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☖ Forums → Discussion Forum → Kramer in court?
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Kramer in court?
2010-08-20, 12:03 PM #1
I received this e-mail. The first thing I thought is, wtf, Kramer is being sued or charged with something for saying the n-word? It's been in the news recently with that radio host who ended up having to retire over it.

Related to the subject of racism : http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/17/AR2010081704399.html?wpisrc=nl_pmopinions

You don't have to agree with this e-mail, and my posting it does not imply that I agree with it even if I do actually agree with it.

Quote:
Subj: Fw: Proud to be White




This is great. I have been wondering about why Whites are racists, and no other race is......




Proud to be White


Michael Richards makes his point..................


Michael Richards better known as Kramer from TVs Seinfeld does make a good point.




This was his defense speech in court after making racial comments in his comedy act. He makes some very interesting points....




Someone finally said it. How many are actually paying attention to this? There are African Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Arab Americans, etc.


And then there are just Americans. You pass me on the street and sneer in my direction. You call me 'White boy,' 'Cracker,' 'Honkey,' 'Whitey,' 'Caveman'... and that's OK..




But when I call you, ******, Kike, Towel head, Sand-******, Camel Jockey, Beaner, Gook, or Chink .. You call me a racist.




You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you... so why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live?




You have the United Negro College Fund. You have Martin Luther King Day.




You have Black History Month.. You have Cesar Chavez Day.




You have Yom Hashoah. You have Ma'uled Al-Nabi.




You have the NAACP. You have BET.... If we had WET (White Entertainment Television), we'd be racists. If we had a White Pride Day, you would call us racists.




If we had White History Month, we'd be racists.




If we had any organization for only whites to 'advance' OUR lives, we'd be racists.




We have a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, a Black Chamber of Commerce, and then we just have the plain Chamber of Commerce. Wonder who pays for that??




A white woman could not be in the Miss Black American pageant, but any color can be in the Miss America pageant.




If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships... You know we'd be racists.




There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges in the US .. Yet if there were 'White colleges', that would be a racist college.




In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race and rights. If we marched for our race and rights, you would call us racists.




You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.




You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a white police officer shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug dealer running from the law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist.




I am proud.... But you call me a racist.




Why is it that only whites can be racists??




There is nothing improper about this e- mail.. Let's see which of you are proud enough to send it on. I sadly don't think many will. That's why we have LOST most of OUR RIGHTS in this country. We won't stand up for ourselves!




BE PROUD TO BE WHITE!




It's not a crime YET ... but getting very close!
2010-08-20, 12:20 PM #2
This is silly.
nope.
2010-08-20, 12:21 PM #3
Worst thread ever.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-08-20, 12:27 PM #4
hahaha

I'd be surprised if Richards has actually been in court over that incident. I'm fairly sure he made no such speech in court. And I'm absolutely certain that that email is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2010-08-20, 12:33 PM #5
I've always thought it silly people forward emails like this before checking the authenticity. I find it even sillier that someone would actually start a thread over it. Reminds me when Kirby posted his email to Christopher Walken.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/proudwhite.asp
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2010-08-20, 4:07 PM #6
Considering it's JM I have 0% doubt that (despite the "it's not necessarily my personal opinion!") he agrees with that 100%, and that's why he posted it. This is also a compliment of sorts, because I refuse to believe even JM is dumb enough to think the guy would be using that in court to defend himself. Well actually "refuse to believe" is a stretch, but I did give him slightly more credit than that.
Looks like we're not going down after all, so nevermind.
2010-08-20, 4:17 PM #7
The e-mail, while it fails to avoid sounding it racist itself, makes valid points that I mistakenly thought you lot would be capable of discussing.
2010-08-20, 4:22 PM #8
If you're thinking of the "white pride" thing, then no. Minority pride movements arose as a direct response to the aspect of racism that says there's something shameful about being black, gay, etc. A "white pride" movement is illegitimate because it's not a response to an equivalent sense of shame about being white, it's a response to minority pride movements.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2010-08-20, 6:43 PM #9
Dammit, MacFarlane... Now I can't really post anything without being all "yeah what MacFarlane said +1.

To add to what MacFarlane said, and I believe he missed this key point: JM is a fool.
>>untie shoes
2010-08-20, 9:58 PM #10
Originally posted by JM:
The e-mail, while it fails to avoid sounding it racist itself, makes valid points that I mistakenly thought you lot would be capable of discussing.


You made a much larger mistake by thinking any of these points are valid.
:master::master::master:
2010-08-21, 4:38 AM #11
Always putting the white man down.
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
ᴸᶥᵛᵉ ᴼᵑ ᴬᵈᵃᵐ
2010-08-21, 7:57 AM #12
This isn't about whether or not someone is proud to be white (which it doesn't really make sense to be, in any important or useful way), but whether or not it is ok to use some slurs against other people, particularly minorities, which while it may not be as big a deal if they are also doin' it to you, isn't really good.
2010-08-21, 3:13 PM #13
White history month is every other month.
2010-08-21, 3:18 PM #14
Yeah, this is pretty much the most racist thing I've ever read. You'd have to be an extremely simpleminded, self-centered, uneducated white "middle class" pleb to even think a single point this rant makes is "valid."
2010-08-21, 3:44 PM #15
Lets see then.

Quote:
A white woman could not be in the Miss Black American pageant, but any color can be in the Miss America pageant.
Valid.

Quote:
If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships... You know we'd be racists.
Valid.

Quote:
There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges in the US .. Yet if there were 'White colleges', that would be a racist college.
Valid.

Quote:
In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race and rights. If we marched for our race and rights, you would call us racists.
Valid.

Quote:
You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.
Valid.

Quote:
You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a white police officer shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug dealer running from the law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist.
Racist.



The problem in this thread is that you all ignored the article I linked in the very first post. I should have just quoted it instead. So here you go.

Quote:
The idea that one should never have one's feelings hurt -- and the violent means to which some will resort in the protection of their own self-regard -- has done harm rivaling evil. It isn't a stretch to say that the greatest threat to free speech is, in fact, "sensitivity."


This isn't about racism. This is about racism being used to destroy free speech. But, you probably won't read this part.
2010-08-21, 3:48 PM #16
Racism isn't destroying free speech. It's not illegal to say racist things. It just makes you an idiot if you say racist things.
>>untie shoes
2010-08-21, 3:54 PM #17
Saying "Valid." doesn't actually make them valid...
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-08-21, 4:07 PM #18
Despite the fact that we have a black president, there is clearly still a dominant white power and social structure in the US.

Minority movements are a response to that. White movements are the result of uneducated and xenophobic trash feeling left out of something they don't understand.

Besides, you could have a ****ing Miss German-American pageant if you want. Having a Miss White America is simple minded and not celebrating any sort of distinct culture and social movement.

Think of how many more blacks can trace their heritage to...

Oh ****!

Often the distinct group that they descend from is gone, or they simply don't know because their known ancestors were snagged in the night hundreds of years ago. At this point, their only, let's say, 'genealogical identity' is that of the African race. For similar reasons, 'latin pride' is common, because a large number of people simply don't have one single heritage.

While those points may in some cases be accurate, that doesn't mean that the way you are using them is valid.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2010-08-21, 4:41 PM #19
Looking at the points you marked as valid:

1. You also can't participate in Miss Midget if you're tall, which however doesn't make it discriminatory against tall people.

2-3. You can disagree with affirmative action, but these things were established to act against black people not having equal opportunity because they're not white. There is absolutely no need for "white students scholarships" or "white colleges".

4. Those people in 1995 had reason to be there which was wholly different to being racist against whites. There have been plenty of "white marches" in the past, and they were all motivated by racism as there was never a basis for anything else, and there still isn't.

5. Supremacists have always been the most vocal (if not only) proponents of white pride, so it is natural to strongly associate it with being racist.

Summary: these things weren't brought on by racism, unlike every single one of the "but if whites did this" points he brings up which HAVE been carried out by white people and were in fact very much racist. Oh, and you're racist, in case it hasn't been reiterated enough times to really sink in.
Looks like we're not going down after all, so nevermind.
2010-08-21, 4:44 PM #20
Originally posted by JM:
Lets see then.
Yes, let's.

Quote:
Quote:
A white woman could not be in the Miss Black American pageant, but any color can be in the Miss America pageant.
Valid.


- The Miss Black America pageant was originally created to protest the very real racism of the Miss America pageant. Up until the late 80s Miss America was considered a contest for 'whites.'
- Black women have the lowest capital (economic, cultural and social) of all of the race and gender pairings in the United States. A promotion and scholarship program for black women is good, and arguably essential.

Quote:
Quote:
If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships... You know we'd be racists.
Valid.


- The (economic, social and culture) capital of white people often leads to a greater educational outcome. This means:
a.) White people are more likely to be awarded merit-based scholarships in cases of "financial need."
b.) White students who do not have a "financial need" do not have a financial need.
c.) White students do not (in general) need an external financial incentive to pursue post-secondary studies.

- Contrary to your belief, there are 'minority' scholarships available to white people attending historically-black universities. This is required because...

Quote:
Quote:
There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges in the US .. Yet if there were 'White colleges', that would be a racist college.
Valid.


- Universities in the United States are (essentially) not allowed to consider race as a factor in enrollment (Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title VI.)
- The historically black colleges were founded to counter the very real racism of historically non-black colleges.

Quote:
Quote:
In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race and rights. If we marched for our race and rights, you would call us racists.
Valid.


- The Million Man March was held to raise awareness for a variety of social and economic issues for black people, such as the disproportionately high unemployment rate, poverty rate, incarceration rate and disproportionately low secondary completion and post-secondary continuation rates.
- White people do march for their race and rights. It's called "every other protest."

Quote:
Quote:
You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.
Valid.


- "White pride" usually involves burning crosses on a black man's lawn.

Quote:
This isn't about racism. This is about racism being used to destroy free speech. But, you probably won't read this part.
Your problem, I think, is that you want "free speech" in that you want to be able to say whatever you want, but you're too puerile to accept that there might be consequences.

There is literally no difference between slander and hate speech.

Originally posted by Emon:
Saying "Valid." doesn't actually make them valid...
You can't squeeze blood from a stone, Emon.
2010-08-21, 5:44 PM #21
Gosh.

I learned something about JM from this thread, if nothing else.
2010-08-21, 5:55 PM #22
I love that no one is even close to agreeing with anything JM has said.
>>untie shoes
2010-08-21, 6:54 PM #23
I make an effort to disagree with JM on most things because I think he's a gob****e. :D
nope.
2010-08-21, 7:22 PM #24
Because I know EVERYONE wants to know (for Emon, there is both sarcasm and self-deprecation there) you could say that the rant opens the door to discuss some racial issues. However, you could also say that JM's approach to starting the discussing leaves much to be desired.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2010-08-21, 7:31 PM #25
Everyone wants to know what?

There is no opening to discuss racial issues. There's nothing interesting to discuss here. This rant just shows how the lazy and stupid blame their problems on everyone else.

Waaah, I didn't get into college and this ****in' black kid did; it's obvious that affirmative action is working against me! If only there were a NAAWP or a whites-only fellowship program I'd have a chance to get ahead in life! And where the hell is MY Martin Luther King day???

This thread is abominable, and anybody who even thinks there's an issue to discuss is a horrible person.
2010-08-21, 8:19 PM #26
Doing anything with a chain mail other than deleting it is very noob-ish.
2010-08-21, 10:30 PM #27
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Everyone wants to know what?


What the resident hick redneck has to say on the matter. What else?

Originally posted by Jon`C:
There is no opening to discuss racial issues. There's nothing interesting to discuss here. This rant just shows how the lazy and stupid blame their problems on everyone else.


I would only say that I see how someone could take from the rant the opening to discuss some issues. I would disagree with your last sentence as well. I would rephrase it to say "This rant just shows how efforts to engender racial diversity continue to result is racial divide."

Originally posted by Jon`C:
Waaah, I didn't get into college and this ****in' black kid did; it's obvious that affirmative action is working against me! If only there were a NAAWP or a whites-only fellowship program I'd have a chance to get ahead in life! And where the hell is MY Martin Luther King day???


I basically disagree with the premise of the bogus email but I do believe that there are those perpetuating racial divide for their own profit.

Originally posted by Jon`C:
This thread is abominable, and anybody who even thinks there's an issue to discuss is a horrible person.


This thread is based on ignorance but it is ignorant to not recognize that valid conversations can be developed from said ignorance. Having said that, doing so may very well bring validity to the person who started the thread. That is something I am hesitant to do.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2010-08-22, 12:41 AM #28
Originally posted by Wookie06:
I would only say that I see how someone could take from the rant the opening to discuss some issues. I would disagree with your last sentence as well. I would rephrase it to say "This rant just shows how efforts to engender racial diversity continue to result is racial divide."
You'd be wrong.

If I understand you, you're claiming that this e-mail pillories efforts to promote "diversity" (e.g. minority advocacy organizations, scholarships, etc.) as racially-divisive. I agree that it is racially-divisive, but only insofar as there are (I use the term loosely) people in the world like JM.

People who share JM's opinion honestly aren't smart enough to understand the very real, insurmountable and uncorrectable problems some minorities face every day. I'm not even talking about the overt examples, like workplace racism! I'm talking about innocuous stuff a racist hick wouldn't even think about, like how native Spanish speakers are likely to score poorly on some of the standardized tests we use in North America due to cultural and linguistic effects on certain types of reasoning abilities.

There are biases in our system that cannot be eliminated even if there is not a single racist person in the world. These advocacy organizations will always have an important purpose and should always exist.

Quote:
I basically disagree with the premise of the bogus email but I do believe that there are those perpetuating racial divide for their own profit.
This is the consequence of unfettered capitalism. They're in good company: if you're interested you should start with McChurches, Bayer's sale of AIDS-contaminated anemia drugs in Europe, Nestle's (free till you stop lactating!) extortion/sale of low-quality baby formula in third world countries and Coca-Cola's industry-leading use of PMCs.

Quote:
This thread is based on ignorance but it is ignorant to not recognize that valid conversations can be developed from said ignorance. Having said that, doing so may very well bring validity to the person who started the thread. That is something I am hesitant to do.
That's really the problem here. Obviously we could discuss the issues it raises - more accurately, completely annihilate the issues with logic and statistics - but because JM posted it, and because JM's racist, and because many of us feel a profound antipathy toward JM, there's really nothing to discuss right now.
2010-08-22, 6:54 AM #29
Hey damnit, we have a thread for this crap. Go back to the wookie thread.
2010-08-22, 7:06 AM #30
has jon'c made any jk levels? right now i'm drunk and i think they'd be amusing to play

the last time i asked this question, dsettahr gave this reply:

Quote:
If I remember correctly, the project ended when he started having problems with the computer he was using to work in it. He dropped the computer down a flight of stairs, I think.


also racey-thingy is bad
2010-08-22, 9:08 AM #31
Quote:
Racism isn't destroying free speech. It's not illegal to say racist things. It just makes you an idiot if you say racist things.
But if you bring up obviously racist things done by minorities, you get fired. See : The radio host I mentioned.

Quote:
Saying "Valid." doesn't actually make them valid...
How aren't they? If I started a whites-only college fund, you would call me racist. It doesn't matter if you agree that a black-only college fund is racist, the statement that you would call me a racist is true.

It's now effectively impossible to discuss the issue in any way in this society. This is what happens : A bunch of people call you racist, hold you up as an example of racism thriving in America, and no progress is made at all. Yes, most minorities are perfectly ordinary and sensible people. But there is a group of them, at least as many as there are 'racist whites' who don't actually want to be treated the same. When you treat them the same as you would anyone else, they throw a fit, and shout things about racism. They want to be treated better because of their color. And that's also racism.

What do you think would happen if a white man said the things Bill Cosby did? Would he be allowed to? Or would it be hate speech? Why can't I say it? Why does it make me stupid and hateful, and not Bill Cosby? Is it because I'm white? That's racist.
2010-08-22, 9:53 AM #32
Originally posted by JM:
But if you bring up obviously racist things done by minorities, you get fired. See : The radio host I mentioned.

That doesn't have anything to do with this discussion.



Originally posted by JM:
How aren't they? If I started a whites-only college fund, you would call me racist.

As was already mentioned, black college funds exist because of social and cultural circumstances that have given black people a disadvantage. A whites-only college fund is racist because we don't need it.

Originally posted by JM:
It doesn't matter if you agree that a black-only college fund is racist, the statement that you would call me a racist is true.

Yeah, because IT IS.

Originally posted by JM:
Yes, most minorities are perfectly ordinary and sensible people. But there is a group of them, at least as many as there are 'racist whites' who don't actually want to be treated the same. When you treat them the same as you would anyone else, they throw a fit, and shout things about racism. They want to be treated better because of their color. And that's also racism.

Sure, great, THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THAT. Can you seriously not see the distinction?
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-08-22, 10:12 AM #33
Quote:
As was already mentioned, black college funds exist because of social and cultural circumstances that have given black people a disadvantage. A whites-only college fund is racist because we don't need it.
Justified Racism is still Racism.

Quote:
That doesn't have anything to do with this discussion.


Quote:
Sure, great, THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THAT. Can you seriously not see the distinction?


I started the thread, I know what it's about. That you lot ignored half the original post and latched onto the e-mail isn't my problem. And look : You did it again.
2010-08-22, 10:20 AM #34
What original post? You rambled about Kramer and a radio host, mentioned the mosque business and then posted the e-mail. You didn't make any point at all.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-08-22, 10:21 AM #35
Originally posted by JM:
Justified Racism is still Racism.

That's not the definition of racism.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-08-22, 10:23 AM #36
It should also be pointed out that the radio host wasn't fired. She is choosing to quit when her current contract expires. Next year, I believe. She claims she's tired of the assaults by groups like Media Matters that, essentially, work towards getting sponsors to dump her. She already went through another very public episode like this several years ago dealing with homosexuality.

In this case I clearly think she was over the top. A black woman married to a white man called in. She stated that her husband's family had been to their home and she heard a racist comment. Dr. Laura then said you hear n[word] on HBO constantly. She said n[word] eleven times. The woman was offended and Dr. Laura stated that if you are going to be hyper-sensitive about racial issues then don't marry outside your race. So while she may be right on her final point and about hearing the n-word in all sorts of popular media she was overly insensitive in how she chose to make her point. It was also dumb because she should have anticipated the backlash. Apparently she is going to focus on outlets other than her radio show when her contract expires.

So, no, she wasn't fired.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2010-08-22, 10:24 AM #37
No, it's an example of racism.
2010-08-22, 10:25 AM #38
Quote:
In this case I clearly think she was over the top. A black woman married to a white man called in. She stated that her husbands family had been to their home and she heard a racist comment. Dr. Laura then said you hear n[word] on HBO constantly. She said n[word] eleven times. The woman was offended and Dr. Laura stated that if you are going to be hyper-sensitive about racial issues then don't marry outside your race. So while she maybe right on her final point and about hearing the n-word in all sorts of popular media she was overly insensitive in how she chose to make her point. It was also dumb because she should have anticipated the backlash. Apparently she is going to focus on outlets other than her radio show when her contract expires.


Which is why I quoted

Quote:
The idea that one should never have one's feelings hurt -- and the violent means to which some will resort in the protection of their own self-regard -- has done harm rivaling evil. It isn't a stretch to say that the greatest threat to free speech is, in fact, "sensitivity."


From the mosque article.
2010-08-22, 10:27 AM #39
Originally posted by JM:
No, it's an example of racism.

...adjusting for the imbalance that WE CREATED is an example of how we think minorities are genetically superior?
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-08-22, 10:33 AM #40
What do you mean 'we'? Are you assuming I keep the black man down because I'm white?

By the way, the second definition in your link equates Racism with Discrimination, the definition of which is

Quote:
treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
12

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