So do ya?

For me I think it was a result of my father being an aviation buff. I am usually lost if I cannot invert y in any sort of sim/FPS situation.

yes for flying, no for everything else.

Always. Just seems natural.

This.

Yeah, down should only go up if I'm gonna be dodging bogies. Otherwise, I want to be able to aim up by looking up.

-The mouse is, in an odd way, not at all an intuitive control method for simulating the motion of the head, is it.

Always invert. ALWAYS!

If this ratio maintains consistency, I will finally understand why so many shooters have those ridiculous bits at the start when they have to you point at lights with the reticule to find out if you like normal or inverted aim.

I always assumed that normal was, well, normal.

Inverted is the correct way, but naturally they have to put in a non-invert option for you weirdos.

People who think pushing the mouse forward = looking up must live very confusing lives. Think of your own head. When you want to look up, you tilt your head back. When you want to look down, you tilt your head forward.

Non-inverted looking is a conspiracy.

Mostly depends on the game, usually inverted but there are the occasional non inverted times for me.

Fixed that for you.

-Inverted Y in FPSes is all kinds of backwards and unusual. It only makes sense in flight sims because that's how real controls work. (Right?)

forward is pushing the mouse 'up'. On the desktop you move the cursor up the screen. When you push the mouse forward, the crosshair goes up. Therefore forward = up, up = up and inverted is just wrong making up down is backwards.

edit: Inverters, shouldn't you use the same logic to argue for inverting X as well?

Non-inverted.

Inverted, always.

Always used inverted, it feels weird the other way.
Also, I don't accept any logic arguments for either side, both are perfectly acceptable and natural, it's just that once you get used to one you tend to stick with it

Jedi Knight was my first use of a mouse for fps and that natively had inversion so that kind of set the standard for me and all other games. Pisses my friends off to no end.

Always.

Not at all. You're not thinking about how your head actually moves. In fact, even your own description isn't entirely accurate, as the face moves backward and slightly down as your neck rotates. Keep in mind the axis of rotation. It's not the center of your head, it's your neck.




Except when you push up, the crosshair DOESN'T MOVE. The perspective changes. You're moving your character's head, or the camera so to speak. If the crosshair did move, I would absolutely be in agreement and not invert. But it doesn't.

And as for the x axis, absolutely not. Your actual head has a central axis of rotation on the x, so there's no inversion needed. Your neck doesn't rotate right to turn your head left.

The crosshair moves upwards in the 3d world. It's pointing to a higher point, one above where it was previously... in other words, it goes up.



That seems like a really weird way of rationalising it since your head isn't actually moving, in this case it's your hand.

I always played inverted probably because JK defaulted to this

Non inverted. I don't care if I am technically moving a camera or the characters head, it just feels right to point to where I want to shoot as if I am moving the crosshair like a mouse cursor.

The crosshair isn't moving at all. It's a 2D surface applied on top of the perspective of the scene. It's a fixed point. By your logic, if one were to zoom out, the crosshair should get smaller. Ironically, if you use the idea of a gun scope instead of a regular FPS crosshair, my logic fits even better, since you have to pull the front of the gun back to look up.


Says the one who's rationalizing that a crosshair is actually part of the game world? Do you think Gordon Freeman walks around with a transparent paper over his face, with crosshairs drawn on it?

I think the idea of having a directly-relatable motion from ingame to real life is perfectly sensible. Not rationalization at all.

No. You point the front of the gun up. You look up. Everything is up.

I'm looking at the back of the guy's head. If someone moves the back of my head down I look up.

Ok, so your virtual head is inside a virtual hamster ball, upon which is painted your crosshairs. Some folk like to have their hand inside the ball with their hand on the crosshair, moving it about. To look up, they rotate their ball by pushing the front up.

Other people, like Matty and I have the same idea, except we control our virtual ball as if we were holding the outside of it from the back.

IS EVERYBODY CLEAR AND HAPPY?

Good.

It is up, and you go up by pulling back.



Yes except we're right and they're wrong.

if someone moves the front of your head (Where your eyes are...) up you look up. Still seems backwards to me



Or push the front of the gun up...

The only way to look up is to pull your head back. If they're pushing the front of your head, they're still moving your head back from your perspective.

Non-inverted.

I guess my reasoning (other than simply being used to it) is that while inverted feels natural with a joystick because you actually tilt it back and forth, like you do your head, whereas with a mouse you move it up and down a surface and there's no tilting emulative of the head movement involved. Since I'm using the same input method I do on the desktop - even though I'm moving the perspective instead of the cursor - it feels right to me for the reticle to move in the same direction I move my mouse.

On the other hand, I go with non-inverted with a gamepad as well, so it's really just because I'm used to it.

Non-inverted unless using a joystick. When I first played FPS with a controller, I inverted, but learned to play that non-inverted as well because it was inconvenient to change control schemes with friends every time the controller was passed to me.

Guys, you're talking past each other because one group thinks of mouse movement as forward/back and the other thinks of it as up/down.

These arguments are idiotic. You are using your mouse to move your view around on a computer screen. Nobody walks around IRL with a mouse and moves it to look this way or that. People dont use inverted or non-inverted because they feel like its closest to real life, they do it one way or the other because they started out one way or the other while playing a video game and try to rationalize that their way is the "correct" way because they are inherently inclined to feel that what comes naturally to them is the "right" thing in life.

I started out playin inverted, because JK was defaulted that way, and then an addon for Half Life came out one day called Rune, which I thought was pretty cool at the time and wanted to play it, but for some reason the developer(s) of the addon made it so that you could ONLY play non-inverted. So I re-trained myself to play that mod with a non-inverted mouse and have played that way since simply because I'm used to it not because I feel that it is necessarily the right way.

Oh my goodness.. this quote proves, absoltuely PROVES that FPS games are creating real life KILLERS!

Definitely wasn't the case for me. First FPS where I used the mouse was JK (previously i'd only played doom and quake and used the keys to aim...) touched the mouse and thought "WTF this is backwards" and changed it immediately. Probably, however, due to being used to the desktop... I see something interesting in the top left of my screen, I move the mouse up and to the left to interact with it, makes sense to carry that over to games. By the way, I'm not trying to argue that one way is better, I just honestly cant comprehend how inverted doesn't feel totally backwards.

In your examploe, you're moving the mouse within the screen. In games, if you think of the cursor as the mouse, you're moving the screen around the mouse instead.

Technically, yes, but the relative vectors of all the parts is the same, screen, curosr and physical mouse.

It'll be a cold day in hell when KOP_Snake gets to call someone on being an idiot.

Every game. Every single game. I can't stand non-inverted Y axis. I use the hand on top of head analogy.

Hmm, that makes a lot of sense to me, hand on the mouse = hand on the head. I like it.

To me it is irrelevant what type of controller I'm using. I pull back to look up. Sometimes a third person game will feel wrong when I invert Y and I might disable it but, inevitably I end up looking the wrong way at some point and end up changing it at some point.

So, who inverts X? I have found myself, at times, sliding the controller, let's say, to the left feeling like I need to rotate around the left of the character to view to the right. It's an odd sensation.



Or just that real life KILLERS play FPS games.