Massassi Forums Logo

This is the static archive of the Massassi Forums. The forums are closed indefinitely. Thanks for all the memories!

You can also download Super Old Archived Message Boards from when Massassi first started.

"View" counts are as of the day the forums were archived, and will no longer increase.

ForumsDiscussion Forum → Giant ****** outside the known universe is sucking us in
Giant ****** outside the known universe is sucking us in
2010-03-25, 2:38 PM #1
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/03/100322-dark-flow-matter-outside-universe-multiverse/

Quote:
"Dark flow" is no fluke, suggests a new study that strengthens the case for unknown, unseen "structures" lurking on the outskirts of creation.

In 2008 scientists reported the discovery of hundreds of galaxy clusters streaming in the same direction at more than 2.2 million miles (3.6 million kilometers) an hour.

This mysterious motion can't be explained by current models for distribution of mass in the universe. So the researchers made the controversial suggestion that the clusters are being tugged on by the gravity of matter outside the known universe.

Now the same team has found that the dark flow extends even deeper into the universe than previously reported: out to at least 2.5 billion light-years from Earth.

After using two additional years' worth of data and tracking twice the number of galaxy clusters, "we clearly see the flow, we clearly see it pointing in the same direction," said study leader Alexander Kashlinsky, an astrophysicist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Maryland.

"It looks like a very coherent flow."

The find adds to the case that chunks of matter got pushed outside the known universe shortly after the big bang—which in turn hints that our universe is part of something larger: a multiverse.

Dark Flow's Extended Reach

Kashlinsky and colleagues first noticed the dark flow when studying the way gas in galaxy clusters interacts with the cosmic microwave background radiation. This burst of light is thought to have been released just 380,000 years after the big bang and now permeates the universe.

(Related: "Universe 20 Million Years Older Than Thought.")

Data from the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) can show the minute temperature changes created as the cosmic microwave background radiation moves through gases in galaxy clusters.

These gases scatter light from the cosmic microwave background radiation as it passes through the clusters, similar to the way Earth's atmosphere can scatter starlight, making some stars twinkle.

But the clusters are also moving relative to the background radiation, so the scattered light gets distorted further by the Doppler effect. This distortion appears in the form of temperature shifts in WMAP data, which can reveal the clusters' direction and speed.

"It is very difficult to isolate [the temperature change] for each individual cluster," Kashlinsky said, so the original study had examined 700 clusters.

The new study is based on the collective motion of about 1,400 galaxy clusters, and seeing dark flow with the greater number of clusters gives the researchers more confidence in their result.

In addition, the team tested their analysis method by comparing the x-ray brightness of certain clusters with the strength of temperature changes seen in the WMAP data. Brighter clusters—those with more hot gases—would be expected to have greater affects on the cosmic microwave background, and that's what the new study confirmed.

Kashlinsky speculates that the dark flow extends "all the way across the visible universe," or about 47 billion light-years, which would fit with the notion that the clusters are being pulled by matter that lies beyond known horizons.

Dark flow, he said, "would be much more difficult to explain theoretically if it extended [2.5 billion light-years] and then just stopped."


Or maybe it's just your mom.
2010-03-25, 2:42 PM #2
Or mb lulz.
The Plothole: a home for amateur, inclusive, collaborative stories
http://forums.theplothole.net
2010-03-25, 2:44 PM #3
Ford Prefect was right, the universe is a conical bathtub, and everything is swirling down the plughole!
My girlfriend paid a lot of money for that tv; I want to watch ALL OF IT. - JM
2010-03-25, 2:55 PM #4
I should have known practicing Falcon Punches was a bad idea.
"Oh my god. That just made me want to start cutting" - Aglar
"Why do people from ALL OVER NORTH AMERICA keep asking about CATS?" - Steven, 4/1/2009
2010-03-25, 3:09 PM #5
The universe is a milkshake, we are being drank.
2010-03-25, 5:51 PM #6
*Waits for the inevitable crack-pot time paradox theories*

Oh, oh, I know! Maybe it was caused by this thing that accelerated to the speed of light and has infinite mass!
2010-03-25, 6:01 PM #7
Originally posted by Alco:
*Waits for the inevitable crack-pot time paradox theories*

Oh, oh, I know! Maybe it was caused by this thing that accelerated to the speed of light and has infinite mass!


Your mom in a donut eating contest?
2010-03-25, 6:02 PM #8
This sucks.
2010-03-27, 4:53 AM #9
infinite mass means infinite attraction, that would mean we would be attracted with 3 million kilometers per second, which is not the case

oh, and
Originally posted by Rob:
This sucks.

I laughed
2010-03-27, 8:39 AM #10
Infinite mass only has infinite attraction if it has existed for infinite time in a finite space.

This is impossible, because infinite mass in a finite space has infinite density, and that is not the case.

But, infinite mass in an infinite space has a density of zero.

Therefore, mass must be finite. In which case, there can not be infinite attraction.

Also if there was infinite mass that has existed for infinite time, we'd be bombarded by infinite energy, since all matter emits electro magnetic radiation, unless there was infinite space and that infinite mass was infinitely distributed in it. In that case, there would either be no energy or infinite energy.
2010-03-27, 9:01 AM #11
That was infinitely confusing.
2010-03-27, 10:47 AM #12
I was reading this a couple weeks ago, it's interesting as ****. I would love to live in a time where we could actually explore that area, what the hell could it even be?

If it's outside the universe itself...Wouldn't whatever it is have to be something that existed BEFORE the big bang then?
2010-03-27, 10:52 AM #13
Originally posted by JM:
Infinite mass only has infinite attraction if it has existed for infinite time in a finite space.

This is impossible, because infinite mass in a finite space has infinite density, and that is not the case.

But, infinite mass in an infinite space has a density of zero.

Therefore, mass must be finite. In which case, there can not be infinite attraction.

Also if there was infinite mass that has existed for infinite time, we'd be bombarded by infinite energy, since all matter emits electro magnetic radiation, unless there was infinite space and that infinite mass was infinitely distributed in it. In that case, there would either be no energy or infinite energy.


Prove it.
Completely Overrated Facebook:http://www.facebook.com/pages/Comple...59732330769611
A community dedicated to discussing all things entertainment.
2010-03-27, 10:55 AM #14
Originally posted by 'Thrawn[numbarz:
;1072504']Or maybe it's just your mom.


Perfect execution.
2010-03-27, 4:13 PM #15
Originally posted by JM:

But, infinite mass in an infinite space has a density of zero.


Nope, its indeterminate.
2010-03-27, 4:36 PM #16
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Nope, its indeterminate.

This.
nope.
2010-03-27, 4:50 PM #17
Quote:
Giant ****** outside the known universe is sucking us in

tofu.

tofu sucks.
2010-03-27, 5:43 PM #18
1 to. to be precise
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-03-27, 10:01 PM #19
Originally posted by Jon`C:
tofu.

tofu sucks.

I actually remember that.
>MegaTofus.
2010-03-28, 3:46 PM #20
Originally posted by JM:
snip


hmm, yes... you're right
2010-03-28, 3:56 PM #21
Originally posted by JM:
This is impossible, because infinite mass in a finite space has infinite density, and that is not the case.

But, infinite mass in an infinite space has a density of zero.

Therefore, mass must be finite. In which case, there can not be infinite attraction.
What you're saying is complete nonsense. From limits you get ∞/∞ = (1/∞)/(1/∞) = 0/0. You can't say anything about the density of an infinite volume with infinite mass.
2010-03-28, 6:05 PM #22
Originally posted by Temperamental:
If it's outside the universe itself...Wouldn't whatever it is have to be something that existed BEFORE the big bang then?


Makes sense. For the Big Bang to have happened, something must have been there in the first place, I guess. It's not like someone just turned on a lightbulb.
幻術
2010-03-28, 8:17 PM #23
Originally posted by Koobie:
Makes sense. For the Big Bang to have happened, something must have been there in the first place, I guess. It's not like someone just turned on a lightbulb.


It's outside the known universe, as in "what we've currently observed/mapped", IIUC.
2010-03-28, 8:34 PM #24
Originally posted by Koobie:
Makes sense. For the Big Bang to have happened, something must have been there in the first place, I guess. It's not like someone just turned on a lightbulb.
So let me get this straight


what you guys are saying is that time existed before the universe did.
2010-03-28, 8:44 PM #25
Time created the universe so it had something to measure itself against. Duh.
2010-03-28, 10:10 PM #26
The universe created by the big bang is already bigger than the visible universe. You don't need any further speculation.
2010-03-28, 10:14 PM #27
the universe is a 4-cone
2010-03-28, 10:20 PM #28
Originally posted by Cool Matty:
Time created the universe so it had something to measure itself against. Duh.

No Kyle Katarn did so he could use something to measure his massive p<genki>
2010-03-28, 10:50 PM #29
peni?
2010-03-29, 1:00 AM #30
I have always been confused by the known universe.

If it's only what we know about, why do we think it's expanding? Are we really that self centered to think that knowledge of the universe equates to us creating it?

blasphemy.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2010-03-29, 1:15 AM #31
'Expansion of the universe' = everything is literally moving farther apart. We think it's expanding because it is. Literally.

The observable universe (i.e. our knowledge of the universe) is defined as a sphere such that the radius grows at the speed of light, but that has nothing to do with anything.
2010-03-29, 1:29 PM #32
Yeah, that's more or less how I visualize it. I had too many science classes as a child that demonstrated the expansion by drawing dots on a balloon, without explaining that there isn't (as far as we know) some sort of balloon-like membrane existing around the universe. I have to struggle to not think of it that way every time I think about it.

I also propose that this super massive force is the gravity from the Library of Babel.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2010-03-29, 1:36 PM #33
Well, I always assumed the point of the balloon demonstration wasn't so much that there is a membrane around the universe, rather that the universe IS the membrane. It's a dimensional demonstration...a 2 dimensional object (a surface, or membrane) expanding in 3 dimensional space.

Still a mind**** when you go deeper with it, but interesting anyway.
Warhead[97]
2010-03-29, 2:13 PM #34
Originally posted by BobTheMasher:
Well, I always assumed the point of the balloon demonstration wasn't so much that there is a membrane around the universe, rather that the universe IS the membrane. It's a dimensional demonstration...a 2 dimensional object (a surface, or membrane) expanding in 3 dimensional space.

Still a mind**** when you go deeper with it, but interesting anyway.


Yeah, that's the part they always left out, and I still have the same image in my head.

I had constructed a lot of epic space adventures in my spaceship around that model.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2010-03-29, 2:42 PM #35
Originally posted by Jon`C:
So let me get this straight


what you guys are saying is that time existed before the universe did.


My theory - and keep in mind, my knowledge of physics equal to that of your average frog - is that time (and space) are essentially infinite.

I'm not talking so much about the "known" universe, but -the- universe (or multiverse, or whatever it is). My reasoning behind this is that for it to be finite, there must be a starting point. And that, to me, makes even less sense.
幻術

↑ Up to the top!