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☖ Forums → Discussion Forum → I have a DSi
I have a DSi
2009-04-01, 11:08 PM #1
hurray!

I have a new handheld before any (non importing) people in the US. :D
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)------@%
2009-04-01, 11:26 PM #2
So did you test the camera on any kangaroos?
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
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2009-04-02, 4:04 AM #3
I am now posting from my DSi.
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)------@%
2009-04-02, 4:52 AM #4
I wants one. I don't have any GBA games, and then I can give my DS Lite to Izzy.
2009-04-02, 6:36 AM #5
A friend of mine once said "I am now posting from my wii" and that's pretty the last time he ever bothered going on the net with the wii (not counting standard online gaming)
You can't judge a book by it's file size
2009-04-02, 7:17 AM #6
Originally posted by Martyn:
I wants one. I don't have any GBA games, and then I can give my DS Lite to Izzy.


Get another DS Lite, save some cash, and end up with a DS with longer battery life. Oh, and no stupid gimmick software. (Seriously, the "music player" doesn't even support MP3)
2009-04-02, 7:52 AM #7
No mp3? Now that's just sad
You can't judge a book by it's file size
2009-04-02, 8:01 AM #8
Hmm, web browser, music player, camera? All things my phone has better versions of. Yup, sticking with my lite.
2009-04-02, 9:38 AM #9
My main reason for getting one would be for (and obviously i would wait to see if this happened) the DS store. Back catalogue NES and SNES games would be A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.
2009-04-02, 10:03 AM #10
Originally posted by Martyn:
My main reason for getting one would be for (and obviously i would wait to see if this happened) the DS store. Back catalogue NES and SNES games would be A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.


The DS is too slow to run most SNES games (at least not without major speedhacks and other unpleasantness), and I haven't seen any mention of a "virtual console" for the DS as far as NES anyway.

Seriously, the PSP even struggles with some of the higher-end SNES games like Starfox and Super Mario RPG, and it's over triple the speed of the DS (even the DSi with it's additional RAM and faster CPU don't come close to the PSP).
2009-04-02, 12:33 PM #11
Matty is spoiling my dreams '(

But seriously? PSP can't hack SNES games? Is there a reason why not that can be made apparent to someone without a CompSci degree? Someone like me!
2009-04-02, 12:35 PM #12
Too slow.
2009-04-02, 12:38 PM #13
Originally posted by Martyn:
Matty is spoiling my dreams '(

But seriously? PSP can't hack SNES games? Is there a reason why not that can be made apparent to someone without a CompSci degree? Someone like me!


The PSP can do /most/ SNES games, but anything with the FX or SA-1 chips struggle, as it requires much more processing power.

The DS struggles with even more basic games, because it has significantly less RAM and a much slower GPU. Also, the PSP has the benefit of having 2 CPUs, allowing it to offload the audio emulation onto the other CPU (think dual core processing). The DS, while it does have 2 CPUs (one is the GBA, one is the standard DS), it's not anywhere near strong enough to do most SNES games. Especially with sound.
2009-04-02, 12:41 PM #14
So indeed the reason is- Too slow.
2009-04-02, 12:44 PM #15
But if Nintendo is running a DS store, couldn't the company fund adequate port jobs of the SNES games? I mean, they don't have to make with the original ROMs. Are the games featured in the Virtual Console the original games' data for the Wii?
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
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2009-04-02, 1:15 PM #16
Originally posted by Martyn:
Is there a reason why not that can be made apparent to someone without a CompSci degree?
Overly-simplified explanation:

The SNES had a graphical composition chip called the VDP. The VDP is many times more powerful than the CPU. It's an extremely bizarre chip with a lot of strange features that don't exist in modern hardware, so all emulation of the VDP must be done in software. SuperFX and SA-1 add additional layers of complexity on top of that.

The GBA - and the DS, by direct inheritance - has a similar but less-powerful composition engine. Even though the DS processors are both a lot more powerful than the SNES CPU, it's just not enough to handle emulating the VDP. The PSP comes a lot closer but even it's not quite enough.
2009-04-02, 1:20 PM #17
Originally posted by ECHOMAN:
But if Nintendo is running a DS store, couldn't the company fund adequate port jobs of the SNES games? I mean, they don't have to make with the original ROMs. Are the games featured in the Virtual Console the original games' data for the Wii?
It's all very old code and it's all in Assembly. Even if the original developers retained symbolic data and documentation you're looking at a 100% rewrite because the DS instruction set is different (DS has ARM 9 and ARM 7 thumb, SNES has a custom-job Ricoh 5A22) and probably a redesign because the graphics hardware isn't as powerful.
2009-04-02, 1:21 PM #18
Originally posted by ECHOMAN:
But if Nintendo is running a DS store, couldn't the company fund adequate port jobs of the SNES games? I mean, they don't have to make with the original ROMs. Are the games featured in the Virtual Console the original games' data for the Wii?


Virtual Console games are essentially emulators running ROMs (as a matter of fact, early n64 emulation was simply taking the Virtual Console emulator and sticking a different N64 ROM inside). While Nintendo would have the added benefit of having complete documented specs, and dev kits to get every ounce of power out of the DS, the fact of the matter is you're still running emulation.

In order to completely redo the game for the DS, while possible, would require having all the original game code and assets. Many companies are not that lucky. Also, doing so would vastly increase the cost of porting the games. You'd be looking at something more like the Chrono Trigger remake than a simple, cheap Virtual Console emulation.
2009-04-02, 1:28 PM #19
Speaking of consoles that are huge cluster****s of obscure hardware making them difficult to emulate, the PS2 is awful in that respect. It relies on a lot of PS1 hardware, with new PS2 hardware added in.
2009-04-02, 1:58 PM #20
i preordered mine

2009-04-02, 2:01 PM #21
Originally posted by Darth:
Speaking of consoles that are huge cluster****s of obscure hardware making them difficult to emulate, the PS2 is awful in that respect. It relies on a lot of PS1 hardware, with new PS2 hardware added in.

Nothing compared to the PS3.
First gen models had the PS2 chip actually inside, allowing for 100% hardware based emulation, then it was removed and now that giant 2 terraflops supercomputer can't even emulate PS2 games at anything resembling playable.
Meanwhile my 8800 can emulate PS2 games at or above 60 FPS.

**** you sony.
2009-04-02, 2:06 PM #22
alpha1 you should post your ds info

2009-04-02, 2:08 PM #23
Originally posted by Darth:
Speaking of consoles that are huge cluster****s of obscure hardware making them difficult to emulate, the PS2 is awful in that respect. It relies on a lot of PS1 hardware, with new PS2 hardware added in.


Fast symmetric access to the framebuffer, which is where about 90% of the PS2's graphical effects come from. Xbox 1 has similar issues but it's used in far fewer games.

Gamecube is the easiest of that generation to emulate. I'm pretty surprised that it's taken this long to get a working emulator, actually. Dolphin can play a lot of commercial games at full speed (including Metroid Prime if you have a fast enough CPU, and Wind Waker works but there's no sound).
2009-04-02, 2:11 PM #24
Originally posted by Tiberium_Empire:
Nothing compared to the PS3.
How, exactly, does the PS2 hardware make it more difficult to emulate the PS3? Please explain in paragraph form.
2009-04-02, 2:23 PM #25
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Fast symmetric access to the framebuffer, which is where about 90% of the PS2's graphical effects come from. Xbox 1 has similar issues but it's used in far fewer games.

Gamecube is the easiest of that generation to emulate. I'm pretty surprised that it's taken this long to get a working emulator, actually. Dolphin can play a lot of commercial games at full speed (including Metroid Prime if you have a fast enough CPU, and Wind Waker works but there's no sound).


Yeah, I was shocked at how poorly most PS2 games ran on my Macbook Pro. I then decided to research it, read all about the hardware complexities, and then determined it was time to dig out my PS2 so I could play FF12 again...
2009-04-02, 2:44 PM #26
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Fast symmetric access to the framebuffer, which is where about 90% of the PS2's graphical effects come from. Xbox 1 has similar issues but it's used in far fewer games.

Gamecube is the easiest of that generation to emulate. I'm pretty surprised that it's taken this long to get a working emulator, actually. Dolphin can play a lot of commercial games at full speed (including Metroid Prime if you have a fast enough CPU, and Wind Waker works but there's no sound).


And it can emulate the Wii as well, at nearly as good. I was playing Brawl earlier in 720p :D

The more significant issue is minor graphical effects and crashing, not speed, which is pretty surprising.

Meanwhile, PS2 emulators are still pretty damn terrible. Even when they do run well, the graphical effects look absolutely terrible.
2009-04-02, 2:50 PM #27
Originally posted by Cool Matty:
And it can emulate the Wii as well, at nearly as good. I was playing Brawl earlier in 720p :D

The more significant issue is minor graphical effects and crashing, not speed, which is pretty surprising.

Meanwhile, PS2 emulators are still pretty damn terrible. Even when they do run well, the graphical effects look absolutely terrible.


I was able to get FF12 running at a smooth framerate with no graphical issues..... on a $4000 brand new Precision laptop with insane specs....
2009-04-02, 3:16 PM #28
Originally posted by Darth:
I was able to get FF12 running at a smooth framerate with no graphical issues..... on a $4000 brand new Precision laptop with insane specs....


I have no problems with framerate on my PC. It's crashes and absolutely terrible graphical errors that aggravate the hell out of me.
2009-04-02, 3:27 PM #29
Cool Matty, I have the Raedon HD 3870 card. Would Dolphin work on this?

2009-04-02, 3:30 PM #30
Originally posted by Cool Matty:
I have no problems with framerate on my PC. It's crashes and absolutely terrible graphical errors that aggravate the hell out of me.


See, I tried it on my MBP, and it just couldn't handle FF12. It could handle most other games I tried though, but they all had annoying graphical issues and such. FF12 was the only one I tried that actually looked fine and was stable, but it was still unplayable because it was slow as all hell.
2009-04-02, 3:57 PM #31
Joncy and Matty - thanks :)

Joncy and Matty - booooo :( I want back catalogue on DSi...
2009-04-02, 5:07 PM #32
I was able to get FF12 running at about half speed on my Mac Pro a while back. It looked horrific, but that's not too surprising given what they have to do to get the framebuffer effects to render properly. I think, for most PS2 games, you'll end up staring at a 256x256 texture render target like 90% of the time.

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