neither case has much (or any) factual data, as much as atheists or theists would like to argue.

I find that faith in a supreme being is much easier to hold than faith in an eons long process of trial an error. I have never seen order come from disorder. I have lived through dozens of earthquakes and fires, and have yet to see anything improve from them. After an earthquake, my garage is never neater than it was before. How then can disorder (chaos, the primordial soup, big bang, etc.) produce order? It makes no logical sense.

Granted, there is also no logic in proclaiming "There is a God, just because", but I find that it's easier to believe that there (or at least was) is a force crafting events, rather than a series of events crafting themelves.

The problem with looking at it that way is that you're saying god crafted itself.

You're relying on something coming from nothing either way. You are still saying "God exists just because". By your own logic, something can't come from nothing and needs to be created. Therefore, by the same logic, god must also have been created by a higher power.

Also, how can you argue there is little or no factual data? Atheists (generally) support their arugument using evolution. For which there is a plethora or evidence for. There is 100% more evidence of evolution than there is for god because there is 0 evidence for God so even a tiny amount of evidiece for evolution makes it more logically valid.

Evolution only negates the existance of God if you take the Bible absolutely literally, which is not necessarily a tenet of all Christianity.

Exactly the point. It's as illogical to assume that he exists as it is that he doesn't. No one knows. People who assume are simply too arrogant or biased to be logical. I believe that it's more likely that there's at least one creator, but I don't know that there is.





Many Christians believe that free will is merely an illusion. This is based upon the assumption that their god knows everything, therefore there must be a predefined path for all of us. You must also understand that you opinion regarding what's "good" and what is not, may be different than the opinion of the Christian god. If there is a creator, in a sense, the human opinion could possibly be worthless. It would be up to the creator(s) to decide what's "wrong" and what's "right".



I would also like to point out that many Christians believe that it's not a choice. That their god chose his subjects before they were born.



Christianity is as diverse as any other religion. Many Christians believe that even non-Christians can enter the so-called "Kingdom Of Heaven" if they've lived a good life. However, you're correct for the most part.



Many of us who believe in a creator don't follow any book. I like to think that my belief in the creators comes from logical possibilities and observation.

I agree with Steven, to an extent.

I find it irritating that people always have to go and ruin a good atheist/theist thread by bringing up religion. It's almost as if people are incapable of understanding that there's an underlying logical debate and that religion tends to get in the way of that.

That's absurd!
Would it be equally logical to believe that theres a world war 2 submarine floating around in space as it is to assume theres not.

Would it be logical to assume that dinosaurs had cars and space ships because we cant prove they diddnt?

Is it logical to assume I have a pet fire breathing dragon because I say so and you can't prove otherwise?



You seem to be unable to grasp a basic understanding of logic though.



True, but if you dont then removing god from the equation all together makes no difference to the result, rendering god pointless.

You can't know if there is or is not using logic. Assuming that there is no god is equivalent to assuming that there is a submarine in space, just as it is equivalent to assuming that there is no submarine. Likelihood is not proof.


Religion deals with a lot more than how humans were created.

No, the logical assumption is 'no' because you'd need to look further into the question and ask yourself 'Is it possible? If so how did it get there? Is there any empirical evidence?' then after answering those, come up with the most likely answer. Saying 'Yes' to the submarine example would be ilogical because there is no reasoning behind it.



Of course, but we're not dealing with religion we're discussing the existance of god.

If you want to turn this into a flame war you started out the right way. Thanks for suggesting that my personal beliefs are a result of brainwashing.

Now wait, I'm going to get into this:

It is very illogical to assume that there is no creator, I'll agree 10 fold.

1. It's illogical to assume that this creator is a being of any kind.
2. It's illogical to assume that this creator has morals like love, honesty, and not having sex with someone of the same sex.
3. It's illogical to assume that this creator has a sex.
4. It's illogical to assume that this creator, while initially exploding billions of atoms and causing the big bang (Which is proven, but does not disprove a creator) has a magical invisable hand at which he scoops down and fixes your broken bones, or your bad day at work because you closed your eyes and asked him too.
5. It's illogical to assume that we, as human beings, are this creator's particular and special creation.
6. It's illogical to assume that this creator can whisk away your conscience and place it in a different place this creator created that, unlike that other place created: Is perfect.
7. It's illogical to assume that a book with the accounts of a man among many men who claimed they were sons of this creator is a book that is suggested morals by this creator.
8. It's illogical to assume that this creator was even conscience of creating our universe itself. We create ecosystems daily in what we do.

Sure, it's illogical to throw out the idea of a creator, but then again, it's illogical to find the existance of a creator such a pivitol, and life controlling experience. You're slightly advanced sun worshipers, just far more ambiguous. Your saying that there's a creator is as simple as saying that there's a Sun. It's the meaning in that statement that gets ME hung up.

If your parents took you to church, sent you to Sunday school, and taught you to believe in god, then yes, you were brainwashed. You probably didn't choose the majority of your beliefs, they were forced upon you. Just like mine were when I was a kid, and so many billions of people. That, above all else, is what I hate about Christianity.

It makes no logical sense to you because you do not understand the science behind such arguments or refuse them completely. And who said anything about order? What makes our universe so great? It's probably a fluke that life started at all on this planet.

Just because you felt brainwashed, doesn't mean that everyone was. I'm sorry you didn't feel like you were in control of your religous beliefs as a child, but your experience does not equate to the experiences of everyone else. I was raised in a Christain home, and I came out of that experience a Christian, but I never felt like it was forced upon me. I made a decision several years ago to follow Christ. While it was certainly influenced by my surroundings (and no one can honestly say that their decisions are not influenced as such), it was my own decision.

Don't project your own shortcomings on everyone else.

Points 2 (kind of), 3, 4, 5, 7 I can agree.

1.
Why do you say that the "creator" cannot be a being of any kind?

6.
Who says that a "heaven" cannot exist? There might very well be ascended Ancients or some type

8.
You mean that our existance (assuming creator is true) is nothing but an accident?
"****. I gave my experiment too much juice...but hey! I created another universe. This'll get me that A for sure."

The sign of a good brainwashing!

No one probably wants these to turn into flamewars but it is INEVITABLE.

Emon, you're welcome to beleive that if you want, but don't make blanket comments about everyone else based on your own life experiences. That's all I'm saying.

Precisely.