I read about how Texas is going to allow guns on school campuses because if every college kid has a gun there that will stop school shootings..

I considered that if everyone has a gun it will make schools a much harder target. But at the same time I'm not comfortable with the idea of every college kid walking around there with a gun...but that might just be because such a solution (to the very real threat which exists here also, as we've seen) would never fly here so it's difficult for me to see it from the perspective of the American culture.

I reall wish to read about what people from different parts of the world and especially from the US, and pro and anti gun people think about this matter.

How long till this happens:
Someone goes on a shooting rampage
Someone shoots him
Someone shoots the shooter because it looked like HE was the one on the rampage.
Someone shoots the shooter of the shooter...

And then someone bursts into Ragtime on a piano and someone gets punched over a bar?

How long till this happens:
Someone goes on a shooting rampage
Tibby gets hit in crossfire

Do they have shooting rampages in Canada? I thought they were too busy being polite to each other and baking muffins.

Being allowed to carry a gun != actually carrying a gun

I doubt much is going to be different.

Yeah. Really this is just legalizing what some people I knew in college did illegally anyway. (Oddly enough, the main two friends I thought of when I read this are both from Austin.)

You're making a couple errors here. I don't have time right now, but I thought I'd point out the most prominent two, and also bring up an additional thought:

1. "everyone has a gun" - Allowing licensed individuals to carry their weapons to class (the same as they are allowed to carry everywhere else) does not mean EVERY person on campus will have a gun.

2. People get so caught up in the idea of guns and what they have seen of them (you only hear about guns when they are shooting people, on the news or in movies) that they forget that it is real human beings that are carrying them. If someone thinks that they're going to hurt an innocent person by firing their gun, they won't do it. It's not like you put a gun in your hand and suddenly you shoot every other person with a gun that you see. Humans evaluate and make decisions, and are naturally extremely hesitant to hurt another human being. I can go on about this point and all its sub-arguments forever, if you'd like, later.

And the extra point I'd like to make is that the major problem I have with not allowing guns on campus is that it is based on (or creates, depending on your point of view) an unenforceable premise: That there are no guns on campus, and that campus is safe. Laws that are unenforceable are hardly laws, they're just wishes...there's a quote by someone to that effect...Hobbes or Locke or Rousseau or one of those guys.

The point being: I'd be more than happy to not carry weapons onto campus if I had any reasonable expectation that no one else could either. The problem is that every college campus I've been to has been completely open. Any student could go pretty much anywhere with no security screening, and any PERSON, whoever they are, could go just about anywhere, also. Security is limited to a few campus officers driving around and a few on foot (for thousands and thousands of people). There is nothing STOPPING anyone from bringing guns, knives, bombs, or whatever they want onto campus, except for their own conscience and respect for the law....and anyone who is stopped by that, I personally have very little fear of in that context.

So, that leaves two choices in my mind: Either seal off "gun-free" zones and actually enforce the law, while providing significantly increased security presence, or allow people to defend themselves. Personally I much prefer the latter.

It's funny actually, it's been all over the news here, yet no one really seems to be making at fuss at all.

I'm from West Texas, so I'm pretty sure it'll go over well there. When I was living in Odessa my first semester of college, there was this Vietnam Vet that lost his mind, locked himself up in a house with a rifle and killed 3 police officers, less than a mile from campus. No one really said so, but you knew people started arming themselves, it was seemed natural, and police didn't really seem to mind.

After that dude killed himself at UT Austin, I was was looking for a different response from people here (Arlington), but oddly enough, it was kinda similar. I mean there are people that disagree with the idea of firearms on campus, but no one really got upset at all.

If there was really a negative outcome from everyone carrying weapons, I'm pretty sure I'd hear about it being in Criminology and all.

As someone who's actually attending one of these universities, I'd like to know just why the Texas legislature thinks this policy ought to be forced on every state university, rather than allowing them to determine individually as a security matter whether they want to allow guns on campus.

I think it's a matter of getting the message across to everyone that it's an issue that needs to be addressed. I know that sounds silly, but I really think that's what it is. Later on, Uni's will probably start making their own choices as to what they wanna do, rather than what the state wants. That's after the issue cools though.

Why the personal attack and hate filled rhetoric?

Why hasn't he been banned yet?

How much of this are we going to put up with?

I think we should all be required to carry guns on this forum so we can put an end to this madness.

If we're referring to state subsidized schools then it would seem that they have the right to legislate them.

No blasters! No blasters!

Why would universities get to make their own choices? I expect we're both at least somewhat familiar with the Texas legislature. Is there any chance that, having passed a law that requires universities to allow concealed carry on campuses, they'll backtrack to a law that merely permits universities to do so? I doubt it.

A law that simply gave universities permission to do this would have been enough to make sure this issue was addressed. I think this kind of overreaching is probably just Texas being Texas.

My question is why they think it's sound policy to make this universal, not whether they have the legal right to do it.

That's exactly it.

Because most of us have jobs and can't handle things immediately. if you have such a big problem with it kindly report the post.

Did you know that you can openly carry a loaded handgun without a permit in New Hampshire, Vermont, and Maine (as well as AZ and AK)? In 20-some-odd years of living up here, I may have seen one or two people carrying.

Just because people can doesn't mean they will.

waaaaaaaah

To quote Zanardi:



Seriously, in such a small gathering of nerds I am surprised the obvious joke was not obvious. Oh well.

I guess it's because the 2nd Amendment is universal (in America) and it's actually kind of dumb that this law would need to be passed to begin with.

There's that and also the fact that now most people would think it odd to see a person carrying a gun. How far we've fallen.

At the risk of sounding like a redneck/wuss, I'd definitely feel safer in college if I knew that a percentage of people on campus were packing, or if I could at least keep a weapon in my car (I know some states you can, but its definitely a no-no here). As is, my only defense in the event of a school shooting is to decide in advance on the best way of escape (if there is any at all) if a gunman walked in.

This has already been the law in Utah for years, and we yet to have any mass shootings at our schools because of it. And people love to constantly bring up this scenario where one concealed firearm permit holder shoots another because they thought they were a threat, but despite the fact that there are millions of permit holders and have been for years, no one has ever been able to point out to me a situation where this has ever happened.

Hey guys, can somebody show me any time in US history where gun laws were relaxed and a correlating spike in gun crime rates followed?

Hard to say. It has literally never happened before. Maybe never?

Don't be ridiculous.

I doubt this is what wookie was thinking of, but I do sort of take issue with the laws on that level as well for this reason: Banning guns on campus effectively disarms me for my entire day, 5 days a week, simply because I am a student. I have to walk to campus, so (using this semester as an example, and I have fewer classes this semester than ever before) from 8:00 in the morning, when I leave my house, to 3:15 in the afternoon, when I finish class, through any lunches, through getting some food on the way back to class, through shopping I do at the store on the way back from class, including if I stay on campus to study or stop at the coffee shop for a few hours to do some reading, so often through around 5:00-7:00, I am unarmed. That is my entire day.

Now, am I cowering in fear the entire time thinking I'm going to die? No. But I am extremely annoyed that I cannot exercise my right at all when I am in school, because I walk to campus. Again, if they really want to ban weapons on campus, I'd appreciate a security checkpoint and a locker or something so I'm not unarmed for my entire day simply because I'm a student. (I'd appreciate not being treated like a criminal more, though)

I have no idea how it works at most colleges, but where I went, you could store guns at the campus police station. I think it was more of a long-term storage option though, not a daily check-in type thing.

Yeah, you can do that here, too...but the campus police station is at the far end of campus, a 20 minute walk out of my way, and yes, it is more for long-term storage. By the time I went through all that, I might as well just walk home, grab my gun, and walk back to wherever I was going. Kind of a silly amount of trouble to go to just to have my gun while I read a book.

At least currently, there is pretty much absolutely no correlation between the two. If there was, in this following graph we'd expect a pretty linear bottom left to top right relationship. Now obviously, there are a lot of other factors that can play into these states being high-violence or low-violence, but this is just generally speaking. IIRC, gun ownership has risen greatly as well but our gun homicide rates have dropped.

In fact, the only times I can remember where gun control was tightened, it often led to INCREASES in crime, like DC or late 60s America. But like I said, I'm sure there are many counter-acting examples as well

The current low crime rates are because of legalized abortion. Not because of gun control.

Holy thread revival, right? Just got this in my email about what our school has decided concerning the gun issue. Thought some of you might find it interesting.

"Dear Students, Faculty, and Staff:
President James D. Spaniolo

The Texas Legislature is currently considering several bills that I know many of you are following with great interest and an increasing level of concern and alarm—legislation that could allow concealed handguns on college campuses across Texas.
I have followed very closely the disparate views that have been expressed on this issue, and I am keenly aware of and sensitive to the arguments in favor of this legislation. But I have concluded that allowing concealed handguns on campus would not make UT Arlington—or any college campus—a safer place.
As president of UT Arlington, my top priority must always be to do everything possible to ensure the safety and security of our students, faculty, staff, and visitors. I firmly believe—as does virtually everyone in leadership positions at colleges and universities and in law enforcement—that allowing concealed handguns on campus would significantly increase the potential for members of our community to be injured or killed.
Numerous individuals, groups, and institutions have expressed their views on this subject in the past two weeks.

*
On Tuesday, UT Arlington’s Student Congress adopted a resolution—by a vote of 36 to 6—against the proposed concealed-carry bills that have been introduced in the Legislature. Student Congress also sponsored a well-attended campus forum on the issue last week.
*
UT System Chancellor Francisco Cigarroa sent a letter to Governor Rick Perry last week strongly expressing the concerns of the many constituents of the UT System institutions.
*
The Texas Council of Student Services Vice Presidents, which comprises 46 public institutions across the state, has expressed in a letter to legislators the serious concerns its members have on this issue. Frank Lamas, vice president for student affairs at UT Arlington, serves as chair-elect of this group.

We are fortunate to be a part of a vibrant campus community where debate and dialogue are part of the fabric of intellectual exchange. We must ensure that our campus is a safe place for pursuing and advancing an education. Allowing concealed handguns on our campus would be antithetical to our mission.

Sincerely,
James D. Spaniolo
President"

Yes, because the LEGAL ONES are the ones to worry about.

Despite the fact that I don't think weapons should be allowed on-campus, I think it's wrong that the president is using the university's infrastructure to push his political message to the entire student body. Seems a bit of an abuse of position.

According to the e-mail, the students don't want them on campus either.

They could always not carry - that would solve the problem.

Since we're reviving this thread, is there anyone who would like to address the point I brought up in my first post in this thread? I really would like to see someone else's thoughts on this particular aspect, since I've never really expressed it from this point of view before.

To recap: I disagree with banning weapons on campus when no effort is made to enforce this ban, because in this situation only those who respect the ban and are in their right minds will abide by it, and those are the people we need to worry about least.

Given that the same argument could be simultaneously used to justify unlimited civil liberties, and used to satirize the existence of any civil liberties at all, I'm not exactly sure what to say.

I think I'm a nihilist now.