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ForumsDiscussion Forum → True random number generator goes online
True random number generator goes online
2007-07-18, 7:27 PM #1
Quote:
A 'true' random number generator that relies on the unpredictable quantum process of photon emission has gone online providing academic and scientific community access to true random numbers free of charge.


Full article here, and actual site of the Quantum Random Bit Generator Service here.

Aww, no more of the first day of Comp Sci (Matlab) class where the professor says, "For those of you who are following along on your laptops and got the same random number I just did, don't be alarmed."
"Flowers and a landscape were the only attractions here. And so, as there was no good reason for coming, nobody came."
2007-07-18, 7:38 PM #2
That has nothing on the RandomNumberGod.
2007-07-18, 7:42 PM #3
Funny; I thought there were already chips that would do this; figured someone would have hooked it up to the internet by now.

In any case, aren't there random number programs that use variations in hard drive temperatures and network traffic and such to generate "real" random numbers (not that anything would be quite as random as quantum of course...)

Then there's the venerable Lava Lamp Random Number website. http://www.lavarnd.org/
Stuff
2007-07-18, 7:52 PM #4
I don't think random is impossible with current machines. They just need external data to operate on. Of course it depends on what you mean by "random".
2007-07-18, 9:38 PM #5
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
I don't think random is impossible with current machines. They just need external data to operate on.
Traditional random number generators rely on external data too for the seed.

On topic, that is really cool. I wonder if science will one day find this method isn't truly random either.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2007-07-19, 7:49 AM #6
Nice find.
2007-07-19, 7:53 AM #7
Originally posted by Freelancer:
Traditional random number generators rely on external data too for the seed.

On topic, that is really cool. I wonder if science will one day find this method isn't truly random either.


My thoughts exactly.
"The only crime I'm guilty of is love [of china]"
- Ruthven
me clan me mod
2007-07-19, 9:44 AM #8
Originally posted by tinny:
My thoughts exactly.


Well, this is precisely the issue that Einstein, Dirac, Bohr, Heisenburg and others were discussing around the 1920s. It was very much the 'hot topic' of the day.

Why does there appear to be a necessary incompleteness, a randomness, in every physical system?

Could it be that there is some deeper, more powerful theory at work? Some theory that involves hidden variables that work a classical, deterministic way and yet still agrees with the probabilistic results of quantum mechanics?

The answer is no, and the reason is by something called Bell's theorem. I can try and explain it in fairly simple terms, but bear in mind there's a lot I'm leaving out..

Anovis and Bobbert are doing an experiment on some particle which is either :eek: or :gbk: depending on the angle at which you look at it.

Some source emits entagled pairs of these particles, so if you look at them from the same angle they will both look the same. The two are sent in opposite directions.

Anovis has a detector at one end of the room, Bobbert has a detector at the other end of the room. The detectors tell whether the particle is :eek: or :gbk:, and the detectors are independent of eachother.
Anovis and Bobbert randomly rotate their detectors at one of three angles, after every time the source emits a particle. Because the particles are entagled, Anovis and Bobbert will report the same thing every time they happen to be at the same angle. Also, Anovis and Bobbert will measure the same thing for half of all runs when their detectors are set arbitrarily and independently to one of the three angles.

Suppose there is a particle that looks :eek: from angles 1 and 2, and :gbk: from angle 3.
Anovis and Bobbert will both observe the same thing when:
- Anovis is at angle 1, and Bobbert is at angle 1.
- Anovis is at angle 2, and Bobbert is at angle 2.
- Anovis is at angle 1, and Bobbert is at angle 2.
- Anovis is at angle 2, and Bobbert is at angle 1.
- Anovis is at angle 3, and Bobbert is at angle 3.

There are five different configurations for Anovis and Bobbert to observe the same thing.

Anovis will observe :gbk: and Bobbert will observe :eek: when:
- Anovis is at angle 3, and Bobbert is at angle 1.
- Anovis is at angle 3, and Bobbert is at angle 2.
- Anovis is at angle 1, and Bobbert is at angle 3.
- Anovis is at angle 2, and Bobbert is at angle 3.

There are four different configurations for Anovis and Bobbert to observe different things.

So, with Anovis and Bobbert randomly rotating their detectors to one of three angles, the probability of them observing the same thing is 5/9.

Now, remember that Anovis and Bobbert can only measure one angle at a time, and what they learn from one angle cannot tell them what they will observe from another. So there are only two pieces of information learnt (one from each particle), out of a possible three (three angles). The one unobserved value is the hidden variable.

So, with this (classical, deterministic) hidden variable, the proportion of times the detectors measure the same shape must be greater than 5/9.

However, Quantum Mechanics predicts that the same shape occurs only 1/2 of the time.

So Quantum Mechanics and 'local hidden variable' theory are incompatable. This was, for a long time, seen as a weakness in Quantum Mechanics - but after copious experimental work, it is found that Quantum Mechanics is correct. In fact, Quantum Mechanics is the most experimentally verified theory ever. There are no 'hidden variables'.

The random, probabilistic nature that Quantum Mechanics predicts and experimentalists have confirmed must be due to something else..
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2007-07-19, 10:18 AM #9
Interestingly IIRC Einstein had a big problem with the randomness of quantum mechanics. He could not accept it because he said, "God does not play with dice."
"Flowers and a landscape were the only attractions here. And so, as there was no good reason for coming, nobody came."
2007-07-19, 10:31 AM #10
I thought he didn't believe in God.
2007-07-19, 10:42 AM #11
Einstein used "God" to refer to parts of the universe which were unknown.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2007-07-19, 11:06 AM #12
No, he didn't.

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings." - Einstein
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2007-07-19, 11:08 AM #13
Why do scientists need random numbers anyway?
2007-07-19, 11:09 AM #14
Einstein also had an issue with quantum entanglement, which he called "spooky action at a distance."

As with a lot of things, Einstein was wrong. Quantum mechanics was, and still is, very much right.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2007-07-19, 11:12 AM #15
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Why do scientists need random numbers anyway?


Taking samples of from a statistical study. If there is any systematic pattern in the numbers, the samples will not be random. This might skew the study.

Also cryptography. And lots of other things, probably. Like mp3 shuffle functions.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2007-07-19, 11:15 AM #16
Supposedly there are companies that sell whole DVDs with random numbers (or rather just one very large random number).
Sorry for the lousy German
2007-07-19, 1:05 PM #17
Originally posted by Mort-Hog:
No, he didn't.

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings." - Einstein

I thought Spinoza's God was "the universe" or something?

Originally posted by Mort-Hog:
And lots of other things, probably. Like mp3 shuffle functions.

There is absolutely no need for true random numbers for MP3 shuffle. Pseudorandom numbers are fine, developers of music players just need to learn not to use the same seed over and over again.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2007-07-19, 1:11 PM #18
:eng101:

Quote:
From Wikipedia

Spinoza argued that God and Nature were two names for the same reality, namely the single substance (meaning "to stand beneath" rather than "matter") that underlies the universe and of which all lesser "entities" are actually modes or modifications, that all things are determined by Nature to exist and cause effects, and that the complex chain of cause and effect are only understood in part.
Cordially,
Lord Tiberius Grismath
1473 for '1337' posts.
2007-07-19, 1:17 PM #19
So, I was right. :colbert:
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2007-07-19, 1:29 PM #20
Indeed you were. :] In Spinoza's pantheistic view, God reveals Himself in "the orderly harmony of what exists" because he is what exists, i.e. the universe itself.
Cordially,
Lord Tiberius Grismath
1473 for '1337' posts.

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