Looks like it's coming to an end right now...fingers crossed for the kids

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/03/russia.school/index.html

------------------
Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonk WoW Petition <- SIGN!
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

I feel sorry for them. They have the same negotiator as the Moscow Theater situation, and we all know how well that was dealt with.

I mean, hurray, 26 people saved, but the chances of them getting many more out (alive) just isn't very high.

------------------
Roach - Gyring and gimbling in the wabe...
0 of 14.

I do hope Russia handles this better than they did with the Moscow Theater situation.

------------------
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)

---------@%

No chance.

I'm watching live footage now, this is the biggest cluster**** I've ever seen in my life. There are no containment lines. People are running around everywhere: troops, civilians, anyone. No coordination. None. As the troops are having a firefight near the school gym the townspeople are themselves going into the gym to get the hostages....none of whom are being brought out uninjured or conscious.

Some of the rebels have even escaped into the town itself through the military lines.

This is absolutely nuts.

------------------
Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonk WoW Petition <- SIGN!
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

It seems it went well enough, considering the circumstances. It wasn't an easy situation to begin with, crazy terrorists keeping so many hostages and not even comminicating anymore. The authority had only bad choices left, yet something had to be done. Storming the building is the very traditional Russian way of handling situations like this.

EDIT: Considering the direr than expected circumstances, I edited one comment away...

...are you watching the same footage I am? The russian military has completely lost control.

------------------
Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonk WoW Petition <- SIGN!
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Uhhuh... Yeah, I'm now a little wiser than a few minutes ago. I agree, it didn't go that well...

------------------
Frozen by ICARUS

Reporter inside the gym says firefight still going on inside, building is burnt out and at least 100 bodies on floor

------------------
Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonk WoW Petition <- SIGN!
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Yikes.

------------------
You could no more evade my wrath than you could your own shadow.

Good lord. My prayers for those kids:(

****ing Bastards. I hope the people who are taking the children hostage burn in hell. Prayers for the kids...

Well.. on the brighter side.. maybe Russia will ally itself more closely with the USA in the War on Terror. We need a pact, we'll help them out with Chechnya if they'll help us out with the Middle East.

They say that ten of the dead attackers are from arabic countries. It would be interesting to see who was behind this I think.

Yeah, I was reading about this on Yahoo; absolutely tragic.

Send in Rainbow!

Good greif. I should start reading the news. I have no idea whats going on anywhere since I've been in college. Sounds like the Russian military doesn't care about anything except killing all of the attackers.

How could it have been resolved with less bloodshed?

I agree that this situation is very tragic, but how else would you have liked the Russians to treat this situation? This is exactly how any country would have done it, they didn't have much choice. Please, enlighten us with your brilliant military and strategical know how. I'm sure you would have handled the situation MUCH better; and hey, you wouldn't have even killed the terrorists! How noble. Give me a break.

Do you honestly think that the militant Islamic terrorist factions really care who they kill? I doubt it. Of course there are some Russian terrorist groups as well, so I guess we can't factor that out completely.

Oh yes, let's help them kill freedom fighters from a region where Russia decided it would be a wonderful idea to test their "Silent Night" tactics on innocent farming villages. That'd make the rest of the world very sympathetic to our cause.

i think you guys are being a bit harsh on the russian military here,

In the Moscow Theater seige there was little or no chance of the attackers ever giving up, they walk in with explosives strapped to their chests, pretty clear what they are going to do, the only question is when.

The longer these things go on the more media coverage the terrorists get and hence the more they help their cause on the worldwide front, then they blow themselves up taking who ever is with them in the process.

the theather seige rescue was althogether a success, the terroists had planted women right in the middle of the theater with explosives strapped to them, any attempt to take the theater with them still awake would have meant nearly complete death for all those in the theater...the only reason the gas killed people was to do with the health of a lot of them, the time it took to get so many outside and the way they rested their heads when asleep due to the gas.

on the whole i'd say the russians did the right thing in that situation, most anaylists i've heard think the number who died was well within any other "convential" method they could have tried...

as for the school, the russians didn't start this one, it was a reaction due to what the terrorists were doing inside, shooting the children/adults, if they hadn't have acted when they did many more would have died.

Gotta remember we are dealing with people who are willing to blow themselves up here, what thought do you honestly think they have with respect to the children they are holding hostage? none.

There was never likely to be a peaceful solution it was all about how many they could get out before they started killing, 26 is a lot better than none.

Many of the Russian terrorists are Muslims form the Chechnya area.

Hey, the United States is good at killing freedom fighters. And it's become pretty apparent that those in power don't give a **** what the rest of the world thinks about us anymore.

Well, this is terrible. I don't understand why people can't just get along, we all bleed red, we all breathe the same air, there's really no difference between any of us... Yet we like to kill one another for little to no reason at all...It's things like this that happen, when I wish a comet would just come and strike us all down and put the universe out of its misery.

In my eyes, there is only ONE thing that will stop these terrorists.. And that's swift action, with no negotiations. In my eyes, the terrorists are going to kill anyways, as is usually the case. Russia is the perfect place for this, they have the spetznaz...

I heard an old story about the spetznas, where there was an hostage taking at a bank or something, some building....Anyways, the terrorists demanded something, and sent one of their men out. The Spetznaz just waited for the man to approach them, then simply executed him in front of his friends. Then, they said a message aloud for all the terrorists inside to hear, something along the lines of "If you don't give up, and come out right now, we're coming in, and this will happen to each one of you." The terrorists, gave up.

This is something we need, if someone takes a friggin child hostage, or whatever, sure, distract the guy, guy's, whatever, get in there and kick their asses. Screw this negotiating crap.

This all relates for me back to the thread about the child kidnapper getting shot in the head and surviving, waking up in a coffin days later. If someone takes a friggin child hostage, or threatens his life, you kick his friggin ***. You don't try to talk him down. You kick, his, stupid, terrorist, ***.

Yeah, I also hear the Spetznaz shoot lightning bolts from their eyes, and fireballs from their arses. The Spetznaz are long far cry from their past "glory," but many don't think they were ever that good in the first place, at least not compaired to the special forces of the West.

But that wouldn't work in this case... If you're willing to die, there is no incentive to give in. They (bank robbers) could have just said "Then come in and get us!"

Who the hell cares who's "better"? If they're better, GET THEM IN THERE. The point is, DO SOMETHING.



That's when you agree with what a terrorist says to you.

It makes no difference what the terrorist wants, says, etc. It's not about the terrorist, screw the terrorist. It's about the hostage. The faster you get in there, and do something, the less likely there is to be any hostage execution...

2 Hour Standoff With Negotiations = Possible loss of large ammounts of life, as well as time for the terrorists to think of new plans, decisions, demands, ESCAPE ROUTES (like in this case) etc.


KGB, Spteznaz, Special Forces, storm a building terrorists are in, ending the hostage ordeal in lets say, an hour = Less loss of innocent life, puts the terrorists in a state of confusion as they wouldn't be expecting it, and if they were, it would draw their attention away from the hostages.

That's why hindsight's a beautiful thing, Temperamental. You can look back and say, "Well, of course this was the logical course of action."

However, when you're having to decide whether or not to actively put those kids in further danger than they're already in, it's a bit of a tougher decision.

Going in shooting is pretty much the stupidest plan anyone could come up with. Especially with terrorists who don't mind dying for their cause. And especially when they have the place wired with explosives.

The concept of "shoot first, ask questions later" costs more innocent lives than needed. Sometimes the best approach is to negotiate with terrorists.

Yes, sometimes negotiations are good.

But you can't deny, that sometimes, negotiations are bad, or aren't useful. Its these cases, where action, instead of inaction, is needed. This, was one of those cases, and let's see how it turned out....

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. You must have seen that I only just learned of this so I realise I probably didn't have all of the info. I was mostly commenting on reports of government forces fighting militants while civilians and media are running all over with no containment lines. Thats what I had heard of when I posted.
What's with the last part of your comment? Can't I just comment on the state of something without having to agree with or present a whole new strategy? I'm hoping that you were just in a bad mood when you posted that.

I'm not saying that negotiations are always the answer, but to say that someone acted in horrible ignorance because the answer, which seems obvious now, was not obvious to them then like you feel it was is an act of ignorance.

I didn't quite understand what you meant by that, can you re-iterate?

hahahaha you never fail to disappoint

And you, Sine Nomen, can always be counted on to lock threads for anti-republican comments, attack anti-americans, and ban people for anti-republican jokes(Mikus?)

It's so comfy in my armchair.

You fail to realize what Mikus was banned for then...

And according to the article the Russians were under a cease fire with the hostage takers when they went in, to collect bodies. An explosion went off and that's when the shooting started, they didn't go in guns blazing.

I suppose 200 dead is better than 1,200 but it's still a sad day.

There were some feasible reasons to ban Mikus, but after warnings he was banned for anti-republican opinions and a racist joke that didn't have a race in it.

i think my custom title explains it, connection.

Stop the arguments!!!!!