Here are my thoughts on it right now. What do ya'll think?

So far there have been pretty high estiamtes of the total loss of life due to the war (The highest reasonable one I've heard is 600,000) This is bad, but we have to remember that it's the insurgents that are doing it, not US troops. Regardless of the fact that we shouldn't have been there in the first place, it's not at all unlikely that there would have been an even larger death toll by now if we had totally pulled out several years ago. The problem is, it will just keep on going the longer we're there, and I think it's time to realize that democracy just won't work there. What ever will happen will happen. It's time to admit that what we're doing won't work. The feudal-lord type government that Afghanistan had before we invaded sure isn't a good choice for most cultures, but it seemed to fit well in the Middle East.

The current government of the United States is not some evil entity that callously revels in millions of deaths for comparatively small cash kickbacks. For the most part they probably want what's best for the Iraqi people, but are motivated by ideals that are basically idiotic, which are still being taught in schools. (Weather or not they pick up some extra cash on the side is a big issue, but it's separate.) The only way we are going to really learn from this is by looking at what happened and condemning it for what it is. When we start to come up with all these far fetched anti-whoever scenarios and take for fact every conspiracy that comes down the pipe, not only to we miss the real problem, but in doing so we leave ourselves open to making the exact same mistakes this administration has.

All we hear is stuff like "Bush lied, wah wah!" from politicians. Yeah, he took a stupidly pessimistic view of Saddam's arms capabilities, and yeah he only looked at the data he wanted to. That gives congress no excuse for voting for the war. They should have seen through it. The only reason they voted for it is because it was popular at the time, they didn't actually take the effort to make the right decision that it was their responsibility to make. Now they're dumping all their responsibility on Bush, and granted, he is culpable, but Congress shouldn't be let off that easy either. I think on of the reasons people like Ron Paul so much, is because, regardless of what his other views may be, he actually was against the war all along for the right reasons.

It's wonderful that people recognize the problem, but that's not exactly an impressive feat. What is really necessary is a good realistic view of the problem with out trying to make bigger, more defined good guys and bad guys. Fixing the problem requires a much more mature and measured approach, than I think the majority of objectors are taking right now. Extremes are easier to rally around but, you can't sacrifice that for accuracy, or you miss the point.

Guess what, we won't get to decide what's best for the Iraqi people. It's not our business. It isn't an issue of cash kickbacks or "ideals taught in schools", the neocon movement in the United States seeks to force the American way of life on those unsophisticated non-white savages in the sand. It's page for page from the colonialist notions in the 1800s and 1900s.

The longer we stay in Iraq, the more credence we give to the absurd notions of the Neo Conservatives.

Absolutely, if we leave, there will be chaos, but it will leave the country in the hands of it's citizens, instead of a hegemon, and avoid the untold deaths that would ensue if we allow the neocons to push the US into Iran and South America.

That's what I just said.

Basically my point is this: If we only see a problem of corruption, but ignore the "democracy is a gift from the gods" ideology problem replacing the administration accomplishes nothing.

The only real problem I have with your post is that I am unsure what idiotic ideals you are talking about.

Also, the whole world was pretty much on record as agreeing with our opinion that Saddam had WMD programs. Couple that with the fact that Saddam confided in at least one of his captors, whom which he sort of befriended, that he wanted us to think he had a greater capability than he had. I think if we had not acted against Iraq then we would probably have another arms race situation going on with Iraq and Iran.

I generally have a pesimistic few of the region because, generally, it is so tribal, feudal, mob-like... Still, there are good people trying to make a difference and quite a bit of good news coming lately. Guess will find out in another eight years or so.

I pretty much agree with what you said, although I think you're minimizing the true impact that the war has had on the pocketbooks of conservative bed partners.

Furthermore, arguments against Saddam could apply to any number of world leaders, including Saudi Arabia and China. Don't be so easily fooled into thinking that Saddam was simply a bad guy that needed to be stopped. It was convenient to interject at that time, and that's probably the only reason we did so.

**** the war.....











That is all.