I'm still waiting for my Precision M4400 to just disintegrate because CM wills it so since plastic is the devil apparently...

You're crazy! Obviously the physics say you are wrong and stupid!



I'm still waiting for my Macbook to bend because Jon`C wills it so.

Stop it, you sound hysterical.

I've made a concise and well-reasoned argument about aluminum and I have provided facts to support my claim. The burden of proof is now on you to provide evidence that a modern HIPS + magnesium alloy laptop is less durable. Anecdotal evidence is insufficient, but I'll be satisfied with materials tables.

A. You provided uncited references as to the capabilities of aluminum. I'm basically taking you on your word, that's hardly any better than anecodotal evidence.
B. I don't care enough.
C. You've mentioned that aluminum has issues, yet you have not given any sort of "factual" comparison to plastic, giving no one any reason to believe that the typical plastic found on laptops is better. (Simply put, you say Aluminum is bad, but do not explain why it's worse than the plastic)

Edit: Oh yeah, forgot, you do know what a circle is, right? You know, where it loops, never ends, etc?

You keep saying plastic, you seem to be forgetting the magnesium alloy part...

I've never had an aluminum body laptop, but I can say that out of the 3 laptops I've had, two have sucked, they just fell apart. They were very well cared for, just terrible designs. My friend's macbook is 3 or 4 years old now and is still going like brand new. I don't really give a **** about drop damage, if you drop it you should expect damage. I'm concerned with opening the lid one day and having the entire lid break off in my hand, or not being able to close it properly to begin with because the damn case screws pulled through the plastic and the hinge bulges out instead of rotates.

[QUOTE=Cool Matty]A. You provided uncited references as to the capabilities of aluminum. I'm basically taking you on your word, that's hardly any better than anecodotal evidence.[/QUOTE]All of these facts are easily-verifiable by reading your preferred supplier's material data sheets.

The HIPS (High-Impact Polystyrene) used on the exterior of a modern laptop is very strong. Its superficial strength is higher or comparable to the anodized aluminum alloy used on the Macbook Pro. It also has a lower density, and better thermal and electrical properties for the application. Aluminum also has no long-term aesthetic benefit: anodized aluminum is protected from oxidation (rust) by a 2 micron layer of aluminum oxide. When this layer of aluminum oxide is worn away, the surface quickly oxidizes and takes on a cloudy or speckled appearance. Worn HIPS looks oily, but I think a worn Macbook Pro looks a lot like mold.

The magnesium alloy used for the interior chassis of a modern laptop has at least 150% the strength and 33% the density of the Macbook Pro aluminum alloy. Magnesium alloys have almost completely replaced aluminum alloys for power tools, jet engines, automotive and even high-end sporting goods. They have excellent structural, thermal and electrical properties.

I know what a circle is. I also know what a circular argument is, and I'm not making one. If you're going to be obstinate enough to accuse me of a logical fallacy you should probably choose a correct one.

The Sony Vaio SZ series (e.g: 300 series) is an example of a laptop where the buyer gets the choice of choosing either magnesium alloy, carbon fiber or premium carbon fiber for the external casing. I've worked on dozens of these & I can tell you that the rear LCD housings are prone to cracking/breaking due to the LCD hinge screws becoming loose over time. I've never seen an aluminum LCD housing crack when this same issue occurs (e.g: VPR Matrix). The screw holes also snap like twigs if the screw head pops off & the user attempts to open or close the lid. This same model also uses aluminum covers anywhere that heat is generated (e.g: thermal assembly & memory slots) as well as for the palmrest assembly. I personally think that all of these materials are viable options but aluminum is much better at masking design flaws that all manufacturers have. I think that we can probably all agree that all of these materials are good for laptops. There's a reason that all of these materials are being used (not because the designers are stupid & not simply for aesthetic purposes).

A. Because I'm sure you read "supplier material data sheets" all the time. Yea, sure.
B. Well since you /said/ its superficial strength is better it must be! Also, and this is a big point, just because you use a "strong" plastic doesn't mean it isn't used in a way that would make it more durable to wear and tear. It'll still fail at the joints, seams, bends, etc. It's the difference between a Toughbook and a regular laptop, really.
C. Not giving a crap about the alloy since I don't drop my laptops from 6 feet everyday. It does nothing for the outer durability of the laptops, as I don't recall seeing any laptops covered in the alloy.
D. No, you're continuing a circular argument. It takes at least two to have an argument. No matter what you come at me with it's going right back at you.

You keep citing Sony, which I've never been impressed with. How about the Dell Latitude and Precision models made in the last few years? I've had multiple ones of those, and like I've said multiple times, they've held up better than my MacBook Pro...

I can only comment on what I've worked on. I mentioned Sony because they have a diverse lineup & they have several high-end models. I haven't worked on any Dells w/ aluminum or magnesium alloy. I do think that most of the Dells that I've worked on have been a pleasure & that they're often designed w/ both the customer & the technician in mind (e.g: allowing quick access to CMOS batteries). As I've stated, I personally think that all of these materials are viable options (that's why they're all being used). My only point is that there are a ton of laptops out there w/ design flaws & aluminum is better at masking those flaws. I actually own an old Acer laptop that has the crappiest plastic on the planet but the only design flaw that it has (that I've experienced) is w/ the touchpad button(s) breaking internally. This is a quick fix w/ a soldering iron (melting) but it's also a problem that you wouldn't have w/ a MacBook or MacBook Pro (it's quite common w/ a multitude of other manufacturers).

Darth: I've seen a few Latitudes already with shoddy plastic remnants. Especially since I'm 99% sure it doesn't even use that HIPS plastic Jon`C mentions for large portions of it, as the stuff around the keyboard of one I had to work on was really thin, flimsy crap that is just waiting to crack.

Which specific model? If it's an older D series like a D600 or D800 then I'd believe it because they were made of flimsy plastic, but they haven't made those models in quite a few years now. The Dx20 series are when they moved to much more durable builds, and I had a D620 that I used for about 2 years, then handed it off to my mom who still uses it to this day and it's as good as new. The current E series ones are even more solid, and I know they don't have any "flimsy plastic around the keyboard".

Yea I work with D620's and 630's daily as well as E6400 and E4300 models and none of these have very flimsy plastics at all and are quite solid all around.

The laptops in question were about 4 years old IIRC. They're not mine so I do not have the model number on hand.

Your skill level at materials science matches your maturity.

P.S.: I don't know what the **** you think a circular argument is, but I'm sure as hell not making one.

Yes, my maturity, when we all know you're arguing here just to be arguing anyway, like you always do.

I don't consider your "skill level" at materials science to be anywhere near high enough to account for all variables, and the bias you have makes it even less informative. Otherwise your facts about plastic would translate more directly to real world results. Perhaps there's a lot to it that your passing Google-fu knowledge on the subject fails you?

P.S.: Call it whatever you like, I've already described myself.

You sure did.

You know, that'd be more of a burn if it weren't actually the whole point.

Jon, Matty isn't saying that you're making circular arguments, he's saying that the two of you are circling between the same two points. You're saying that the material properties of HIPS are superior to those of Aluminum, and he's saying that may be so but in his experience that doesn't equate to a real world superiority of wear-resistance.

There's just a bunch of other BS in y'all's posts.

Jeez saberopus, what is Jon`C going to have to talk about now? You just killed it.

Why wouldn't he? You aren't actually trying to debunk what he's said. You're just accusing him of lying!

It's basically the same as this:

Jon: Water has two hydrogen and one oxygen molecule.

CM: No it doesn't! Not in all the cases I've seen!

Jon: The burden of proof is on you. This is common knowledge. You can look at any reference citing the chemical properties of water.

CM: Yeah and I'm sure you've done that! You're just making this **** up! See how right I am??

Yeah, except it's not something so obvious, nor something so easily comparable. He's not an expert in the subject, and I would be shocked if he did anything more than read a bit on Google and Wikipedia. Plastic can be stronger than Aluminum, that's not even debatable, nor the point I started making. The point is, he doesn't know enough about the plastic used in laptops to make the sort of deductions that one is more durable against wear and tear than the other. Just because plastic, even a specific kind of plastic, has the ability to be stronger than aluminum for wear and tear, does not mean it IS in these use cases!

Also, I at least have something on my side, and that's lots and lots of real world examples (which many here seem to be backing me up on). As much as someone may discredit anecdotal evidence, anecdotal is better than nothing.

Oh, and finally, he's arguing just to be arguing in the first place.

Yet there's other anecdotal evidence here that disagrees with you, and your own personal anecdotal evidence is based on things like a 4 year old Dell laptop you worked on once which isn't indicitive at all of their current products.

Am I supposed to list off every laptop I've seen/worked with? Really? I think you can accept that I've seen it more than just in some old Dells.

But you're constantly pushing the fact that you haven't seen a well-made magnesium + plastic laptop. I (and Jon, Steven, and llibja as well) mention recent Dells, you say "oh no, the last one I worked on was flimsy", which was an old model that isn't made anymore, and you don't even acknowledge the current models that are in fact incredibly sturdy magnesium and plastic laptops.

You act like that's changed drastically in the past few years for laptops, and honestly I haven't seen such a significant difference. Yes, some better plastic is used in some models, but there have been laptops like IBM/Lenovo that have been "strong" for YEARS. Yet even THEY crack and fall apart.

Thinkpads are well-made magnesium + plastic and also durable as hell

Whoops Matty ninjaposted me

Plastics crack and aluminum warps el oh el

They HAVE changed in the past few years. The stuff Dell and HP are making their business laptops (and even some of their consumer laptops) out of now are lightyears better than what they were using 4-5+ years ago. I can't speak for Thinkpads cause I've only used a few and haven't owned any for long periods of time, but all my experience with the multiple Dells I've owned is that they haven't cracked and fell apart.

And back more to the topic and away from the pissing contest a bit: Pommy, fact of the matter is, I would only recommend a Mac to you if you absolutely want an OS X laptop. Don't buy a Mac and just decide to use OS X cause that's what comes with the Mac, and definitely don't buy a Mac to use solely as a Windows machine. I bought one to have an OS X machine to do some stuff that required OS X. I never use OS X on it now, it's basically a dedicated Windows machine, and it doesn't do that great of a job at it compared to other laptops I have.

Only buy a Mac if you absolutely want OS X, that's my advice. Switch to a Mac for OS X, don't switch to OS X (or bootcamp Windows) for a Mac (if that makes sense).

I do agree with the final point, in that if you get a Macbook, do not use it with Windows. mb does, but he's insane.

OS X is /amazing/ on laptops though, and Windows needs to shape up in that regard.

Oh yeah just to reiterate from the OP I'm not looking for or buying a new laptop (I have an X61t) haha I was just curious as to the opinion of this particular demographic

Personally I love OSX and if I were looking for a new laptop I would snatch a MBP

My laptop is mostly aluminum. I'm not concerned. Strength of the material isn't the only consideration, weight is also very important.

It's foolish to gauge the quality of a laptop's construction on what happens when you drop it. Laptops aren't meant to be dropped.

To actually answer the question : If you mean 'general purpose' as in 'versatile' definitely go with some type of convertible tablet.

Do the hinges not break on those after repeated use?

Everything breaks eventually. Don't think 'will it last forever' but instead think 'will it last until I want a new one'. Also, it depends on the manufacturer and the model and the individual unit, of course. The hinges are usually made of magnesium alloy and are hard to break, and are easy to replace too. Lastly, they are just like the hinges on a standard laptop - if you don't pick it up by the screen, they last forever.

All the google hits on the issue appear to be about gateways. So how about 'Get a convertible tablet that isn't a gateway'.

I like your style.