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ForumsDiscussion Forum → What the hell?!
123
What the hell?!
2008-04-17, 11:26 PM #41
Originally posted by Michael MacFarlane:
Would've been a terrible miscarriage of justice if this had turned out to be real.


Teach me your ways, master.
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
-----------------------------@%
2008-04-18, 12:11 AM #42
I shall not change my original statement. While it's better for her body it was all lies, but in general if your university project is based on lies it's certainly no good.
Frozen in the past by ICARUS
2008-04-18, 12:52 AM #43
Uhm, most stories/movies/whatever out there are based on lies. Some more, some less entertaining.
Sorry for the lousy German
2008-04-18, 2:46 AM #44


[quote=The article]Shvarts didn't actually perform the acts[/quote]

.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2008-04-18, 3:30 AM #45
Originally posted by Impi:
Uhm, most stories/movies/whatever out there are based on lies. Some more, some less entertaining.


Your point being? This wasn't a most story/movie out there. But it certainly was a whatever out there. However, it was supposed to be a university project. Last time I checked, a university is a place of science, and lies and science fit together as finely as Korean scientists and human cloning. Maybe if she had been studying mass media or something like that, and giving a false statement had been a part of the study, it would have made more sense, though still it would have been somewhat dubious in my opinion.
Frozen in the past by ICARUS
2008-04-18, 5:06 AM #46
You can study art. It's rarely based on facts.

[edit: My point is that a university project may be based on lies.]
Sorry for the lousy German
2008-04-18, 5:17 AM #47
Artists use lies to tell the truth.
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
ᴸᶥᵛᵉ ᴼᵑ ᴬᵈᵃᵐ
2008-04-18, 6:12 AM #48
To most people there is a difference between a physically made art and a social experiment art. The main idea is that to even think about going so far outside social normalcy is beyond art straying into insanity (from the point of view of people in that norm.)

The question of what is art and what is not is alive and well it seems

personally, how ****ed up do you have to be in the first place to come up with an idea to do this?
Holy soap opera Batman. - FGR
DARWIN WILL PREVENT THE DOWNFALL OF OUR RACE. - Rob
Free Jin!
2008-04-18, 8:17 AM #49
baahahahahaha i lol'd at this
A dream is beautiful because it remains a dream.
2008-04-18, 10:37 AM #50
Student: I'm gonna kill my baby and tape it
School: She's just embellishing it
Student: yea, yea i'm going to do it, in fact i've already started
Holy soap opera Batman. - FGR
DARWIN WILL PREVENT THE DOWNFALL OF OUR RACE. - Rob
Free Jin!
2008-04-18, 10:54 AM #51
I love the comments page on the YDN. Especially when people say things like, "I can't believe she's willing to kill millions of babies for the sake of "art"!"

Yep. Millions and millions of 'em.
2008-04-18, 11:15 AM #52
UHG, PAGE DOWN!

What does it say?
2008-04-18, 3:24 PM #53
shame its fake thats pretty hot
2008-04-18, 8:16 PM #54
Originally posted by Rob:
UHG, PAGE DOWN!

What does it say?

COPY AND PASTED

Quote:
University calls art project a fiction; Shvarts '08 disputes Yale's claim
Zachary Abrahamson, Thomas Kaplan and Martine Powers
Guest Columnists
Published Thursday, April 17, 2008

According to a statement released by the University today, Aliza Shvarts .08 was never impregnated. She never miscarried. The sweeping outrage on blogs across the country was apparently for naught.

The supposed senior art project of the Davenport College senior was a .creative fiction,. a Yale official said Thursday afternoon as students on campus and bloggers across the country expressed colossal outrage over what Shvarts described as a documentation of a nine-month process during which she claimed to have artificially inseminated herself .as often as possible. while periodically taking .abortifacient drugs. to induce miscarriages.

.The entire project is an art piece, a creative fiction designed to draw attention to the ambiguity surrounding form and function of a woman.s body,. Yale spokeswoman Helaine Klasky said in a written statement e-mailed to the News this afternoon.

But Shvarts stood by her project, calling the University.s statement .ultimately inaccurate..

Klasky said Shvarts informed three senior Yale officials today . including two deans . that she neither impregnated herself nor induced any miscarriages. Rather, the entire episode, including a press release describing the exhibition, was .performance art,. Klasky said.

.She is an artist and has the right to express herself through performance art,. Klasky said. .Had these acts been real, they would have violated basic ethical standards and raised serious mental and physical health concerns..

But Shvarts reiterated Thursday that she repeatedly use a needleless syringe to insert semen into herself. At the end of her menstrual cycle, she took abortifacient herbs to induce bleeding, she said. She said she does not know whether or not she was ever pregnant.

.No one can say with 100-percent certainty that anything in the piece did or did not happen,. Shvarts said, .because the nature of the piece is that it did not consist of certainties..

This afternoon, Shvarts showed the News footage from tapes she plans to play at the exhibit. The tapes depict Shvarts . sometimes naked, sometimes clothed . alone in a shower stall bleeding into a cup.

Pia Lindman, Shvarts.s thesis adviser, and Davenport College Dean Craig Harwood could not be reached for comment Thursday. Art Director of Undergraduate Studies Henk van Assen deferred comment to the Yale Office of Public Affairs.

Yale.s statement comes after a day of widespread outrage all across the country following an article in today.s edition of the News in which Shvarts described her supposed exhibition, which she said would include the video recordings well as a preserved collection of the blood from the process, which she said she is storing in a freezer.

In an interview Wednesday, Shvarts said the goal of her exhibition was to spark conversation and debate about the relationship between art and the human body. She said her endeavor was not conceived with any .shock value. in mind.

.I hope it inspires some sort of discourse,. Shvarts said. .Sure, some people will be upset with the message and will not agree with it, but it.s not the intention of the piece to scandalize anyone..

Shvarts said her project would take the form of a large cube suspended from the ceiling of a room in the gallery of Green Hall. Shvarts said she would wrap hundreds of feet of plastic sheeting around the cube, with blood from her self-induced miscarriages lining the sheeting.

Recorded videos of her experiencing her miscarriages would be projected onto the four sides of the cube, Shvarts said, and similar videos would also be displayed on the walls of the room.

Many students on campus expressed outrage when told of the concept, saying it trivialized abortion and transgressed any reasonable moral boundary. On Thursday, the general public seemed to agree; by early evening Thursday, news outlets from The Washington Post to London.s Daily Telegraph had reported the story, and the blogosphere was ablaze in horrified debate over the supposed exhibition.

The project . at least the way Shvarts presented it in her press release and her interview . was immediately condemned Thursday by national groups on both sides of the abortion debate.

.It.s clearly depraved. I think the poor woman has got some major mental problems,. the president of the National Right to Life Committee, Wanda Franz, was quoted as saying on the Web site of FOX News. .She.s a serial killer. This is just a horrible thought..

The abortion-rights group NARAL Pro-Choice America also condemned the exhibition in a written statement e-mailed to the News on Thursday.

.This .project. is offensive and insensitive to the women who have suffered the heartbreak of miscarriage,. said Ted Miller, a spokesman for the organization
Holy soap opera Batman. - FGR
DARWIN WILL PREVENT THE DOWNFALL OF OUR RACE. - Rob
Free Jin!
2008-04-18, 11:55 PM #55
Puns on this topic are sadly limited.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2008-04-19, 11:58 AM #56
Fake or not, it's still creepy that she would even claim to do that.
2008-04-19, 7:42 PM #57
And now she's explaining herself!
Quote:
For the past year, I performed repeated self-induced miscarriages. I created a group of fabricators from volunteers who submitted to periodic STD screenings and agreed to their complete and permanent anonymity. From the 9th to the 15th day of my menstrual cycle, the fabricators would provide me with sperm samples, which I used to privately self-inseminate. Using a needleless syringe, I would inject the sperm near my cervix within 30 minutes of its collection, so as to insure the possibility of fertilization. On the 28th day of my cycle, I would ingest an abortifacient, after which I would experience cramps and heavy bleeding.

To protect myself and others, only I know the number of fabricators who participated, the frequency and accuracy with which I inseminated and the specific abortifacient I used. Because of these measures of privacy, the piece exists only in its telling. This telling can take textual, visual, spatial, temporal and performative forms — copies of copies of which there is no original.

This piece — in its textual and sculptural forms — is meant to call into question the relationship between form and function as they converge on the body. The artwork exists as the verbal narrative you see above, as an installation that will take place in Green Hall, as a time-based performance, as a independent concept, as a myth and as a public discourse.

It creates an ambiguity that isolates the locus of ontology to an act of readership. An intentional ambiguity pervades both the act and the objects I produced in relation to it. The performance exists only as I chose to represent it. For me, the most poignant aspect of this representation — the part most meaningful in terms of its political agenda (and, incidentally, the aspect that has not been discussed thus far) — is the impossibility of accurately identifying the resulting blood. Because the miscarriages coincide with the expected date of menstruation (the 28th day of my cycle), it remains ambiguous whether the there was ever a fertilized ovum or not. The reality of the pregnancy, both for myself and for the audience, is a matter of reading.

This ambivalence makes obvious how the act of identification or naming — the act of ascribing a word to something physical — is at its heart an ideological act, an act that literally has the power to construct bodies. In a sense, the act of conception occurs when the viewer assigns the term “miscarriage” or “period” to that blood.

In some sense, neither term is exactly accurate or inaccurate; the ambiguity is not merely a matter of context, but is embodied in the physicality of the object. This central ambiguity defies a clear definition of the act. The reality of miscarriage is very much a linguistic and political reality, an act of reading constructed by an act of naming — an authorial act.

It is the intention of this piece to destabilize the locus of that authorial act, and in doing so, reclaim it from the heteronormative structures that seek to naturalize it.

As an intervention into our normative understanding of “the real” and its accompanying politics of convention, this performance piece has numerous conceptual goals. The first is to assert that often, normative understandings of biological function are a mythology imposed on form. It is this mythology that creates the sexist, racist, ableist, nationalist and homophobic perspective, distinguishing what body parts are “meant” to do from their physical capability. The myth that a certain set of functions are “natural” (while all the other potential functions are “unnatural”) undermines that sense of capability, confining lifestyle choices to the bounds of normatively defined narratives.

Just as it is a myth that women are “meant” to be feminine and men masculine, that penises and vaginas are “meant” for penetrative heterosexual sex (or that mouths, anuses, breasts, feet or leather, silicone, vinyl, rubber, or metal implements are not “meant” for sex at all), it is a myth that ovaries and a uterus are “meant” to birth a child.

When considering my own bodily form, I recognize its potential as extending beyond its ability to participate in a normative function. While my organs are capable of engaging with the narrative of reproduction — the time-based linkage of discrete events from conception to birth — the realm of capability extends beyond the bounds of that specific narrative chain. These organs can do other things, can have other purposes, and it is the prerogative of every individual to acknowledge and explore this wide realm of capability.

this one line caught my eye near the end
Quote:
Just as it is a myth that women are “meant” to be feminine and men masculine, that penises and vaginas are “meant” for penetrative heterosexual sex (or that mouths, anuses, breasts, feet or leather, silicone, vinyl, rubber, or metal implements are not “meant” for sex at all), it is a myth that ovaries and a uterus are “meant” to birth a child.

What else would they be used for!?

This story confounds me and scares me greatly
linky
Holy soap opera Batman. - FGR
DARWIN WILL PREVENT THE DOWNFALL OF OUR RACE. - Rob
Free Jin!
2008-04-19, 9:09 PM #58
The point is that they aren't "meant" for anything, in that there was no designer who said, "I am making these for purpose of teh bebbies!" when they were made. Of course, that's the function they serve most commonly, but evolution doesn't operate with a purpose in mind.
2008-04-19, 9:12 PM #59
That is, quite possibly, the dumbest post ever.
Pissed Off?
2008-04-19, 9:22 PM #60
Originally posted by Vornskr:
The point is that they aren't "meant" for anything, in that there was no designer who said, "I am making these for purpose of teh bebbies!" when they were made. Of course, that's the function they serve most commonly, but evolution doesn't operate with a purpose in mind.


the brain is only "meant" for thinking
2008-04-19, 9:24 PM #61
Then what was the appendix meant for?
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
-----------------------------@%
2008-04-19, 9:55 PM #62
The appendix drains toxic materials from the large intestine. It also cultures helpful digestive bacteria.
2008-04-19, 10:51 PM #63
Originally posted by Avenger:
That is, quite possibly, the dumbest post ever.


Hope that was aimed at me. If so, sigquoted.
2008-04-19, 10:58 PM #64
Originally posted by Vornskr:
The point is that they aren't "meant" for anything, in that there was no designer who said, "I am making these for purpose of teh bebbies!" when they were made. Of course, that's the function they serve most commonly,


Well, yes... what these organs were "meant" to do is up for metaphysical argument. However, what they actually do is make babies, and nothing else -- that's biological fact, and it's just as silly to insist that they serve some other feministically acceptable function as it is to insist that they are meant to make men happy or to fulfill God's divine will in some or other way.

Quote:
but evolution doesn't operate with a purpose in mind.


I separated this from the rest of the post because it's important. No, evolution doesn't have any kind of coherent will, but by the very nature of evolution, the "purpose" of evolution is to reproduce more effectively. The species that continue to do so get to keep playing the game, the species that don't, get biology's ultimate "game over" screen.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2008-04-19, 11:16 PM #65
Originally posted by Jon`C:
the brain is only "meant" for thinking


Indeed, except when it's being used for eating, or hosting parasites, or running the puppetmasters' servers in the Matrix.

Originally posted by Michael MacFarlane:
Well, yes... what these organs were "meant" to do is up for metaphysical argument. However, what they actually do is make babies, and nothing else -- that's biological fact, and it's just as silly to insist that they serve some other feministically acceptable function as it is to insist that they are meant to make men happy or to fulfill God's divine will in some or other way.


I'm not denying that the uterus serves to make babies. But maybe uteruses also make men happy or fulfill God's will. How can you say they weren't "meant" to do that, if you can indeed demonstrate that it's something that they do?

Quote:
I separated this from the rest of the post because it's important. No, evolution doesn't have any kind of coherent will, but by the very nature of evolution, the "purpose" of evolution is to reproduce more effectively. The species that continue to do so get to keep playing the game, the species that don't, get biology's ultimate "game over" screen.


Well, right, if you're willing to ascribe "purpose" or "intention" to a non-volitional force.

Part of the issue here is that you can look at something performing a function, and you can understand how that function works, but you can't read too much into that as far as what its creator meant to accomplish.

For example, what was this whole "art" thing meant to achieve?
2008-04-19, 11:45 PM #66
Unfortunately we don't really have an elegant term to describe something that is purpose-built even though it wasn't built and there was no consciousness behind its purpose. You, however, are playing semantics games to try to imply (or inject) metaphysics into a topic of discussion that doesn't really need any.

The obvious purpose of a uterus is for reproduction. Whether it was purposefully created by God or accidentally created by a beta particle colliding with the wrong prehistoric algae, it only has one purpose. You can use the uterus for other things - like an umbrella, or maybe a car - but it's obviously not suitable for those purposes, and using it for absolutely anything else is immediately detrimental to its engineered purpose.

And before you play semantics with me about how the uterus' engineered purpose can be anything from a sink to a rowboat, I think it's pretty obvious that the uterus is far better at hosting fetuses than it is at fashioning mocha frappes, so I'm going to take the extremely arrogant but also extremely safe perspective of knowing exactly what the almighty was trying to accomplish when he created it.

By the way - art is apparently meant to give college girls attention because daddy won't.
2008-04-20, 12:01 AM #67
Originally posted by Vornskr:
I'm not denying that the uterus serves to make babies. But maybe uteruses also make men happy or fulfill God's will. How can you say they weren't "meant" to do that, if you can indeed demonstrate that it's something that they do?


The biological function of the uterus is to participate in the making of babies. The uterus would continue to participate in this process even if it no longer made men happy (for example, I doubt that Denver Broncos running back Travis Henry is happy to be doling out large portions of his NFL paycheck to several different women, but nevertheless, there it is). I'm inclined to say that the uterus would participate in this process in defiance of God's displeasure, but... well, he is God, and by definition He can alter the rules anytime He likes.

Quote:
Well, right, if you're willing to ascribe "purpose" or "intention" to a non-volitional force.


"Intention" I'm not going to touch, but "'purpose"? I think that's an acceptable enough word to describe what evolution does, and even what evolution is "for." Creatures evolve in order to get better at producing more of themselves; I can see this as a "purpose" even though there's obviously no "intention" involved.

Quote:
Part of the issue here is that you can look at something performing a function, and you can understand how that function works, but you can't read too much into that as far as what its creator meant to accomplish.


Frankly, when I look at any kind of machine, I look at what it does and assume that its creator/inventor/whatever meant it to do exactly that.

Quote:
For example, what was this whole "art" thing meant to achieve?


I have no idea why we value art. At all. I'd honestly be really interested to hear some perspectives on this.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2008-04-20, 10:07 AM #68
Quote:
this one line caught my eye near the end
Quote:
Quote:
Just as it is a myth that women are “meant” to be feminine and men masculine, that penises and vaginas are “meant” for penetrative heterosexual sex (or that mouths, anuses, breasts, feet or leather, silicone, vinyl, rubber, or metal implements are not “meant” for sex at all), it is a myth that ovaries and a uterus are “meant” to birth a child.


What else would they be used for!?

This story confounds me and scares me greatly


The answer to this is right there in the woman's statement;


Quote:
This ambivalence makes obvious how the act of identification or naming — the act of ascribing a word to something physical — is at its heart an ideological act, an act that literally has the power to construct bodies. In a sense, the act of conception occurs when the viewer assigns the term “miscarriage” or “period” to that blood.

In some sense, neither term is exactly accurate or inaccurate; the ambiguity is not merely a matter of context, but is embodied in the physicality of the object. This central ambiguity defies a clear definition of the act. The reality of miscarriage is very much a linguistic and political reality, an act of reading constructed by an act of naming — an authorial act.


I feel that she's not specifically referring to the biological functions of her ovaries, but rather the human decision to label. Why are ovaries baby-makers? Because we decide they are, that's what we've labelled them as. We need to give everything a definition and a meaning. Something is meant to do whatever it does because we decide that's the case. Of course, this is a simple result of a logical brain, language and the desire to communicate.

On the other hand, on a less 'labelling' branch of thought;
I would say that we're all agreed that the use of a penis is to impregnate a woman, but it isn't always used for that function. I don't hear anyone proclaiming 'mass murderer' every time a teenage boy masturbates or a condom is used to stop impregnation. The woman in question might not even have been pregnant most of the blood samples, apparently, but just having a period; I would consider having an abortion at this point barely worthy of the term 'abortion'.

The tongue is meant for speech and taste, however it can also be used for oral sex. I'm pretty sure 'mother nature' or 'God' or whatever didn't design the tongue for this purpose, but we do it anyway.

Another good argument is the male G-Spot. It's location? In his arse. Does this mean we're meant to have anal sex? Well, bugger that! :p Oh, I made a funny...

Then there's there's the purpose/use of something. I'm good at writing, does that mean my purpose is to write? Can't I choose not to write?

As for the 'hoax'. Is it bollocks. She, and the University, are just covering their arses now to avoid trouble. She'd be done for ethical... stuff, whilst the University would suffer reputation loss for letting her do it in the first place.

As for the question of 'Art'. Originally, ever since 'Unmade Bed' won the Turner Prize (I think it was anyway), I was very 'anti-modern art'. However, over time I've come to accept it. The idea is not only to draw attention to social points but to raise certain issues; long gone are the days when pretty pictures were considered art. I tend to differentiate nowadays between artists and illustrators. Whilst, I still find a lot of modern art idiotic and produced by people that can't draw, I see value in the message conveyed. This is a very good example, in fact. I don't want to see the bloody thing (ha ha) but the issue raised is interesting and worthy of comment.

When I proclaimed 'I have an Unmade Bed every morning, where's my award', my mate simply turned around and said 'You didn't enter.' Basically put, 'you didn't think of the idea'. Face it, how many people would have thought of self-inducing loads of abortions and submitting it as art? I swear, in the future, the artists of the world will be beyond eccentric.
2008-04-20, 10:11 AM #69
Originally posted by Michael MacFarlane:
I have no idea why we value art. At all. I'd honestly be really interested to hear some perspectives on this.


Kirbs already said it. "Art is a lie that helps us see the truth." Supposedly a Picasso quote. Art, as I see it, can't really come around until your basic needs of shelter, water, food, warmth, whatever the basic list is seen as these days, are taken care of. Because then someone has the opportunity to think about the grander things in life. What am I going to do with my life, what does it all mean and so on.

So in my thinking, art is a way that people get answers to the major emotional (and I suppose spiritual, if you are into that) questions in life. The really cool part is that creating it probably answers more questions for a person than viewing art does.

I am still trying to make that definition less vague but it's not coming along.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2008-04-20, 10:39 AM #70
If it was any less vague, it would lose it's meaning. "Art is a lie that helps us see the truth" is the perfect definition of art.

And all that discussion about the purpose of uteri, (firefox spellcheck says that's right.) it's jest feminist psychobabble. We're animals. Every single bit of us can be sorted into one of two categories : Parts that help our genes survive and reproduce now, and parts that used to help our genes survive and reproduce. Reproducing is the entire and only purpose of our existence. The desire to want to be more than that is probably natural, but too bad, you aren't.
2008-04-20, 11:02 AM #71
Ok, I can see that I phrased my last question poorly.

What I meant to say was: "What is this girl's "artwork" meant to achieve?"


It's a pretty mundane post-structuralist point: you can't tell from a work of art (or indeed anything, such as this post) what the author intended to accomplish when creating it. All you can do is decide what effects it has when you perceive it, and figure out how that works. Basically, meaning is mostly in the act of beholding, rather than creating.

For example, you can't really be sure what my 'meaning' is in posting here. Maybe I sincerely want to discuss something that I see as vaguely problematic "art", or maybe I'm just trolling.

What she's trying to do here is approach that argument by overlaying it with the metaphysical question of purpose in nature. Now, you could say that a chicken egg's purpose is to create baby chickens. Certainly that's what the chicken would think of it. But, from my perspective, eggs are much more useful for eating. You'll argue that what nature intended was the reproductive use, and I'm using it in a secondary way for my own purposes. But, in your way of looking at it, nature is basically taking sides, as if its goal were for chickens alone to reproduce. If you view nature as an abstract system from the outside, it's pretty clear that eggs serve both roles. I'm not exactly sure how to express this, other than to imagine nature as a big machine in which eggs play a double role. What their "real" purpose is depends on which subsystem of the machine you're looking at.

(The Britt's explanation works well, too; I wanted to avoid issues of sexuality because people will bring in their own biases about that, too, but clearly that was one of the lines of argument that the student meant to get at by using her own reproductive organs in this.)


Of course, this is just my interpretation. But... that's kind of the point: art is something that's meant to be interpreted in multiple ways. Kind of like a horoscope.
2008-04-20, 11:10 AM #72
Originally posted by JM:
And all that discussion about the purpose of uteri, (firefox spellcheck says that's right.)


English words should have English plurals. I notice you're not declining it to be in the genitive, like it should be. ("The purpose of uterorum")

Quote:
it's jest feminist psychobabble. We're animals. Every single bit of us can be sorted into one of two categories : Parts that help our genes survive and reproduce now, and parts that used to help our genes survive and reproduce. Reproducing is the entire and only purpose of our existence. The desire to want to be more than that is probably natural, but too bad, you aren't.


It's not just feminist psychobabble (btw, what's "psycho" about it?). It's existential humanist babble, being willing to acknowledge that if our consciousness exists at all, the one thing it's good for is allowing us to give our own meaning to our existence. If you're content believing that you're a deterministic machine that goes around doing its best to propagate little molecular codes it carries, fine. I'm not. But this has nothing to do with feminism.
2008-04-20, 12:15 PM #73
The definition of sentience is an awareness of what you are. This is distinct and separate from our capacity for self-determination. This is nothing but sophistry.
2008-04-20, 1:00 PM #74
Quote:
English words should have English plurals. I notice you're not declining it to be in the genitive, like it should be. ("The purpose of uterorum")


The wonderful thing about the English language is that it is so easy to just make up a new word on the spot. And lets face it, plurals like cacti are awesome, and we need more of them. That said, I am now going to be using the words virorum and penorum.

Also spell check doesn't like uteruses but it thinks uteri is fine. So I'm just going to trust the machine to make my decisions for me, kay.

Quote:
English words should have English plurals.
I find this particularly funny.
2008-04-20, 1:50 PM #75
Originally posted by Jon`C:
The definition of sentience is an awareness of what you are.

Actually, that's sapience, sentience is the ability to feel or perceive.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2008-04-20, 3:15 PM #76
Respectfully withdrawn and replaced with the term 'self-awareness'.
2008-04-20, 3:19 PM #77
I think the misuse comes largely from Star Trek. :rant:
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2008-04-20, 3:28 PM #78
Originally posted by Jon`C:
The definition of sentience is an awareness of what you are. This is distinct and separate from our capacity for self-determination. This is nothing but sophistry.


I don't understand how this refutes anything that I've said. I think we all agree that humans are capable of perception and are aware of what we are ("sentient" and "sapient" using the terms provided here). I also believe that we have free will (which is what I believe you mean by 'self-determination').

I made an attempt to paraphrase her argument, which was: our actions are meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but we can choose to let them have meaning to ourselves. Some people may believe that the single "meaning" is in carrying out the biological drive of reproduction; others think they can find "meaning" in other acts.

Bringing in the question of free will was a mistake, because it isn't essential to that point above. To me, it seemed as though accepting reproduction as life's only "meaning" goes hand in hand with a rejection of free will, although I'll have to rethink that. It's beside the point at hand, though.

What do I have to gain from sophistry?
2008-04-20, 4:04 PM #79
I don't know, but on further reflection it occurs to me that you are arguing (or, rather, paraphrasing her argument to say) that a uterus isn't just meant for reproduction because humans have the ability to suggest otherwise.

Quote:
This ambivalence makes obvious how the act of identification or naming — the act of ascribing a word to something physical — is at its heart an ideological act, an act that literally has the power to construct bodies. In a sense, the act of conception occurs when the viewer assigns the term “miscarriage” or “period” to that blood.


Which is ridiculous. Our propensity for applying labels to things doesn't change their nature. Even if humans were unthiking machines, a miscarriage is still a miscarriage. The fact that this discussion is tending toward becoming a semantics debate demonstrates that language is an imperfect tool, but language itself certainly doesn't change either reality or your own perception of it.


Furthermore, on the contrary: accepting the fact that reproduction is a hard-coded objective is liberating. Self-awareness makes you conscious of your instincts, urges and drives. Self-determination allows you to choose your own goals.

And, honestly. The girl in question doesn't have either. I'd like to say she's probably suffered some kind of abuse, but I don't know. Either way she's doing an immense amount of harm to her own body and has seemingly chosen to remain oblivious of it, which tells me that she isn't really in tune with what she is.
2008-04-20, 7:33 PM #80
bwaha, i have revitalized the thread with her one letter

personally, i think she's had the project come due at the end of the year and she never finished it so she tipped off the paper about it to be too controversial for her to turn it in

anyone else agree?
Holy soap opera Batman. - FGR
DARWIN WILL PREVENT THE DOWNFALL OF OUR RACE. - Rob
Free Jin!
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