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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Air force officers saw UFOs
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Air force officers saw UFOs
2010-09-29, 5:26 AM #1
I thought some of you might find this interesting...

http://www.zie.nl/video/opmerkelijk/Luchtmachtofficieren-zagen-UFOs/m1fzoc9fdbxa

Translated from Dutch:

Washington 27/09/2010 - On a press conference, former air force officers speak about their experiences with UFOs. The events happened on a missile basis during the cold war.
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2010-09-29, 5:46 AM #2
What's the deal around here lately with the conspiracies? Pass on link.
Quote Originally Posted by FastGamerr
"hurr hairy guy said my backhair looks dumb hurr hairy guy smash"
2010-09-29, 6:14 AM #3
This has nothing to do with conspiracies. It's just an interesting story.
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2010-09-29, 6:26 AM #4
What's next? Marines find WMDs in Iraq?
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
-----------------------------@%
2010-09-29, 7:07 AM #5
I have great reason to believe that there were in fact WMDs in Iraq all along. The Bush administration was right about that, the CIA was right about that, even those of the Democrats who publically supported the war knew that. But then the Democrats realized something: if said WMDs are in fact not uncovered, Bush will look bad, as will the Republicans generally. They knew America would end up with a lot of voters disillusioned by the Republican party, feeling betrayed by a president and his affiliates driving the country into what they would perceive as a pointless war. So the Democrats sent a secret commission to actually go to Iraq, locate the WMDs based on readily available intelligence data, take the WMDs and hide them in a top secret location. They knew that if the operation succeeded, they could have the unlikeliest candidates for office and still regain power.

Yes, even if the most likely winners within those candidates are Hillary Clinton and a black guy. And now we have the first African-American president.
Looks like we're not going down after all, so nevermind.
2010-09-29, 7:09 AM #6
http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/jr-nyquist/those-who-know-will-understand
FRIGGIN RUSSIANS
Warhead[97]
2010-09-29, 9:04 AM #7
I was going to post this about a week ago, have been following it for about a month or so now.

Knowledge of this event has been on the internet for about a month, maybe a tad longer. ATS.com first picked it up (a site I frequent quite often) and then subsequently the MSM followed suit. CNN and Foxnews ran stories about it, as did Yahoo.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2010/09/ex--air-force-officers-discuss-ufos-and-nuclear-missiles-at-national-press-club/1?csp=34%3Fcsp%3D34

Basically, these guys are extremely credible witnesses who've come forward with their stories and evidence regarding UFO activity at North American and European nuclear base's. Specifically, weapon's base's. Tons of nukes and other materials have been shut down and other events that can't be explained even by the Air Force and other military establishments. None of the technology displayed can be replicated even currently by humans. These aren't just your regular whistleblowers, these people should be listened to on a very serious level.

http://abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread614826/pg1

http://abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread614643/pg1

There is a ton of info out there about this. And this movement has been gaining a LOT of steam lately.


Full press conference:
http://a53.video2.blip.tv/7530006646160/Exopolitik-NPCPressConferenceUFOsAndNukesSept272010636.mp4?bri=18.7&brs=333
2010-09-29, 9:18 AM #8
Originally posted by Temperamental:
been following it for about a month

Knowledge of this event has been on the internet for about a month


Coincidence? I think not.

Originally posted by Temperamental:
base's. Specifically, weapon's base's.


:cool:

Originally posted by Temperamental:
Tons of nukes and other materials have been shut down


What is our next step, as a nation, now that these tons of nukes and other materials have been shut down.

Originally posted by Temperamental:
None of the technology displayed can be replicated even currently by humans.


Not even currently??


Originally posted by Temperamental:
And this movement has been gaining a LOT of steam lately.


key point right there
2010-09-29, 9:22 AM #9
Aliens? It's probably just the Japanese. Cue the mechs in 5...
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
ᴸᶥᵛᵉ ᴼᵑ ᴬᵈᵃᵐ
2010-09-29, 9:37 AM #10
Originally posted by Temperamental:
Basically, these guys are extremely credible witnesses

I don't care if god himself came down and told me UFOs were alien spacecraft, I want some evidence that isn't subjective testimony.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-09-29, 9:39 AM #11
Saber I strongly suggest you watch the video in its entirety before you poke fun. These people articulate everything much better in the video than I care to try to write out for you. There are tons of tidbits of information that tell what was going on, I just gave the gist of it.

Quote:
I don't care if god himself came down and told me UFOs were alien spacecraft, I want some evidence that isn't subjective testimony.


Ah I see... So if I haven't seen it, it doesn't exist. Right?

Rendlesham Forest Incident. Backed up by physical evidence, radar confirmation, strong and credible witness testimony, and a story that even Nick Pope (former UK DoD) has verified as a genuinely true unexplainable event outside of human capacity. Tons of videos are available that have been confirmed genuine and not tampered with or special effects of any kind. Astronauts, current and past... There are too many sources this stuff comes from to say 100% of everything is a hoax and everyone that ever tells something is making it up or mixing up what they saw with swamp gas or Venus. People that are trained to go out in space can't even tell that difference? Every single well trained pilot, no matter how many flight hours, that has ever seen something extraordinary or that they can't explain themselves, has been confused? Give me a break.

Aside from them landing and probing your ass, I don't know what more you want.

Also: I always get confused by people that say God exists and the possibility of alien life is laughable. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Don't think you can go out there and google "Video of God in the sky". I guess an image of Jesus in a potato chip is definitely worth something.
2010-09-29, 9:53 AM #12
How is a nuke "shut down" exactly?
2010-09-29, 9:57 AM #13
Originally posted by Temperamental:
Ah I see... So if I haven't seen it, it doesn't exist. Right?

No, if I can't infer enough evidence to suggest it exists, I will not conclude that it's a UFO/alien whatever.

Originally posted by Temperamental:
has verified as a genuinely true unexplainable event outside of human capacity.

That doesn't mean it was aliens. No one can explain how the universe came into existence, that doesn't mean that god created it.

Let's get one thing straight. Any testimony by any person is worthless. It doesn't matter how credible you think they are, you have no way of verifying what they say, which makes it pretty much worthless. Eyewitness testimonies in court aren't worth much for exactly the same reason. Even if the person isn't lying, there's no way to tell if what they're saying is accurate, hasn't been influenced by others (group influence etc).

As for the physical evidence. What evidence are you referring to? The landing marks appear to be rabbit holes, the "burn marks" are from chain saws, and the light a lighthouse, whose rate of rotation even coincides with the eye witness's claims of blinking. The levels of radiation in the area weren't distinguishable from background radiation. I can't find anything about radar information.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-09-29, 10:09 AM #14
Quote:
No, if I can't infer enough evidence to suggest it exists, I will not conclude that it's a UFO/alien whatever.


Ok...So I've never seen the northern lights, the other planets in our solar system, or even gravity. Thus, none of them exist.

Quote:
Let's get one thing straight. Any testimony by any person is worthless. It doesn't matter how credible you think they are, you have no way of verifying what they say, which makes it pretty much worthless. Eyewitness testimonies in court aren't worth much for exactly the same reason. Even if the person isn't lying, there's no way to tell if what they're saying is accurate, hasn't been influenced by others (group influence etc).


One person, yes. But the fact remains that there isn't just one person saying stuff. There are THOUSANDS. And they are all saying the exact same thing.

Quote:
As for the physical evidence. What evidence are you referring to? The landing marks appear to be rabbit holes, the "burn marks" are from chain saws, and the light a lighthouse, whose rate of rotation even coincides with the eye witness's claims of blinking. The levels of radiation in the area weren't distinguishable from background radiation. I can't find anything about radar information.


You just read the wiki article didn't you? That shows absolutely nothing about the incident, and it doesn't even barely mention Nick Pope, the DOD minster who actually confirmed the event's authenticity. That's also why you didn't find anything about the radar information.

http://www.nickpope.net/rendlesham-forest-incident.htm
http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicrend.html

Nick Pope was charged with an official investigation into the event, and he tried desperately (as he was a skeptic at the time) to disprove everything. Essentially, one part of his investigation also included trying to figure out if there was anything at certain points in time that would have been in the area... I.e a nearby base having training runs with pilots, commercial flights, etc. There was nothing in that area at that time from anyone, anywhere. Nobody had any planes or people out at all. These were not military craft, and they were not commercial craft. This was verified by comparing times, dates, and a bunch of other data which included comparisons of other training facilities radar data, etc.

And whatever you read about radiation is completely incorrect. Every single article I've ever read, including the official documents, say the exact same thing:

"Files detailing the Geiger counter readings taken at the scene were shown to experts by Nick Pope in 1994 who asses radiation levels for the government. According to Pope, they expressed surprise at the recordings and confirmed that the figures were ten times the expected background levels. "

Of course you're going to say "So what? There are tons of times that radiation has been found where it shouldnt be"... The point is that these people are trained specifically on when to recognize that something is out of place. They wouldn't have pursued this or even bothered with it further if they suspected it was just something simple like that. They thought something was up. And these people know their ****. They're trained on it on a daily basis. They work with this stuff on a daily basis. You're telling me that every single one of them missed something easy that you and I can spot? I strongly doubt it. You're telling me that they blew something small out of proportion? The same people charged with the country's defense? The same people that are supposed to be trained so well on things like this are ALL so easily confused? No. That just doesn't happen. One person, maybe. But not every single person involved in the incident.

It's been a while since I fully explained the event, so it's best to actually do a search for what Nick Pope found on the incident.

Also - This is just one example of many many many. What about the actual official documents (on UFO's) released due to the FOIA? Every single government agency that wrote something they couldn't explain or regarding extraterrestrials has just been confused? All their official reports, testimonies, etc are worthless and should just be discounted because they are written on paper rather than being on youtube at 1 million views?
2010-09-29, 10:30 AM #15
Originally posted by Temperamental:
Ok...So I've never seen the northern lights, the other planets in our solar system, or even gravity. Thus, none of them exist.

Are you seriously this stupid? I said infer, not see. There's a big ****ing difference. You can infer the existence of gravity because it's effects are obvious. You or anyone else can verify the existence of other planets in the solar system. 100% of all the evidence in science can be verified by you.

Originally posted by Temperamental:
One person, yes. But the fact remains that there isn't just one person saying stuff. There are THOUSANDS. And they are all saying the exact same thing.

You're agnostic, aren't you? Do you believe the MILLIONS of people who say they've been touched by god?


Originally posted by Temperamental:
You just read the wiki article didn't you? That shows absolutely nothing about the incident

Better than crackpot sources that twist the reports and evidence.



"Such returns are not uncommon, and in themselves mean nothing. But again, the sceptics miss the point, which is that the return was seen at exactly the same time and in exactly the same location as the unidentified light seen in the sky by military personnel at Bentwaters."

No, he's missing the point. It's a ****ing coincidence. Just because something occurs at the same time doesn't indicate causation.

Originally posted by Temperamental:
They wouldn't have pursued this or even bothered with it further if they suspected it was just something simple like that. They thought something was up. And these people know their ****. They're trained on it on a daily basis. They work with this stuff on a daily basis. You're telling me that every single one of them missed something easy that you and I can spot? I strongly doubt it. You're telling me that they blew something small out of proportion? The same people charged with the country's defense? The same people that are supposed to be trained so well on things like this are ALL so easily confused? No. That just doesn't happen. One person, maybe. But not every single person involved in the incident.

I WANT TO BELIEVE! Hey guys, look, there's all these people and they say these things, man it must make it true!

Originally posted by Temperamental:
Every single government agency that wrote something they couldn't explain or regarding extraterrestrials has just been confused?

Why would it be such a surprise?

Originally posted by Temperamental:
All their official reports, testimonies, etc are worthless and should just be discounted because they are written on paper rather than being on youtube at 1 million views?

ABSOLUTELY. Science doesn't work on the basis of conjecture.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-09-29, 10:31 AM #16
Mildly off-topic, but:

Quote:
You're telling me that they blew something small out of proportion? The same people charged with the country's defense?


Haha. Hahahahaha. Because that is impossible to believe! Haha. heheh. heh.
Warhead[97]
2010-09-29, 10:35 AM #17
Bringing up ATS.com here would be brave at minimum. Most of the people on that site are crazy fanatics or blindfolded debunkers. Every once in a while you get a good level minded person that inspects the data presented in a 'case' if you will, and makes a logical hypothesis on the subject.

Another thing that we've unfortunately grown accustomed to is the term UFO meaning something to do with Aliens. I see UFOs all the time, that still doesn't make it alien. It just means that I personally do not know what it is.
Quote Originally Posted by FastGamerr
"hurr hairy guy said my backhair looks dumb hurr hairy guy smash"
2010-09-29, 10:36 AM #18
This appears as good resource not written by a complete moron:

http://www.ianridpath.com/ufo/rendlesham.htm
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-09-29, 11:07 AM #19
Quote:
Are you seriously this stupid? I said infer, not see. There's a big ****ing difference. You can infer the existence of gravity because it's effects are obvious. You or anyone else can verify the existence of other planets in the solar system. 100% of all the evidence in science can be verified by you.


And as I stated, there are plenty of pictures and videos that STAND UP to analysis and CANNOT BE EXPLAINED even by EXPERTS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE FIELDS. You're telling me you think you're more expert than they are? That they are simply not understanding or seeing things that you somehow can?

Quote:
You're agnostic, aren't you? Do you believe the MILLIONS of people who say they've been touched by god?


That's a two part question. First, No, I am not agnostic. I fully believe in God, but I do not practice any religion. And No, I do not believe in the MILLIONS of people that say they have been touched by God. For the most part, there is absolutely zero evidence to back up their stories. No video, no picture, etc. I do however believe in reincarnation and life after death, as well as people being brought back without any justification (science can give). I.e people that have been declared dead by all measurable means and come back to life at certain points. Or diseases that mysteriously disappear with no cure in the body, other things like that. If you start giving me websites that have 50 gajillion pictures of a supposed Angelic God standing in the sky, or doing whatever the hell people think he does, pictures that have been analyzed and found to be authentic, then I might start to believe in that. But as for right now, no, I do not believe that some ******* can stand on a stage and ask you for 50 bucks while he slaps your forehead and cures your blindness. But is there some form of a higher power? Yes, I do absolutely believe in that.

Quote:
Better than crackpot sources that twist the reports and evidence.


So... Again, because you seem to think they are crackpot sources they must be. There are plenty of other sources I could have chosen to give you, but those were the first two that came up on my limited search.

Quote:
No, he's missing the point. It's a ****ing coincidence. Just because something occurs at the same time doesn't indicate causation.


Pretty big coincidence that's also backed up by various other sources of data. That doesn't mean it WAS a UFO/Aliens but a coincidence doesn't mean that the rest of the story is false or mis-identification either.

Quote:
I WANT TO BELIEVE! Hey guys, look, there's all these people and they say these things, man it must make it true!


When people with various actual technical backgrounds, who undergo all sorts of psychiatric evaluations and pass with flying colors, all come together and say they saw SOMETHING, you cannot discount that so easily. At least, you shouldn't. You took what I said and blew it out of context. I wasn't saying that because people get together and say something you should listen. You know damn well what I meant was that these aren't simple crackpots coming out of the woodwork every here and there that we all must believe them no matter what they say immediately.

Quote:
Why would it be such a surprise?


It would be a huge surprise if the people that designed, were trained to use, and operate these on a daily basis don't fully understand what they are using. "Hey guys! I know how to build a computer out of anything but I can't for the life of me figure out how to do a web search."

Quote:
ABSOLUTELY. Science doesn't work on the basis of conjecture.


And as I said, there have been plenty of sources, that you can go and google because I am not doing the work for you, which have actually been put to scientific analysis. Samples, Photos, Videos, Materials, etc. TONS of things have been put under the scope. You're concentrating on Rendlesham just because I gave it as one of many examples.

95% of UFO reports are misidentification. 5% are actually unexplainable phenomena that neither you, me, or these professionals can figure out the causes or origins of.

Quote:
Bringing up ATS.com here would be brave at minimum. Most of the people on that site are crazy fanatics or blindfolded debunkers. Every once in a while you get a good level minded person that inspects the data presented in a 'case' if you will, and makes a logical hypothesis on the subject.


Eh.. Doubt it. ATS.com. Rense.com. Coasttocoastam.com. ATS.com.

Nobody is saying there aren't hoaxes or silly stories posted on those websites, but there's some pretty stupid **** posted here sometimes as well. Does that mean we should discount every single thing that everyone says here?


Massassi - The place where even experts don't know as much as we do. Hah. Hahahahahahahahaha.
2010-09-29, 11:27 AM #20
Originally posted by Temperamental:
And as I said, there have been plenty of sources, that you can go and google because I am not doing the work for you, which have actually been put to scientific analysis. Samples, Photos, Videos, Materials, etc. TONS of things have been put under the scope. You're concentrating on Rendlesham just because I gave it as one of many examples.

Burden of proof.

Originally posted by Temperamental:
And as I stated, there are plenty of pictures and videos that STAND UP to analysis and CANNOT BE EXPLAINED even by EXPERTS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE FIELDS.
...

95% of UFO reports are misidentification. 5% are actually unexplainable phenomena that neither you, me, or these professionals can figure out the causes or origins of.

So this means they're aliens? Unanswered questions are not conclusions. I do not understand how you don't get this.

Your whole argument is basically: There's a ton of people who are credible and say this exists, my sources tell me there is physical evidence, therefore ALIENS.

Have you no idea how ridiculous this sounds? You're jumping to the conclusion because you want to believe it.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-09-29, 11:38 AM #21
Quote:
So this means they're aliens? Unanswered questions are not conclusions. I do not understand how you don't get this.


No. The overwhelming amount of actual physical data that cannot be refuted is what makes me believe. Not a grainy video. Again, google for yourself and enjoy about a days worth of watching and investigating and you'll come across something that makes you go "huh?" at the very least.

Quote:
Your whole argument is basically: There's a ton of people who are credible and say this exists, my sources tell me there is physical evidence, therefore ALIENS.


No. You are jumping to the conclusion that this is the basis for my belief. It is merely one of the many examples of evidence pointing towards something going on. It is also to illustrate to you, again, that these aren't just hillbilly crackpots wearing tin foil hats. Astronauts, Police, Military officers, Retired Air Force personnel, Generals, etc. The list goes on and on. Again, this is not the only reason why.

Quote:
Have you no idea how ridiculous this sounds? You're jumping to the conclusion because you want to believe it.


If that were the case I would believe in a lot more things than I currently do. When someone tells me something, I'm not going to outright believe it. Nobody here is jumping to any conclusions but you. I'm not assuming all of this because someone said it happened. You seem to think I am.

How many times have I said the words Picture, Video, and other evidence?[/b] followed by that stands up to scientific analysis?[/i]

Here's another interesting read for you interested folks:
http://xenophilius.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/ben-rich-lockheed-ceo-admits-on-deathbed-et-ufo-are-real/

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread335287/pg1
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread143130/pg1

I'm linking ats.com because they are the only place where there seems to be an actual compiled list with all the evidence presented.

These are why I believe. Not because someone said so.
2010-09-29, 11:42 AM #22
Originally posted by Temperamental:
No. The overwhelming amount of actual physical data that cannot be refuted is what makes me believe. Not a grainy video. Again, google for yourself and enjoy about a days worth of watching and investigating and you'll come across something that makes you go "huh?" at the very least.

I certainly have, and it does make me go "huh?" but what's your point? There's a lot of things I can't explain.


Originally posted by Temperamental:
No. You are jumping to the conclusion that this is the basis for my belief. It is merely one of the many examples of evidence pointing towards something going on. It is also to illustrate to you, again, that these aren't just hillbilly crackpots wearing tin foil hats. Astronauts, Police, Military officers, Retired Air Force personnel, Generals, etc. The list goes on and on. Again, this is not the only reason why.

Yes, all human beings, and all are fallible.



Originally posted by Temperamental:
How many times have I said the words Picture, Video, and other evidence?[/b]

Hey so, where is it? Because I've looked for years, and never found anything worthwhile that stood up to real scrutiny. The best of it makes you ask "huh?" but that's all you're left with.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-09-29, 11:47 AM #23
I posted links. The bottom two ATS.com links I gave are compilations of the best UFO cases in history. I think it amounts to over 200 of them or something like that but I could be wrong. They give any evidence the case had, any scientific analysis which was done, all refuting opinions, etc. Everything you need to make a conclusion from yourself. Another good video to watch is the Exopolitics Summit from... 2009 I believe. It's all on Youtube.

Quote:
Yes, all human beings, and all are fallible.


Of course they are. But when you have hundreds of people, from various backgrounds all coming and telling the same or very similar stories, you should have a red flag go off somewhere. Something is going on.
2010-09-29, 11:52 AM #24
Originally posted by Temperamental:
They give any evidence the case had, any scientific analysis which was done, all refuting opinions, etc. Everything you need to make a conclusion from yourself.

I'll take a look when I get home, but, I'm very wary of this train of thought. You can say the same thing about a ton of pseudoscience websites about homeopathy. They'll leave out very important information, usually what they don't understand or disagree with. Reading only "UFO sources" is not a good idea for this reason.



Originally posted by Temperamental:
Of course they are. But when you have hundreds of people, from various backgrounds all coming and telling the same or very similar stories, you should have a red flag go off somewhere. Something is going on.

Yeah, sociology is neat, isn't it?
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-09-29, 12:01 PM #25
Quote:
I'll take a look when I get home, but, I'm very wary of this train of thought. You can say the same thing about a ton of pseudoscience websites about homeopathy. They'll leave out very important information, usually what they don't understand or disagree with. Reading only "UFO sources" is not a good idea for this reason.


ATS.com isn't a UFO source only. It's a huge message forum with about 50 different sub-forums each with their own topic. The UFO sub-forum is only 1 of the 50. That's like saying Massassi is a Music discussion forum.

Quote:
Yeah, sociology is neat, isn't it?


Ok, let me ask you this then. What is the likelihood, that all of these people, crackpots and not, are lying about what they saw? Furthermore, Why would they lie and destroy their lives/careers in doing so? And how is every single one of them, simply just confused about what they saw, even the one's that are trained to recognize what they are seeing (astronauts in space, know what certain debris is)?
2010-09-29, 12:13 PM #26
Originally posted by RWTAKEN:

There's gonna be alot of unnecessary bloodshed isn't there...


I really don't think so, Much of the larger "Fake Terrorist" attacks that we kept seeing over & over again on the news, hightened Terror allerts and Such, Why didn't they actually happen? I believe there has been intervention, Only smaller bombings that use less advanced bombs have taken place and in no way is that OK either, but the actual number of people that could have been lost is probably staggering.

If you look into Steven Greers work, [url]WWW.Disclosureproject.com[/url] you will find according to many high level military and Gov't officials that ET's have many times disabled Nuclear Weapons and they have also stopped meteor impacts as well. Their message seems to be, You will not be messing with Nuclear Weapons, sorry.

If they have the ability to disable Nuclear Weapons, first of all, if they meant us harm, we wouldn't be here because there is nothing we could do to stop them if they have that kind of Technology. I don't think we have much to worry about as far as massive bloodshed goes.
Quote Originally Posted by Chaz Ghostle
some gay men prefer to have partners with smaller, softer bodies[. . .]It really all comes down to what you like.
2010-09-29, 12:17 PM #27
The US GOV'T, or more correctly The Illuminati (Secret Societies) are fighting first contact tooth & nail because it will be the end of their plan of a One World Government and their Oil based Economy they have set up to keep the masses in a state of Survival mode.

The Et's that are here no all this, and know that if First Contact is spun in a negitive fasion, it could throw a lot of people into panic & fear which will not be a pretty site, So instead of just dropping from the sky, The Et's & along with some enlightened humans have begun to reveal to the masses the curruption and dirty deeds of our leaders, so people will understand why massive changes to the system is needed.

I believe it won't be long now.
Quote Originally Posted by Chaz Ghostle
some gay men prefer to have partners with smaller, softer bodies[. . .]It really all comes down to what you like.
2010-09-29, 12:20 PM #28
Originally posted by Temperamental:
ATS.com isn't a UFO source only. It's a huge message forum with about 50 different sub-forums each with their own topic. The UFO sub-forum is only 1 of the 50. That's like saying Massassi is a Music discussion forum.

It doesn't matter if it's a site or sub-forum. Real skeptics don't hang out at UFO places because they're a waste of time.



Originally posted by Temperamental:
Ok, let me ask you this then. What is the likelihood, that all of these people, crackpots and not, are lying about what they saw? Furthermore, Why would they lie and destroy their lives/careers in doing so?

I don't think they're lying, I think they've come to an incorrect conclusion.

Originally posted by Temperamental:
And how is every single one of them, simply just confused about what they saw, even the one's that are trained to recognize what they are seeing (astronauts in space, know what certain debris is)?

They're trained to know what UFOs look like? They can be seeing everything exactly correctly, but incorrectly put together the evidence to arrive at an incorrect conclusion.

People who saw the Hindenburg burn up KNEW what they saw: explosions of hydrogen coming from the inside of the body that caused it to go down. That didn't stop them from being dead wrong: the skin of the body flash burned and THEN caused the explosions.

There's also a lot of social cognitive biases that we're all subjected to. You take someone who might not ordinarily believe a certain phenomenon is a UFO, but put them in a group of people that do and suddenly they'll start believing it themselves. There's a whole lot of social psychology that offers some pretty reasonable explanations for this kind of phenomenon. I'm more likely to believe that over aliens.

And for the record, I'm not some hardass skeptic that never wants to look at any evidence. I'd really like it to be true, I really would. Being visited by life from another planet would be able the most significant thing to ever happen to mankind. I just don't see enough reason to think it's real.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-09-29, 12:42 PM #29
Originally posted by Temperamental:
Eh.. Doubt it. ATS.com. Rense.com. Coasttocoastam.com. ATS.com.

Nobody is saying there aren't hoaxes or silly stories posted on those websites, but there's some pretty stupid **** posted here sometimes as well. Does that mean we should discount every single thing that everyone says here?


Massassi - The place where even experts don't know as much as we do. Hah. Hahahahahahahahaha.


Uh yeah. I disregard much of what I read here. Unless it's about JLee and his MR2s, or SARN and his seamen *chuckle* exploits, or CM and the site finances... its assumed total and utter BS.
Quote Originally Posted by FastGamerr
"hurr hairy guy said my backhair looks dumb hurr hairy guy smash"
2010-09-29, 12:48 PM #30
Originally posted by HooDWinkeR:
The US GOV'T, or more correctly The Illuminati (Secret Societies) are fighting first contact tooth & nail...


i almost choked on a ritz cracker from reading this. :carl:
Welcome to the douchebag club. We'd give you some cookies, but some douche ate all of them. -Rob
2010-09-29, 12:51 PM #31
Wow this thread is quite [http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/garosaon/jumprope.gif]
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2010-09-29, 12:52 PM #32
Not sure what just happened but I hope it was satire
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-09-29, 12:55 PM #33
i honestly cant tell...
Welcome to the douchebag club. We'd give you some cookies, but some douche ate all of them. -Rob
2010-09-29, 1:01 PM #34
Quote:
It doesn't matter if it's a site or sub-forum. Real skeptics don't hang out at UFO places because they're a waste of time.


Except that you obviously don't visit the website. If you did, you'd know that quite a few skeptics actually visit the forum, and in fact the UFO forum in particular is literally sprawling with them. Even the believers are skeptics, accepting only the most brilliant of cases as truthful. There is a ton of debunking going on that forum all the time.

Quote:
I don't think they're lying, I think they've come to an incorrect conclusion.


Ok. So what do you, someone that hasn't been trained except by google, believe that astronauts/pilots/AF Generals/are actually seeing? And why are you able to figure out what they are seeing yet they cannot, even though they have been trained to discern between objects?

Quote:
There's also a lot of social cognitive biases that we're all subjected to. You take someone who might not ordinarily believe a certain phenomenon is a UFO, but put them in a group of people that do and suddenly they'll start believing it themselves. There's a whole lot of social psychology that offers some pretty reasonable explanations for this kind of phenomenon. I'm more likely to believe that over aliens.


I understand that. But the fact remains, again, that these are people who are used to these sorts of things. We aren't talking about regular people. We are talking about extraordinary people. These aren't your regular Sam or Joe from Arkansas. These are extremely well trained individuals, both mentally and physically.

I also find it extremely difficult to believe that a large amount of people with a distinguished career would ruin it or their reputation off of something they weren't certain of.

Quote:
And for the record, I'm not some hardass skeptic that never wants to look at any evidence. I'd really like it to be true, I really would. Being visited by life from another planet would be able the most significant thing to ever happen to mankind. I just don't see enough reason to think it's real.


For the record, I also am not some gullible Star Trek fan that wants First Contact to happen so badly that he will accept any story that's told. I accept only those which show hard overwhelming evidence, or something that cannot be explained by any conventional means. If a video pops up that looks extraordinary, I'm still not going to be a believer. Once it stands up to scrutiny and is confirmed an extremely possible reality, then I believe. I have a very open mind.

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
2010-09-29, 1:02 PM #35
[http://nervou.net/nervous.gif]
Quote Originally Posted by Chaz Ghostle
some gay men prefer to have partners with smaller, softer bodies[. . .]It really all comes down to what you like.
2010-09-29, 1:17 PM #36
Originally posted by Temperamental:
Ok. So what do you, someone that hasn't been trained except by google, believe that astronauts/pilots/AF Generals/are actually seeing? And why are you able to figure out what they are seeing yet they cannot, even though they have been trained to discern between objects?

I have no idea what they're seeing, but if there's a much better explanation it's reasonable to think they're wrong.



Originally posted by Temperamental:
These are extremely well trained individuals, both mentally and physically.

How many times do I have to say it? THAT DOESN'T MATTER. I don't care what branch of the military someone is from or how much training they've had. They're human and they make human errors. There's precisely a **** ton of psychological research about this subject that says the same thing.


Originally posted by Temperamental:
I also find it extremely difficult to believe that a large amount of people with a distinguished career would ruin it or their reputation off of something they weren't certain of.

Yeah, and like I said, they do believe it. It has nothing to do with that. But of course, you're not reading anything I write, and are just going about your merry way, so why the **** am I here?

Originally posted by Temperamental:
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

That's a crock of ****. Having no other conclusion doesn't mean there's no answer, it just means that you don't know.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-09-29, 1:32 PM #37
Impossible is a temporary condition.
2010-09-29, 4:12 PM #38
I am a fairly unbiased observer to this thread. I don't believe unequivocally that UFO's are aliens. Neither do I believe unequivocally that they are not. That said, Emon, your refusal to concede that they could be aliens, along with your unwillingness to believe that anything that cannot have physical "irrefutable" evidence (if such a thing even exists) presented for it cannot possibly be real is much more ridiculous than Temperamental's choice to believe in something incredible that he heard from thousands of otherwise credible sources.

Also, you mentioned that humans are fallible. You're 100% right. Well, I hate to break this to you, but science is a human-created process and is therefore equally fallible.

It amazes me that otherwise rational people can believe in the fallibility of man, while at the same time believing in the infallibility of man-made processes (ie the Scientific Method or the Justice System).

-------
Lastly, and at the risk of sounding like a paranoid conspiracy theorist, if a high-level conspiracy did exist, wouldn't the best way to keep it from the public eye be to create and promote an attitude that scorns, mocks and labels as crackpots those who theorize about or attempt to expose it? If they do exist, you're playing into their hands with the condescending attitude you're displaying to HooDWinkeR.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Lassev: I guess there was something captivating in savagery, because I liked it.
2010-09-29, 4:18 PM #39
Originally posted by Sarn_Cadrill:
That said, Emon, your refusal to concede that they could be aliens

I never said this. I said I wouldn't assume that they were aliens, and I have said, over and over that the answer is unknown. My opinion is that it's highly unlikely, and on a day to day basis that low probability leads me to assume "no."

Originally posted by Sarn_Cadrill:
along with your unwillingness to believe that anything that cannot have physical "irrefutable" evidence (if such a thing even exists)

I never said "irrefutable evidence" anywhere in the thread.

Originally posted by Sarn_Cadrill:
presented for it cannot possibly be real is much more ridiculous than Temperamental's choice to believe in something incredible that he heard from thousands of otherwise credible sources.

How so? If I don't have sufficient evidence for something, I assume it's unknown. I don't go off believing in wild things.

Originally posted by Sarn_Cadrill:
Also, you mentioned that humans are fallible. You're 100% right. Well, I hate to break this to you, but science is a human-created process and is therefore equally fallible.

It amazes me that otherwise rational people can believe in the fallibility of man, while at the same time believing in the infallibility of man-made processes (ie the Scientific Method or the Justice System).

How is science "fallible." The scientific method isn't fallible or not, it just is. It's humans application of science which is subject to being incorrect. Please point me to a list of flaws of the scientific method.

Science is the only consistently reliable way to learn anything about the world around us.


Originally posted by Sarn_Cadrill:
...you're playing into their hands with the condescending attitude you're displaying to HooDWinkeR.

It was satire.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-09-29, 4:33 PM #40
Originally posted by Emon:
Unanswered questions are not conclusions.


Unanswered questions are not conclusions.


1) I don't know what created the universe.
2) It could be that (the Judeo-Christian) God exists and created the universe.
3) Therefore God created the universe.

Find the logical fallacy!
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