Getting back to Ron Paul...One of my suitemates is a big Paul supporter, and went to his rally in Columbia, SC. He said Ron Paul was really nice about staying and talking to everyone who wanted autographs etc. While his views may be pretty radical considering the neo-conservative incumbency, I think he has the right idea. He's a candidate who actually has the balls to go out on a limb and push for what he believes in. He's got my support.

What about my argument is fallacious?

He's easily the most honest candidate I've ever seen. It's amazing how he'll actually go out of his way to clearly communicate exactly what he believes when he's asked a question.

The Great Depression was 2 parts circumstance (Environmental disasters, borrowed credit, bad market affects) and 1 part government. Not just the American government, but world government taking a turn for highly socialized government. The rest was just a result of the stock market's reaction to the above. This isn't arguable. It's a fact. Read any book from right or left on the topic.

World government? What world government, there isn't a unitary world government, each nation has its own government.

And when it comes to socialized government, this didn't really happen until after world war II (see the history of the modern welfare state).

To say "this is a result of the government" and then say "it's commonly accepted fact" is just absurd.

Oh read a history textbook.
Most of the world decided to limit free trade and socialize, That made the stock market go wonky and bam. Depression.

Google it... it's quite a commonly accepted fact. Why are you disagreeing, anyway? Who got you off on some other belief? The question usually comes down to whether social services are thus bad or not, not whether or not they caused the depression itself. There are different economic debates about the world governments (That is, governments of the world. Sorry that wasn't clear.) spending and trading, but there's little debate about the socialization problem.

What on Earth are you talking about? Governments of the west didn't start truly socializing until after the war. I suggest you read up on the history of the welfare state. Perhaps you ought to read some T.H. Marshall, he wrote one version of this history (although not the best, he is more pro-capitalist than others I would reference you too, so maybe you'll see what I mean)



This is just wrong.



It's not like there are only one type of social services, there are many different types of programs, and even with them there are different countries who have radically different ways of implementing the same types.



Exactly, and socialization of the state didn't happen on a wide scale until post-WWII. Again see the rise of the Modern Western Welfare state.

By the way, just to demonstrate how this argument may possibly go on for some time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_depression


^My point: No it isn't "commonly accepted" that it was a result of the government.

For **** sake. Read the whole damn article.

Nothing in the article contradicts the portion that I've quoted.

I really don't understand why everyone is spinning a Clinton victory as so inevitable.

Needless to say, I will be getting my paperwork for naturalisation as a British subject ready in the event she does win... (notice the spelling already! :awesome:)

All meaningless statements which may as well not have been said. I'm not taking a side here, just pointing out some statements which would be absurd to consider any kind of arguments whatsoever.

Ron Paul is awesome.

Did you actually READ the article. You said that govt didn't cause the Depression, but most of the article's list of causes are directly related to the government and it's taxes and regulations.

Yes I actually READ the article, you don't have to be condescending about it, get off your high horse.

It should at least be obvious that the socialization of government didn't happen in the West until after the war. And the nature of capitalism leads to cycles of recession and depression. And this period of time (up to and during the depression) was a time in America of much less regulation than after the depression, and the nature of Capitalism's cycles lead to this event. Again the Great Depression was only the last of a series of depressions throughout the West as a result of Capitalism, and you can't explain them all by the same government intervention as they all have different governments that dealt with the market differently.

Of course the government had a role to play, but it wasn't that the government was this outside party effecting the economy, it was at a time where Capital had much more influence over the state than it did after the War when governments started to intervene in the market much more (see Keynesian economics until the 70s).

http://cbs11tv.com/topstories/local_story_312000255.html

Campaign Fund Used To Test Stolen Credit Cards
(CBS 11 News) CROWLEY Officials say thieves used a presidential campaign to rip people off.

Christine Horton of Crowley said her account was charged several times to support Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul.

"I had never even heard of him," she said. "I was like, 'Oh my God! Someone is stealing from me."

Monday the Paul campaign made history. They raised more than $4 million online in 24 hours from more than 36,000 contributors.

Frost Bank investigators discovered overseas thieves used Paul's Web site to test stolen cards with $5 contributions.

"The Ron Paul campaign has noticed that dozens, perhaps hundreds of these charges have occurred," said Jesse Benton, a finance coordinator for Congressman Paul's campaign. "We are in the process of refunding that money."

Five hundred credit card numbers were stolen from Frost Bank, but fraud management teams spotted the unauthorized charges and notified customers immediately.

The bank refunded money from nearly 100 customers and canceled all 500 credit cards. Paul's campaign refunded $3,000 in stolen funds.

"He's getting money, stolen money," said Horton. "Whether he's affiliated with it or not, I have no clue. But it's too fishy."

This person is clearly a moron.

Why? It's dumb to think it is fishy that a presidential campaign received stolen money? I don't think so. To me it seems practically inevitable that net-nerds stealing money would donate to Paul.

Personally, I think it's dumb to rule out fraud.

What kind of fall in like sheeple person do you need to be to believe some crap like ALL CANDIDATES AND THEIR MANAGERS ARE HONEST LOL.

They were overseas thieves, and donated only five dollars per card just to test them. I don't see anything "fishy" here, I see people staling credit cards. Case solved.



A presidential campaign manager would steal hundreds of credit cards, and risk sinking the campaign, for 3000$? I can see how this might sound like a good idea to you, but...

Yeah, I love the article's spin for such a small amount of cash. Of course, it's not uncommon for the extreme left and right to mindlessly attack Ron Paul's credibility. Especially Sean Hannity's desparate attempt to claim all of Paul's contributors were spam bots. In fact, some journalists are idiotic enough to attempt to place Ron Paul into the terrorist crowd for HR 1955.

The mainstream media does nothing but attempt to brainwash people.

Well, it's definitely inevitable for Guiliani. He's the chief thug of politicians these days.

I'm sorry... I believe you were going to explain why this is fishy?

I'm sure Dick Cheney would do it.

Because Ron Paul obviously did the **** himself.

Christ people are stupid.

Yeah, you and him have a lot in common. I bet you were secretly rooting for the invasion of Iraq too.

HEY GUYS


Politicians have NEVER, NEVER, done the following;

• Lied
• Cheated
• Stolen
• Lied under oath
• Promised not to raise taxes then raised them
• Engaged in extra marital affairs

Those things have never happened. Politicians are the most honest people of a highest level of honestude that you will ever meet, talk to, or shake hands with.

They're basically the best people around. Ever. And you should all respect that.

Aside from the bad generalization, you are also assuming that all politicians are incredibly stupid. The total amount stolen "donated" by the credit cards is 3000$.

Fixed.

Why, yes, I would say that their competence is measured by the results of what they have done.

Hmmm!

Yeah, I'd say most of them are incredibly stupid.

Stupid =! self-serving. They're smart, but most them are just immoral creeps. Unfortunately these are usually the only kind of people who can elected.

Kind of like you assume the things your mommie tells you?


Oh yeah.

Except that I'm right.

those kind of people also tend to run in the first place.

Well, a lot of politicians do tend to be self-serving rather than stupid. Most politicians go in with their own personal agenda and convince (deceive) voters to believe that the politician truly represents them.

Furthermore, most voters tend to not vote outside the 2 party system. This is usually either because they are too ignorant to realize that they identify better with a different platform or because they think that voting for a third party will just be a waste of their vote.

So, in the end we ultimately have Republicans vs. Democrats. Right now, neither have significantly greater control than the other, which can just lead to plenty of disagreement and each side hassling the other for a compromise.

I follow third party ideals (libertarian) but support Ron Paul as a republican since he's the most solid chance we have of getting libertarian ideals (reduced govt, mostly) in office.

To be fair, under the free market anarcho-capitalist system espoused by such political geniuses as Ron Paul and Mystic0, then if you can steal money and get away with it you are almost encouraged to do so.

I'm fairly convinced that Mystic is an absolute anarchist. I wouldn't associate him with Ron Paul.

I'm also not convinced you actually understand what anarcho capitalism is. Where are you getting this "stealing money" nonsense from?

Well truthfully I was mostly just joking. But you'll be amused to note that our beloved Mystic0 is still with us, and in fact registered a new account apparently for the express purpose of sending me this PM:



You know I'd almost agree with his points if he didn't write like an insane person.

Edit: CM if you're reading this, you should unban Mystic. Yeah he's crazy but we need an opposing viewpoint sometimes.

I guess in the wonderful sheltered world of posies and daisies that you lived in, all of the bad things people do can be chalked up to stupidity. Those nice men in congress are merely misguided. You keep telling yourself that.



Ron Paul wants the government to keep it's hand off business as much as possible while making sure that there are enough laws and regulations to force everyone to play fairly and honestly. That's just capitalism, that's nothing new. Capitalism doesn't work with out laws.

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/davidneiwert/2437105258191203346/#294637


Start reading about some of what that man does and wants, then make a decision.