Probably nobody bothers to post here anymore because everything there sucks.

Hey look 10k posts.

Good thing it's in clear text so everyone can see it and judge me based on my post count.

so that means anyone with more posts than the site's founder is a pathetic loser with no life....

hm, a 320gb external with firewire for $64+5.. doesn't really seem like much of a deal to me

yeah i know... i might have time to watch a movie before the next item comes up... let me see... the full version of Das Boot should do it

Good thing you're the only person in Massassi history to feel persecuted by their post count.

Seriously.

Honestly I think keeping post counts hidden, and the complete lack of ranks/levels/etc. (except moderators, of course) is the #1 best way to start, grow, and maintain a community site. But meh, what do I know?

hey brian! stop derailing your own thread

This thread sucks anyway.

Apparently nothing, since even massassi has had post counts in, at the very least hex, since 2002? You're being pedantic, and making a big deal out of something that no one in the history of Massassi has had issues with. No one was ever judged poorly based on post count, except in the self deprecating manner. In fact, it was actually a fun topic of discussion at various points in Massassi history.

If you can't come up with actual reasons why it's such a bad idea here, then I propose we leave the subject matter alone, yes?

I think that is all that needs to be said about that.

Actually if you look up in the thread I'm not the one that started talking about post counts, I was merely replying to someone. You're sitting here telling me that nobody cares about them but ... well that can't be true, now can it, given that it came up in a completely unrelated thread? And frankly, you haven't been here for the "history of Massassi" so will you stop with the lectures? You do realize that the hex post counts were put in when I owned and/or managed the site right? And you do realize that originally they didn't have the human-readable hover thing until much later right? And you do realize that it's virtually impossible to tell if someone goes over 5k or 10k or whatever other arbitrary number when they're not displayed directly, right? And you do realize that new people coming to the site never had any clue wtf those numbers were anyway, right?


If you want me to stop responding to people that comment about my post count you're going to have to ban me.

I never, even once said no one cared. I said no one had issues with it. No one was judged on it. Which, except for your own ridiculous values, is still true.

A. I was here for the significant history of Massassi, don't pull that. I was registered on the UBB forums in 1999, and even lurked back in the WWWBoards days. If that doesn't qualify for knowing the vast majority of Massassi's history, then what does? Besides, now you're being elistist over history.
B. Yes, you put in hex post counts. Why did you put them in at all if you didn't want people to look at them?
C. Yes, no one cared about the 10k mark anymore. Instead, People cared about 0x1337, 0x1000, and post counts that spelled out words. And you know what, no one had problems with this. It's not like people lorded it over others. In fact, it was often the opposite, where posters would proclaim how much of their lives had been lost to Massassi.
D. You felt judged in this thread for no reason, KOP merely pointed it out.
E. Yes, people had no idea what the hex counts meant, which meant that members could harass newbies by making crap up. So much for fostering community?

I can go all day with you on this Brian, I just didn't think it was worth it. You know, considering it's just a bunch of numbers?

Yay I qualify for knowing the vast majority of massassi's history! Except I just don't remember it.

And apparently, neither does Brian.

Gaia Online, d2jsp, IGN, Nexopia, VN, and hundreds of other huge forums and communities would say that you don't know as much as you think you do.

Hey everyone come look, the Olympians are fighting with the Titans!

In fact, I didn't say having a community site w/out all that rank/status stuff was the only way to start, grow, and maintain a community site, I said it was the best way. Of course my definition of best may be different than yours, but I for one think there's enough elitist rankism in the real world. We don't need forums/message boards that are text-based MMORPGs where people get achievements and loot and fancy armor for posting a lot.

You're the only one here who actually thinks there is elitist rankism going on over post counts, on Massassi. And as my previous post itemized, your "solution" for that non-problem actually created a problem where there was none. Of course, many years later, we all know what the hex code means, and no one really cares anymore. But here you are, arguing with me over it.

Edit: I mean, seriously, if elitist rankism is going on, then Avenger must own our souls entirely.

1. I can pull whatever the hell I want. When you talk condescendingly to me and lecture me about Massassi history, especially.
2. I actually didn't put them, someone else put in post counts and I told them no. They replaced them with hex and I thought it was funny so they stayed.
3. And those are funny because they have meaning outside the number of posts a user has made.
4. I didn't feel judged...? It's a stupid derail of the thread that never would have happened had that stupid number not been displayed.
5. um wut

I like how this **** works nowadays. I post a thread about woot, someone makes a comment about post counts, I reply, and I get jumped all over like I'm the anti-christ. And then you try to come off as if it's no big deal after telling me to drop it... when I didn't bring it up in the first place. It's like 1st grade all over again!

It seems like you think I said some **** that I never actually said. I am saying that having post counts and ranks and reputation and user levels and all that **** promotes the kind of crap that makes forums suck. It turns them into a bunch of circle-jerks where the long-time members jizz all over each other and enjoy it and the newbies coming in have to go through some ****ty form of online hazing to be part of the club. Most realize that it's stupid right away and go find another forum.

I'm not saying it's already like that, you've only had the stupid post counts up for a couple of days.

The massassi forums generally have a fun, non-serious vibe about them. You come in and you see weird numbers and weird titles under peoples names and it makes you think, WTF? But what you don't see are rep point sliders, trophies, achievements, join dates, locations, etc. Every single forum I've visited that has and focuses on those (and it's really hard to get people to NOT focus on them when they're plastered everywhere) suck. Newbies can come in and make a valid argument to a long-time poster with 8 million rep points and nobody takes them seriously because their rep slider is shorter.

Elitist and condescending, both attributes you have mastered quite well already in this thread. I chose to lecture you about Massassi history since apparently you wish to sugar coat it.
Last I checked, they're still based on post count, so their meaning is actually directly related to the number of posts they've made. I mean, seriously, are you even reading your own posts?
Could have fooled me!
Don't you remember that, from your masterful memory of Massassi history?

You took issue with it. Immediately. Otherwise I would have had no reason to even post here. Especially with all this passive aggressive crap. You have no one but yourself to blame here. Your reasons aren't based in reality, your memory of Massassi forums is fuzzy at best, you're passive aggressive at anything that is "different" on the forums, you take issue with things that are already slated to be fixed (hex post counts!), etc. Frankly, you shouldn't be surprised that I'm taking issue with you here. I've gotten nothing but a strong vibe that you hate me over the new forums or something. So please, if I'm wrong, feel free to say so.

Oh, and let me say finally:

The fact that you think this community cannot handle simple things such as post counts maturely without devolving into a bunch of high schoolers over fashion is horrible. It shows a complete lack of faith in this community that you worked to build. Does Massassi tend to argue more nowadays? Maybe, but we're also a lot older than we used to be. And smaller. We all have views that we're passionate about, and we defend those views. Sometimes it gets out of hand, but it is not out of control. Post counts aren't going to change anything, and they never, ever have.

You did, and I said you were wrong.

The only decision you ever made that helped 'start' a community was the decision to host editing tutorials and an internet forum on the same page.

Since I was going to type it anyway.

http://www.woot.com/

Do you know what the term "passive aggressive" means? It really seems like you don't. I've done nothing to hide my "aggressive" feelings or opinions behind "passive" behaviors. You posted a thread asking for feedback, I gave it to you. I don't have any personal negative feelings against you whatsoever, I simply disagree with you on your decision to show post counts. I didn't realize this would hurt your feelings, but if you don't want frank and honest opinions, don't ask for them. I'll state it again, since you keep ignoring it. This thread was not derailed by me so don't tell me to blame myself for you coming in here and jumping all over me.

First, this is an extremely limited view of what I've done in my life around online communities. Second, the original Massassi didn't have any forums whatsoever and stayed that way for quite a while.

I already quoted where you went off the deep end, so if you want to play denial, you can do that all day long. This whole argument was never about frank and honest opinions. It was all based on what I perceived as a snide remark on the continued existence of plain post counts after I had already addressed the issue when I upgraded the forums. And then I pointed out how plain text post counts were absolutely, in no way shape or form any better than the hex counts you allowed onto Massassi back in 2002. After that, you decided it necessary to point out that Massassi must be a bunch of monkeys that cannot handle the responsibility of post counts, and must be disguised behind said hex versions. At which point I revealed to you in numerous ways why your concepts of "elistist rankings" via post counts were completely baseless. Finally, you continued to argue over things like Massassi history and who started first, instead of actually addressing the opinion you insist you're putting forth.

I think that's an accurate summary, yes?

Nope, not at all.

I don't see what the big deal about post counts is anyway.

Oh, and btw, I just realized you are adding stuff to your posts later and I don't go back and reread the entire thread every time I hit reply so it makes it very difficult to have a conversation with you.

So we need to get rid of post counts and the ability to edit posts to make Brian happy.

And unicorns.

Also, ban Pokeman

How convenient: the original Massassi didn't have any community whatsoever.

Every time I've ever seen you start or be involved in an online community, you always follow the same formula. Pairing a forum with an extrinsic purpose is a good thing. The trouble is, when you and your successors starve the extrinsic purpose to death, you end up with a stagnant, unhealthy community which is afraid of change.

But, you know, I'm sure your other ultra-minimalist forums about nothing are doing great.

Well put! Well, that solves that mystery! Alright gang, back to the van!

As usual, Jon`C I really don't know where to go with your posts. I'm going to pretend that you really have something to say but that you're just having a hard time getting it out. So I'd really like for you to just say it. I really don't understand what you're trying to say with each of your sentences... so... My questions below are numbered to coincide with each sentence in your post.

1. How is the fact that massassi didn't have a community at first convenient? I never intended to create a community site because I loved DarkJedi.com and felt that the only thing it was missing was tutorials.
2. Yes, in my personal sites I have generally followed the same formula.
3. Yes, I think that having forums only is lame, there's got to be something else to initially drive traffic to a site. If it's interesting content people will want to talk about it.
4. What do you mean "starve the extrinsic purpose to death?" Jedi Knight is old and dead. This doesn't make the people who played the game and created addons and whatnot uninteresting. I don't believe sites like Massassi should just close because JK is dead. Are you trying to say that this site and others like it should close since there's no new content around the site's original purpose?
5. As always you seem to think you know everything about everyone based on what they've posted here. I've worked at a lot of places and indeed written forum/message board software for some really big sites. Deals worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to the company I was working for at the time. My personal projects are just that, personal. I ran the Massassi forums in the way I thought they should be run. You continue to insult me and Massassi every chance you get; what doesn't make sense is that if you hate this place so much, why do you stick around?

Okay:

You don't have a clue what you're talking about. You got lucky with Massassi, period, and every other community-building idea you've had has failed miserably. You have no business lecturing anybody on how to build a community or keep it healthy.

This is a difficult post to reply to because it's a mix of common sense, lack of information, and incorrect information.

We need to agree on something before we can have a real conversation about this: Massassi succeeded (at least at some point). (I assume you agree with this since you said I got lucky with massassi.)

So let's talk about Massassi first. I didn't create Massassi with the intention of turning it into a community site. I created it to post some tutorials. I eventually included forums. At this point it was an editing community -- a bunch of people creating addons for JK. However, it didn't get comparable traffic to other JK sites (well, JediKnight.net which was the biggest) until we added levels/addons. So in this sense Massassi didn't succeed because it was a community site, the community grew up around the other aspects of the site (tutorials, which initially were created by me, but eventually there were tons of other authors as well; and levels/mods, which most definitely weren't created by me). So yes of course I was lucky with Massassi. I was lucky that people helped me write tutorials. I was lucky that authors submitted their levels/mods. I was lucky that I had a fleet of unpaid volunteers to help post all the submissions. I was lucky that certain people (spart, for instance) saw value in the content of our site despite the fact that it was ugly as sin. I have never, and will never, contend that Massassi's success was solely the result of my hard work. My hard work over the years is only a fraction of a percent of what it took to make this site awesome. And regardless of what you or other people say, I still say the site was and is awesome.

My opinion is that there needs to be content in order to grow a community in the first place. You say I'm completely wrong and I just got lucky. Please tell me where I went wrong.

Now I'll address your contention that I have failed miserably at every other community-building idea that I've had. Please list for me any other "community building" ideas that I've had and failed at. I can list some SITES I've had that didn't turn out to be very popular. But I contend that these weren't popular because the games they were based on sucked.

Indiana Jones: license prohibited editing, site got quite a lot of traffic and had active forums for a short amount of time (<1 year)

Force Commander: Game sucked. We got quite a bit of traffic for our review and some tech support threads but site failed (duh)

Serious Sam: Was a section of Massassi, got tons of traffic, biggest level/mod db until I stopped working on it, decent traffic on forums, best tutorials and a lot of traffic.

VampireCentral: Good traffic, active forums, got job offer at Gamespy based on this site (couldn't take it because I was in the military at the time), ended up managing PlanetVampire.com for a while on the side but I didn't like the game once it came out so stopped working on it.

SWOnline or something, Justen took it over because I wasn't into the game.

In all these cases I was creating sites based on games. These are obviously going to be short-lived sites with traffic that falls off over time (and people stop playing the game). If you contend that Massassi is the only success of all of these because none of the rest are still around, I call bull****.

I've also worked on the software for a bunch of community sites that I can't list because I'm under NDA. Suffice it to say I worked for a company that serviced non-profits. After my contract was up I was offered a full time job (but didn't take it because I found another job at which I could work from home).

Now we can talk about the forum software I wrote on the side (while commuting back & forth on the ferry to Seattle). I didn't ever have the intention of creating a community with that software, the intention was to sell it. Working on something 2 hours a day for months in addition to my 8 hour a day regular job was too much and I eventually stopped working on it before ever making a public "for sale" site. Call this a failure if you will but I learned a lot about scaling (it could handle > 50 million posts on a single server whereas vb at the time choked at about 5 million on same hardware), I learned a lot about database tuning, etc. You could argue that I never had a chance in hell of selling it even if I did ever finish it. You could be right, *shrug*

So is there anything in particular I missed?

No, your opinion is that "keeping post counts hidden, and the complete lack of ranks/levels/etc. (except moderators, of course) is the #1 best way to start, grow, and maintain a community site."

I agree totally that having content is central to the development of a community. Too bad this is not what you said and not what I disagreed with.

Yeah: you're missing the point. The whole reason you're whiny isn't to keep Massassi alive, it's because you have personal preferences and you think you can impose them on everyone else with some flimsy appeal to authority.

Your software work is completely irrelevant. If being able to write a forum package made you an expert in social media, VBulletin.com would be the most popular site on the internet.

Forgive me for mistyping, indeed I meant "keeping post counts hidden, and the complete lack of ranks/levels/etc. (except moderators, of course) is the #1 best way to start, grow, and maintain a forum."

I think you're missing the point if you think I'm trying to impose anything on anyone. Just like everyone else on this site I have the right to an opinion, and I have a right to express that opinion when the site owner asks for it.

My software work may or may not be irrelevant, and it may or may not be a "flimsy appeal to authority," but the problem here is that it's very difficult to have a conversation with you because you never speak with enough specificity so I'm constantly having to guess what the **** you're talking about. Perfect example, when you said, "You got lucky with Massassi, period, and every other community-building idea you've had has failed miserably." I was forced to try to remember every community building idea I've ever had. Since writing software to support huge communities could be construed as a "community-building idea" I was forced to include it.