the massassi relationship advice game! yayyyy! [/kermit]

as very few of you know, i've been in a relationship with a very nice young woman for the past 4 years now, 4 years and 11 days to be precis, and i've been thinking long and hard lately about "THE BIG QUESTION!" *dramatic chord*

yes, things are going very nicely for us and since this isnt at all like my last relationship where it was basically already over at this point and we just hung on for old times sake for another hateful year, the idea has been weighing heavily on me.

the problem is a small bit of a major point of contention between us.

although our views on religion and spirituality are very very similar, she grew up in a catholic family. very catholic. and because of this she wishes to be married catholic. point of fact, she wishes to be married in the same church as her mother and her mother's mother. for her its not about religion and such, its all about tradition. (aside from the fact that if it weren't a catholic wedding, her father would probably have nothing at all to do with it.)

the issue arises from the fact that i hate the catholic institution. in my view the institutions destructive influences on society far outweigh the good things they have done. i know too much about the history of the institution, where their ideas come from and how much of the structure of western society is still based on catholic principles.

and so i will not become a catholic. it goes against everything i believe in and stand for. i cant even justify "faking it" for the sake of a single day(especially considering the months of preparations for this "conversion"). the thought frankly disgusts me. i have no problem with people who are catholic. i get along very well with her family. the issue is with the institution itself.

we've discussed the issue at length many times over the last year or two, but neither of us is giving any ground on the issue. there is almost no room for compromise on this issue. its all or nothing.

thing is i really do love this girl and i can see myself with her twenty, thirty years down the line. i do want to be with her and we both feel that urge to marry and settle down.

i just dont know what to do.

help?

religion stinks up everything.

Its gonna stink up the marriage bed surely?

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

Re-think about it. You shouldn't get married with anyone unless you are 100% sure something such as this won't get in the way of your marriage. Divorce would also be difficult later on in the marriage if for some reason, because of her being raised in a very strong Catholic family.

I don't understand what the "institution" has done to make you hate them as much as you do. Yeah, certain people in the catholic church have screwed up, that's life. But I do know that it's not all bad, and in fact most churches all over do a lot of good every single day.

Also, I don't see how getting married in the church somehow traps you inside the system anyway. It's just another way of getting married, in another location. Yes, there are traditions, but hell most of those are expressed regardless of your religious stance and where you are getting married.

Sorry, man, but my vote whole-heartedly goes for your significant other, for multiple reasons (in no particular order):

-She's the woman. She's always right.

-You're going to think this is nothing later after your married, when you two have arguments about whether the toilet paper should roll from the outside or the inside.

-I know the Catholic church has done a lot of crap (as do many of us that went to Catholic private schools do) but seriously, they're not the KKK. Get over it.

-Even if they're Hell Incarnate, it'll say something if you go through Hell for her.

-I'll pound you if you go screwing things up over this... >.>

i suppose my biggest issue with the catholic institution is how its influence on western society has hurt women. from early on (100 years or so after christ, i think dont remember exactly at the moment) they have put women into roles of subservience and at several points in history blamed basically all that is wrong with the world on women. its all the damned mysogonist Paul's fault really. (i know that the ideas are far older than that but the church is what has kept it alive for so long. i believe that we would be much more culturally advanced if not for the church basically ruling the minds of the western world for nearly 2000 years.)

the hate and fear inspired by the church over the years also irks me.

plus at one point they sold tickets to heaven. to fund a war(and also some pretty buildings. probably the best thing to come out of catholocism). no joke.

also the location isnt the problem. i hear its a very beautiful church with great frescoes (it looks like a concrete brick from teh outside.) the problem is with me having to convert. go through the rituals. its not something you really take lightly you know? it would feel wrong to pretend to believe in all that stuff and lie right to the face of a priest.

its not like i dont know anything about Christianity or antying. i'm a preachers kid. i grew up in churches. theres a funny story about when i was three or four and we were having communion and my mom the preacher says "this is the blood of christ given for you" and i loudly protested "I dont wanna drink jesus' blood!" Christianity and the bible has been a part of my life from day one.

is it silly to want to stick to my beliefs?

Well, I might as well relate my experience in this matter. It's not exactly the same, but take from it what you will.

I went out with my ex for 3.5 years. I'm agnostic, she was a fundie. I didn't agree at all with her religion, but I never got in the way of it. It really, really bothered her that I didn't believe in god, though, and that's why we eventually broke up. Relationship was great, we loved each other very much, but that one thing ruined it.

Now, in your case it's a bit different. She doesn't sound ultra-religious, she's more about the tradition. Considering you both feel the same way about religion (so you say), maybe "sucking it up" is worth a shot. That's really something that only you can answer for yourself, though.

Why do you have to convert? Is that another requirement of the marriage? My mom was <some sort of> Christian, and my dad was Jewish, and they got married in a Jewish-esque ceremony.

Plenty of other people from Catholic backgrounds marry others with non-catholic backgrounds. Couldn't you say "I am a Christian, you are a Christian, isn't that enough?" You wouldn't be lying to the priest, you wouldn't have to go through all the preperation to convert when you really don't want to, and you still get wifey.

Is there something more, or did I miss something?

for a catholic ceremony, both parties must be catholic. to be married in a catholic church, it must be a catholic ceremony. (although i've heard there are parishes that are more lenient on the latter rule)

Yea i wouldn't worry about the denomination that "runs" the ceremony for her it seems to be more symbolism and tradition the way you put it, it's not like you have to convert to any beliefs to give the same I-DO at the end, the end result is a marriage license if you're under water, jumping through flaming hoops or wrestling crocodiles the same product will result.

Yeah, I would look into seeing how strict this ceremony would be, but if weaseling out of it doesn't work out, big whoop. You are deciding to spend the rest of your life with this woman, (I hope) so consider the junk you have to go through as a dedication to her. Sure, it may not be fun, but look at why you're doing it. You may know the story of Jacob and Rachel. (Genesis 29:something ) He dedicated 7 years of his life in servanthood to gain her hand in marriage.

Aglar's assumption seems right that she doesn't sound like a fundamentalist Catholic, so it shouldn't really be a problem in the future. Marriage isn't just about the day or the ceremony, but, more so, the journey that follows.

I'm liking Geb's advice, particularly that first point

It does sound really tricky, and seems like you've looked at it from most angles. If the two of you have discussed it alot and can't get anywhere I don't see how much help you expect us to be!!

The only thing I can think of, and I don't know whether this would be an option for you, is to try talking to her parents and/or someone at the parish that she wants to get married at. If they are able to respect your wishes (big if!), then perhaps there is a solution that they know of.

Good luck with it, I hope it works out for you both.

Yes it's history isn't great, but I certainly believe it's cleaned up.

I don't like to hold the church responsible for things that happened hundreds of years ago, for the same reason I don't hate all the current Germans for the Holocaust.

How well organized is the catholic religion? I mean, if you say your catholic, wouldn't they just believe you? Maybe do the little cross thing with your hand and say something about that Mary gal to seem more convincing. I really doubt there's a database of all baptized/confirmed catholics, so how would they know?


This is what Germans are banking on...

You should go and complain to the priest. Surely it should be enough that the other is a Catholic and the other is a member of any Christian demonination (you are, aren't you?). If that doesn't help, wrote a letter to a bishop or a cardinal or the pope himself. They should do something concrete for the ecumenism - something in addition to reading Merry Christmas in 70 languages...

For the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland (in which most people here belong to), it's enough if one is a member of the Lutheran Church and the other is a member of any Christian church or denomination. A marriage should be a ceremony to bless the union of two people, not a way to forcefully recruit more members to the church.

Have you ever heard the saying, "Paris is worth a Mass?" (King Henri VI)

If only the wedding is the area of contention (i.e. you're not expected to carry the cross for all your married days), can you really justify forgoing "twenty or thirty" years of marital bliss because you couldn't bite the bullet for one event?

I am a Lutheran, and for many years, I had no love towards the Catholic Church (especially with regards to some of the thornier issues of its history and the less tenable facets of its dogma); however, as time has gone on, I've learned much more about the contemporary Catholic Church, which has, in many areas, become more progressive.

You won't really become catholic. You won't be confirmed on the spot and then take the Eucharist. To take the Eucharist you have to be confirmed which takes "Sunday school." Then you're considered a "catholic." So says my grandmother, who is catholic.

It really does sound like your girl just wants to do this out of family tradition rather than religious purposes. So I don't think you have a chance of being seduced to the "Papal Side"

Not always, I could've had a Catholic service (Izzy is Catholic) - and I'm angnostic, although she conceeded and we're having an Anglican service because Catholic masses can really go on. You don't have to convert, and if it's just about tradition maybe you can have the wedding there, but not a full on Catholic service?

Either way, popping the question has somehow made things between Iz and I even better so I would heartily recommend it.

Exactly.

Yeah, it's important to you, but it's her day. Consider this the ultimate compromise.

I actually find Catholics to be more open minded than Protestants. All my catholic friends accept and respect my views more.

Edit: Also, don't dwell in the past. Sure, the Catholic church had a bad history, as anyone (especially me :hist101:) can tell you, but modern day Catholics are very different (Probably due to prejudices expressed on them...like/same as the Irish immigrants).

my boys were baptized catholic. i agreed to it to make their mother happy even though she doesn't even believe in god (don't ask).

the day came and i was nervous. nice big 120yr. old church. we walked in and i couldn't get past the back pew. my boys grandfather just stepped up and held my boys while they were baptized and i sat in the back pew by myself while 50 family members sat in the front pews.
i just couldn't do it. :/

blasted back by the Catholic field! my weapons do nothing!

Yeah, my mom is Catholic and my dad is atheist/agnostic and they got married in a Catholic ceremony 25 years ago with no 'conversion'.

Maybe you could reserve the building for another purpose. Like a birthday party. . .then everyone just goes dressed for a wedding. The vows get said and everyone books it to the reception.

I call Shenanigans there mate. My Auntie is Catholic, however my Uncle isn't and they were married in a catholic ceremony a year and a half ago. No conversion required.

you should have a russian orthodox service

It's the best. No other service makes you drink half a bottle of vodka.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the whole catholic service needs to be catholic thing is not true....

Personally, I'd say sack up and do it. If it's for tradition, then definitely. Amazing how you stick to your beliefs though.

Just lie to the priests and say you're catholic. Do it for your girlfriend, and to make good with the family.

If her family is intensely Catholic, I'd consider myself lucky that she's only doing it for the sake of tradition.

Secondly, where are you coming at this from, are you both agnostic, or protestant, or what? Unless you hold to some other religion with any conviction, just go with the tradition. You're not endorsing the church by doing so. (I'm not totally sure weather Catholic marriages require you to become a Catholic, if so, that complicates things.)

And thirdly, about Roman Catholicism, the institution is responsible for some pretty horrific things, but it changed quite drastically between the 1500-1700s. I mean today the Pope believes in evolution. Also, even in the Middle Ages, it wasn't really responsible to for as much scientific and cultural retardation as it's often portrayed to have caused. It wasn't really until the reformation/renaissance that the church got itself organized and caused major problems with the scientific community, and then only in certain countries like France and in Spain. That was when they started really enforcing Aristotelian science and their own stupid Biblical interpretations, in an attempt to try to hold on to what little remained of it's political and social clout.

Throughout the Dark Ages, a huge amount of people were surprisingly irreverent. The pious were very mystical, and often believed in a strange combination of ancient cultural religions woven into the church's teaching. Generally, though, these were surfs who were already uneducated because of the feudal system that they were a part of. By the 1200's, the Black Plague and scandals the like Papal schism and egregious church corruption had shaken most people's belief in God, giving rise to a decent amount of outright atheism.

That being said, I do think the Catholic church holds unbiblical beliefs in many fundamental Christian doctrines, and I agree that they are responsible for many atrocities. I'm just pointing out that solely responsible for all of the societal problems of the Middle Ages, for what it's worth.

Thanks for the history lesson.

haha, sorry... I had MSPaint open from that other thread.

Bahahahaaha!

i agree with JG: bahahahahaha!

yes obi and john paul II even apologised to muslims jews women and other minorities. sometimes saying i'm sorry isnt enough.

i've decided to give in to tradition. i still have some priests to talk to, but i feel its the right thing to do. planning the proposal for this june on a romantic getaway in the middle of nowhere.

and yes, we are both agnostic.

Good lad Ford, you won't regret it!

:BIGSMILEYFACE:

las vegas baby, thats all i have to say.......

Get elvis to tie the knot.....

this guy might be the only person i put on ignore. seriously.

I never met an agnostic that was so against getting married in a church before.

Actually, there is. Every church and diocese keeps a record of all people baptized and at what church the baptism happened in the diocese. As well as when and where they were confirmed and married (as well as to whom they were married).

The catholic church's recordkeeping is one of the reasons researching your genealogy is possible.

hooray for Ford! just remember that the day is for her and her family, everything that comes after the two of you can dictate for yourselves.

I'm pretty certain this is going to be the most amazing thing you could do for her, and since she knows how you feel about it, the fact that you would put aside your wishes to make her happy is absolutely wonderful.

Yeah, seems like a good choice. Congrats.