Yeah but my main point was that it still costs a lot of money to record and produce an album no matter who's involved.

Okay... I just don't think you can blame the situation on streaming or digital downloads :p

I think that saying I'm not supporting artists by streaming is incorrect. I am facing the future. The more these services become popular, the more the labels are forced to pay attention to them. Hopefully artists stand up for themselves and demand their just pay, but buying CDs just to support a band is, if nothing else, only delaying the problem. If this happened 30 years ago as people moved from records/tapes to CDs, do you really think the whole population would have continued buying records? That's silly.

If digital music is somehow superior then why does it sound better when I play vinyl on my beautiful 80's hi-fi set?

Also, I was under the impression that analogue recordings are superior in the low frequencies, not the high ones. But it's the high ones that don't matter. I could be wrong about that, but it's what I seem to remember from an excessive e-mail exchange about digital vs. analogue between a friend of mine and Bob Weston / Steve Albini.

Then again, that was years ago, so my memories of it are a bit foggy.

My preference for buying new music is actually to look for the vinyl first. The releases I buy generally come with a digital download, so I can listen to that on my phone/computer/car and have the vinyl for my home listening needs.

If you can get yourself some decent vintage gear and a new stylus/cartridge, there should be no worry of wearing down your records as long as everything is properly calibrated and well kept. My system sounds pretty solid for only having about $150 into it.

Part of it could be down to modern mastering techniques where idiots seem to think everything needs to be loud as possible and it results in a loss of certain frequencies etc. Check out the loudness war stuff on wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Another thing could be that a lot of people like the warmth you get from an analogue recording. Personally I really like that little crackle you get from putting the needle on the record.

I don't see a problem with using internet radio CM, but blaming "the labels" for everything is dumb. I may make a post later.

Possible reasons: your vinyl LPs have much better recordings (lots of CDs are mastered poorly, especially ones from the early 80s), your 80's hi-fi set is better than whatever you use to play digital music, your digital music is poorly encoded. Or, more likely it isn't better and you just think it is. Ever do a blind test to find out?


CDs go down to 20 Hz which can barely be heard anyway. Also, this is going to sound really pompous, but don't listen to recording artists when it comes to actual theory about the stuff they use. They may get great results but a lot of them buy into ridiculous bull**** like expensive cables and other nonsense. Talk to an electrical engineer if you really wanna know how stuff works. Talk to the people that actually design and build the systems the artists use.

A good way to rule out someone's understanding of audio equipment is to ask them about double blind testing. Audiophile idiots insist double blind testing is somehow inherently flawed, and they use this as a rationalization for why double blind tests show time and again that the bull**** they buy is complete snakeoil.

You tell 'em Master Emon.

Hey Xasthur contrary to whatever you think, Emon is pretty knowledgeable on the subject.

I prefer analog because of the warm tone it offers over digital. I could care less about how superior digital frequencies are in comparasion.

Well yeah, that just comes down to preference though.

Also, there are ways to fake that with digital

Lol, I was thinking more along the lines of horse refuse where you can physically see the poorly chewed feed... But yes sometimes I like to nibble.

Exactly. If you have a perfect reproduction via digital, there's no reason you couldn't "warm it up" afterwards.

All of the upsides, none of the downsides.

Apart from the fact that the majority of digital masters are still mince.

What is the "warm tone" you are describing? There is no such coloration from vinyl. You might be thinking of the distortion from high voltage tube amps, but it's actually a lot less than you think.

If you've never done a double blind test on what you know about audio, it might be entirely bull****. Audio is an incredibly subjective sense.

Trusting a recording "engineer" about actual science is like trusting a makeup artist about dermatology.

Or trusting kevin trudeau about anything...

Theres a noticeable difference in analog & digital circuits which I'm sure you know. I have no idea about the 'warmth' in vinyl though

I'm still gunna listen to lp's

seriously xasthur. just relax.

Wow. Just... wow. Does it seriously matter that other people's opinions aren't the same as one's own?

On the other hand, by saying thatm I am suggesting that my opinion that everyone is entitled to their opinion is bettervthan the opinion of those who try to sway others' to their own opinions, and thus have sunk to the level of this thread. THE MADNESS IS CONTAGIOUS!!!

May God have mercy on my soul.

HEY AL CIAO UR OPINION IS WRONG >:(

It is? That doesn't surprise me. I'm often wrong.

It'd probably be a pretty healthy discussion but people around here don't know how to not offend people (apparently) and the other people don't know how not to be offended

Did anyone else think this thread was going to be about a Massassi musical? I think it has awesomely terrible potential.

Nah, Geb, it has terribly awesome potential, not awesomely terrible potential. YOU SUCK!

(This is your cue to start a pointless mudslingingfest.)

That could work if we could get massassian musicians to write it.

And Tracer to use his degree to make it good...

The only digital part of say, CD audio, is the conversion from PCM data on the disc to an analog signal. The amplifier is just as analog as everything else. If you're talking about the difference between a tube amp and a solid state amp, both of them are analog. A good tube amp will be fairly linear and transparent. Amps for instruments are intentionally non-linear to provide a particular pleasing sound, but you don't generally want that for playback

There's nothing wrong with LPs. They're a nice experience and fun to play.

If anyone really wants to know more about this, check out HydrogenAudio, the people there know way more than me. One of the few very scientifically minded audio enthusiast forums on the internet. So much so that making non-obvious claims about audio quality (like "this amp sounds better than that amp") must be backed up with ABX test results -- it's part of the terms of service.

holy ****, I think I'm in love

Slight correction -- backed up with empirical evidence, some sort of measurement for any claim not reasonably believable by word. E.g. "my onboard audio makes clicking noises" vs "my onboard audio doesn't sound as warm and airy as my high end CD player"

Emon, a forum that says "You are a tool because..." is still ahead of most forums which stop at "you are a tool."

I think I understand. It's the difference between, "Jon C, you are awesome," and "Jon C, you are awesome BECAUSE it says so in your title."

Just curious, do you know who Albini is? He really knows the science, builds a lot of his own equipment.

Also, I forgot the exact reason, but from those conversations I mentioned I seem to remember something about the difference between digital and analogue media. They say in digital, it is easier to differentiate between the frequencies, instruments can be told apart more easily. In analogue the frequencies mesh together more, which leads to a less clinical sound; a more cohesive sound which so many people describe as that 'warm sound'.

Also tube amps > transistor amps. But that's a whole other story and indeed has to do with gain.



Yeah, you mean compression. It's hard to find a decent fully dynamic recording these days.

Yeah but I wasn't sure you'd know what I was talking about if I said that.

It is exactly this kind of handwaving nonsense I'm talking about. I don't know much about signal theory but I'm pretty sure that's a load of crap. Less clinical? Warm sound? Common, you haven't even explained why it happens! No one can because the people that promote that don't know anything about it.


For what purpose? For reproduction (what I've been talking about), that's complete garbage. It's easy to make a completely transparent solid state amp. Hell they sell them as chips these days. And by completely transparent I mean measurable in every possible way. Tube amps are great for instruments but that's different.

Seriously. Listen to real engineers, not "recording engineers." I don't care how good results they get, it doesn't mean **** when it comes to understanding what they use. And even the smartest people can buy into audiophile nonsense.

If you don't have empirical evidence for a particular claim about audio, then it's worthless. It's no different than any other science.

...and which so many other people describe as 'inductive coupling.'

'Warm sound' = noise, reverberation and crosstalk. All things that will get an engineer fired.

*you hope would

engineer ≠ "engineer"

Amar Bose is an "engineer."