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ForumsDiscussion Forum → A real debate
12
A real debate
2004-07-20, 3:24 PM #41
Mr. Speaker.

However dubious, I shall accept your statistic as being well-researched and accurate. I should expect no less from a reliable source such as yourself.

What you fail to elaborate on is what exactly those crimes are?

Criminals are not just random people lurking around the neighbourhood looking for a house to break into.

The man that shoots the windowcleaner thinking he was an assailant, he is a criminal.

The man that accidentally shoots his wife while cleaning his firearm, he is a criminal.

The man who leaves his gun cupboard unlocked thus allowing his son to commit suicide, he is a criminal*.

Even the man that shoots a guy breaking into his house, he is a criminal.

They are all criminals.

But as for those robbers that do break into your house and do have a gun, the question is where did they get that gun? Did they buy it from some black market stall in a dark alleyway from a tall man with a bushy beard and a large coat? Or did he walk into a Wall-Mart and buy one over the counter?

That man is not a criminal until he uses the gun to shoot you with it.

If gun controls were tighter, he would not have the gun at all.

Would he go to the bother of visiting the bearded man in the dark alley? Probably not, unless he specifically was out to murder you. In all likelyhood, he probably just got into a fit of anger and rage and fury and decided to kill you using the gun he had at home, perfectly legally.

Would some criminals still visit the bushy man on the black market stall? Certainly. The next step is of course to investigate where the illegal firearms are coming from.
As possession of a firearm would be totally illegal, anyone in possession would be arrested. This way, you would arrest the man before he commits the crime. Instead of arresting murderers, you're arresting people with guns.

This "fight fire with fire" vigilante attitute is not a sustainable or a sensible long-term option.

It does not make sense for the government to have a policy to expect citizens to protect themselves. The government should be protecting them.
This is like the government scrapping fire fighters and expecting citizens to put out their own fires and rescue their own cats, or closing down hospitals and expecting citizens to perform their own open-heart surgery.

And I do believe Mr. Kirby has addressed the point of firearms making a household only more dangerous.

*possibly.

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited July 20, 2004).]
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-07-20, 3:34 PM #42
I shall attempt to elaborate on my rather ambiguous previous statment. the fact i ment to bring to bear was that of the criminals arrested for illegal activities being performed in anoutehr's home, these being anything from robbery to murder to very badly localized drug dealing, 90% were found to be carry guns. I am sorry for the missaprehention.

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"No good can ever come from staying with normal people"
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-DX:IW
A Knight's Tail
Exile: A Tale of Light in Dark
The Never Ending Story²[/i]

[This message has been edited by Noble Outlaw (edited July 20, 2004).]
A Knight's Tail
Exile: A Tale of Light in Dark
The Never Ending Story²
"I consume the life essence itself!... Preferably medium rare" - Mauldis

-----@%
2004-07-20, 3:47 PM #43
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Noble Outlaw:
I point you to the fact that 90%** of criminals in the United States of America use a gun in thier illegal activities

**Just to ask, are the 'facts' we're using, especially percents, actually real? if so.. uh.. ignore that <.< >.>

</font>


Actually, 91% is the correct number of people murdered in 2002, and the numbers keep rising. You were close enough.

JediKirby

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jEDIkIRBY - Putting the Romance back into Necromancer.
Proud Leader of the Minnessassian Council

Live on, Adam.
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
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2004-07-20, 3:58 PM #44
*And to the surprise of all, enter the Sok Munkey* Fellow Massassians, we look at guns as evil. In truth, anything is a weapon. It is the person and the motive that makes it dangerous. We DO need to see that because people are killed with guns, putting stricter laws on firearms will only deprive the average American from safety and/or personal enjoyment they possibly enjoy in sport shooting. Making laws does not fix the problem. Finding the influence that causes the murderous action and removing it from society is the only way to truly be rid of it. If one is to pull the weed, he must remove it's proverbial roots.
"I'm interested in the fact that the less secure a person is, the more likely it is for that person to have extreme prejudices." -Clint Eastwood
2004-07-20, 4:17 PM #45
It has disturbed my mind, reviewing the educated discussion, that you believe making guns illegal will eliminate our gun problem. Guns will always find a way into our country, just as drugs do. strict gun laws only slits our own throats. If a real criminal wants a gun, he will find one, whilst the respectable citizen (such as ourselves) cannot buy a gun. What is one to do when trouble knocks on our door? close our eyes and pretend that it isn't happening? If we intend to defend ourselves and the ones we love, strict gun laws will only cut off the hand holding the gun. Our society will become lambs to the slaughter of the kind that are able to buy a firearm.
Might I remind this comitee, "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." Let us not gouge our eyes out for the sake of a "gun free" society.
"I'm interested in the fact that the less secure a person is, the more likely it is for that person to have extreme prejudices." -Clint Eastwood
2004-07-20, 5:18 PM #46
SPR

[Single Point Rule. please follow it guys. I'm dropping out of the argument until the next topic, this is getting too difficult to follow due to the lack in single topics]

JediKirby

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jEDIkIRBY - Putting the Romance back into Necromancer.
Proud Leader of the Minnessassian Council

Live on, Adam.
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
ᴸᶥᵛᵉ ᴼᵑ ᴬᵈᵃᵐ
2004-07-21, 2:41 AM #47
It's a nice thought, Sok, of the random criminal wandering around menacingly looking for anyone to shoot.

The reality is that that simply doesn't happen. Having a gun in the house only makes it more likely that you'll be killed by a gunshot wound. An awful lot of gun crimes are accidental (that is, manslaughter and not murder). Let's look at Europe, which has very tight gun laws. Europeans have no need to have a gun the house to feel safe. Are all the Europeans being slaughtered by evil men with guns?
No.
And Europe also has a significantly lower gun crime rate too.
The average Joe doesn't have a gun, but neither does the criminal.

Criminals are not necessarily guys wandering around looking for a crime to commit.

A bloke comes home and finds his wife sleeping with his best friend. He has a gun in the drawer, he takes it out and shoots them both.

These sorts of crimes would not occur at all.

Yes, you will quote Canada as having a lower gun crime rate too but with similar gun laws. Yes, the Canadian way works (whatever that is), but the European way works too. The point is, America has to go either of those ways. Staying as it is and not changing at all is not an option. America has a problem and Canada and Europe both offer two different solutions. Which to choose?


And as I said previously, it does not make sense for a government policy to be saying that citizens should be doing their own policework.


I don't know about you, but I'm getting the feeling this discussion has been exhausted, as I'm more or less repeating myself here.

Is the House supposed to reach a conclusion before moving onto a different topic? If so, my vote goes to "yes" on tighter gun laws.

[I do think it'd be cool if we could have some different, interesting debates in this, and not hash up the same old 'abortion', 'gay marriage', 'God exists' type topics]
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-07-21, 2:53 AM #48
Once again i hearby declare the discussion closed and put forward a new motion.

Ladies and Gentleman, as it was mentioned in the post before and i believe this could be funny, we put forward the age old question, Does god exist?

I shall not comment and leave the opening statement to another talented speaker
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If you can read this you don't need glasses

[This message has been edited by Boco (edited July 21, 2004).]
nope.
2004-07-21, 4:04 AM #49
:-(
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-07-21, 5:01 AM #50
For 1, you're not the topic starter, so why should you get to halt the discussion? Secondly, that's not a debate topic.

If a new topic is chosen, I present the following: "Should search and seizure apply to a school setting?"

Neg Arguments:

1. Random Locker Searches are a violation of privacy.

2. Random Drug Tests are also a violation of privacy.

3. Schools should be required to pre-notify students of locker searches, and drug tests.

Choose an argument, and go. I'll take the aff side with any of this.

JediKirby

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jEDIkIRBY - Putting the Romance back into Necromancer.
Proud Leader of the Minnessassian Council

Live on, Adam.
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
ᴸᶥᵛᵉ ᴼᵑ ᴬᵈᵃᵐ
2004-07-21, 5:08 AM #51
I wasn't being serious

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If you can read this you don't need glasses
nope.
2004-07-21, 5:52 AM #52
Most esteemed Mr. Kirby, I implore you to re-evaluate your position. Lockers are school property, being at best "rented" out to students with the purpose of harboring school-related items that are too numerous or bulky to transport on their persons for any extended period of time. Should the school choose to search these lockers for illegal items, that is their right and duty. If the students are storing drugs, firearms, etc on-campus, the School is right to take measures to prevent this. Thank you ladies and gentlemen. The floor is open.

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

Banks and banks of humming machinery! I've never seen so many knobs. We're going to have to do something, Charlie! Try pushing that button there. No? How about that one? No, not that one either. I know! I'll try pushing this one. Hold my hat will you? Good fellow.
2004-07-21, 6:45 AM #53
I feel I must not only agree with the good fellow Thrawn, but further the policies alrady in place: I do not believe that school search and seizure policy goes far enough. I feel that should students be searched and illegal items be found, the children should be taken outside and soundly beaten, until they realise that school rules are there for the saftety of the students - as such, breaking the rules leads to broken limbs!

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.
2004-07-21, 6:56 AM #54
It is being planned to have random urine samples in colleges in Britain (the equivilant of high-school, to an extent) to check for drugs. In some places it has been implemented, and it has only created a market for clean urine with people selling capsules of urine in toilets across the college.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-07-21, 7:00 AM #55
(Aside from the debate - Really?! I hadn't heard about that! I suppose I left college 3 years ago, but still... I bet it's the really nerdy lads finally getting their own back on the cool kids by selling them clean piss...!)

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.
2004-07-21, 1:02 PM #56
While lockers may be public domain, parents pay taxes that pay for those lockers, making the child a kin owner. The student should have due notice of locker investigations in-case a student were to keep personal and private documents, or such in their locker. A student of a religion not tolerated in her community may be whitness to religious persecution due to a religious reading or symbol displayed in their locker.

[I'd like to note I'm all for s&s, I'm just debating the off-hand because it's fun]

JediKirby

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jEDIkIRBY - Putting the Romance back into Necromancer.
Proud Leader of the Minnessassian Council

Live on, Adam.
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
ᴸᶥᵛᵉ ᴼᵑ ᴬᵈᵃᵐ
12

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