a Christian Socialist

This is dumb and you should feel dumb for thinking this is a good idea.

This is dumb and you should feel dumb for thinking this is a good idea.

This is dumb and you should feel dumb for thinking this is a good idea.

This is dumb and you should feel dumb for thinking this is a good idea.

For me it's not an issue of what our kids are saying at school, it's just the idea of the thing. Considering the PoA is an idea to begin with, I think it's more than okay to discuss the quality of the idea, and changing it. Otherwise we're following traditions and symbolism out of habit instead of actually believing it.

Hey, if god didn't want us to fantasize about and (god willing, actually nail a hot chick), he shouldn't have given us the equipment and the libido to back it up.

[I also enjoy how "there's no separation of church and state in the constitution" (even though there is, but "there isn't," so I can't talk about it, lol!) = "there should be a merging of religious beliefs with state ideas"]

All the constitution says is that government shall not establish a state religion.

The extremes this idea is taken to, such as the frightening segment of the left that thinks only atheists should be allowed to hold public office, are ridiculous.

Your argument makes me suspect that you are not an atheist, but actually an anti-theist.

Really? My argument that the government shouldn't be bothered with churchy things makes me anti-theist? If that's what an anti-theist is, let me be the first to be issued a club card.

Sometimes you just have to accept that the majority of America believes something different than you do, and go along with it. No one forces you to say the pledge, nor does saying it impart any beliefs upon you.

Man up, accept what you can't change, and work on ways to improve yourself or make those around you happier.

That's all well and good, but by that logic no one should complain about anything ever.

<JediKirby> I don't know how bigoted it is to dislike religion. I don't think religious people would be okay with an atheist president.
<BaconFish> I think they would in general, just not the bible-thumpers
<JediKirby> But JM is arguing that an atheist arguing for atheist office holders is bigoted. From an atheist's perspective, religious people are borderline retarded. From a christian's perspective, atheists are hateful and spiteful of God. Those are the extremes, of course.
<JM> Good thing I am neither of those.
<JediKirby> But the point is that this is different from racism, sexism, or other discriminations
<JM> The 'this is different' argument is used by every prejudiced group to justify their prejudice to themselves.
<JediKirby> Black has nothing to do with who you are, and doesn't reflect on you as a person
<JM> If you're going to phrase it that way, I'll just point out that most members of religious group X are good people.
<JediKirby> Good people by your definition.
<JM> No, good people by society's definition.
<JediKirby> I think you can completely disagree with, be afraid of, and hate christianity without hating christians.
<JM> Those kind of people I don't have an issue with. Christianity has issues.
<JediKirby> I like most Christians, I am most certainly anti-religion. I think religion is brain-numbing and dangerous escapism. I don't hate anyone for it, but I don't think it's healthy or good for people, and ultimately, society. So of course I'd prefer atheists as president. I'm certain a christian could argue the exact opposite. It hinges on a belief, not on a person's traits. So it's not inherently prejudice. It's a fundimental disagreement. I'm arguing that it isn't similar to racism to be anti-religious, or anti-athiest.
<BaconFish> Yes it is, its predjudice, plain and simple.
<JediKirby> But it's not prejudice based on someone's traits, It's based on their beliefs. I fundimentally disagree with religion, you can't fundimentally disagree with a skin color.
<BaconFish> that doesnt really matter though, youre still predjudiced against someone thanks to a characteristic
<JediKirby> But one they've chosen that I find fundimentally damaging
<BaconFish> where the hate comes from doesnt matter, its more the fact that it exists
<JediKirby> Hate might be a strong word, at least for me. Anti-religion doesn't imply hate, it implies being against religion.
<JM> There is a difference between being against religion, and being against religious people.
<JediKirby> I like religious people, usually. I don't think Roach is against them, either. I think he's against the idea, and to claim it's prejudice to think atheists should be the only ones to hold office is stupid.
<JM> I know, but I'm taking the side against him so we can meet in the middle.
<BaconFish> if you think only athiests should hold office, that isnt being against religion, thats being against religious people that run for president
<JediKirby> Agreed entirely. That was my point, it isn't fundimentally anti-religious
<JM> I labeled that an 'extreme' for a reason.
<JediKirby> It isn't even prejudice, it's a preference
<JM> What's the difference? Preference is just prejudice with a better conotation.
<JediKirby> It's not the same as racial prejudice. You disagree with a person's beliefs, not their skin color. When you try to make it a prejudice, you're implying it's like racism, or sexism, or other taboo prejudices. A person's religion is something they choose to follow
<JM> Usually it's not, it's something their parents choose them to follow. Admitting something is a prejudice is not the same as admitting the thing you are prejudiced against is good.
<BaconFish> nobodies pigeon-holing the word here but you, youre associating the word prejudice with racism etc
<JediKirby> That's obsurd. You're implying a skin color carries other values other than pigment.
<JM> That's what prejudice IS, Kirby. The assumption that something implies another.
<JediKirby> I'm assuming that a person who is religious is an idiot
<JM> I'm assuming that a person who assumes things like that is a bigot.
<JediKirby> Okay, no I agree now, I understand your point.
<BaconFish> Yay, argument over
<JediKirby> you've actually taught me something. I should withhold my prejudice against religious people. And I don't think I did have a real prejudice. When asked if religious people are idiots, I might agree. But in my every day life, when meeting a religious person, I don't think they're idiots simply because they're religious
<JM> It's fine, Kirbs. I happen to think agnostic people are just indecisive fools.