I was a Bible-thumping Christian creationist who had it set in his head that Christianity was the only way, and just couldn't understand why people didn't see that, when God did all of those terrible things in the Bible, he really did it out of love. How dare you judge the Almighty?

So, this is to say, "Thanks, and sorry."

Thanks, because, more than a decade after the fact, I've gone from a young-Earth Christian creationist to an activist atheist, secularist, proponent of evolution (both the Theory and the theory), LGBT equality activist, and a host of other things that are probably different from my twelve-year-old self. It's largely due to talking with you guys, because you introduced me to ideas that existed outside of my small suburb in the middle of the Bible Belt (just a few hours away from the "Buckle" of the belt, Springfield!).

Sorry, because I'm sure I was annoying as Hell. I came off as smug, elitist, and damned stubborn, to boot. You put up with me and responded to my posts even when the outlook probably indicated that there would be no benefit. I'm here to say that there was.

So, yeah. Thanks, and sorry.

And here I always thought you just typed loud.

Just try and remember to keep your mind sharp and questioning, regardless of where you are or what you think. Acting like a prick is annoying no matter your belief system.

I know exactly how you feel. However, I didn't have age as an excuse (I was in my twenties). I was on the "how does something come from nothing?--god did it" team.

Preach it brother! You and me both. <_<

I went through something similar, although I wasn't quite as extreme, and I didn't change because of massassi. Still, I can really relate to the feeling.

It's liberating, isn't it?

It's always interesting to see things like this happen. It's amazing to know that people in this world are actually capable of changing their viewpoint. Kind of refreshing.

Well, have you turned into an anti-christian yet? It's different from an athiest. You don't just not believe in God; you specifically believe that Christianity is wrong.

Wouldn't it seem that if one doesn't believe in God, that the person in question would have to believe that Christianity is fundamentally wrong?

i think he means militantly against Christianity.

Oh, if that's the case, then I would have to suggest that Wolfy not become on of those douchebags. You can play all the cards you want to saying that Christianity makes the world a bad place and all that bull****, but the fact of the matter is, you're just wasting your breath because it's not going away any time soon.

Antitheism irritates me.

**** you.

Glad to be of service.

What happened to all the christians from there anyway? I always remember *ahem* debating with a guy named DogsROOL (or similar)

Conversely, I argue in forums about religion because I have learned both how to refine my arguments to be more compelling, and how to accept and understand the values and opinions of others in a reconcilable way. I have learned a lot myself, and have also seen more than just Wolfy make major strides in directions they didn't seem to be going in. Because of this, I have to believe there's some value to the pages and pages of analyzing and debunking the same 20 arguments only to have a long thought out post ignored in favor of talking points. Sometimes it's the random lurker who had never thought about your argument in that way, or were unaware of a particular fact that they had assumed prior, or in this case, it's the staunch defender of ideals that eventually sees arguments he's disagreed with play out in person and reaffirm them.

I don't know if this last post is a spam bot, or just a brand new dumbass.

The last post (which is now deleted) was a spammer. His one other post included a bunch of spam links in his signature, so I took out ye olde Ban Antiperspirant Stick and beat the bot with it.

EDIT: I also remember posted on the Religious Forum back in the day. Mostly I remember typing out 20+ pages worth of logic etiquette only to have it promptly ignored. I was pretty dumb for thinking it'd get read and/or taken to heart.

Heh... now it looks like I'm accusing JediKirby of being either a spambot or a dumbass new member.

You and me both, Wolfy. I was indoctrinated into Mormonism as a child and it took me nineteen years to shake it off. If it weren't for this place it may have taken me longer. I'm not burning that religion or any other; it simply is not in my nature to belong to a group that so strongly wishes to shape my thoughts and behavior.

There isn't really a label for my rationale concerning existence. The word 'God' is worse than meaningless; I've never seen a word compel one to assume more about the person who utters it. I have noticed that the crux of the atheism vs. theism debate is more about the nature of God than the existence. For instance, if you explain to an atheist that your conception of God is far different than a typical Christian fundamentalist's conception, (for example, that god is the universe or like the force) he will often be able to find a bit of respect for you.

You could call me panentheist and you could also call me agnostic. I also don't mind being called atheist (a position with which I sympathize) nor theist. Though for most intents and purposes my behavior and attitude is agnostic. I prefer not to believe anything. By definition belief is uncertain. Instead of making a guess, throwing my support to a hunch or tradition, I am content to say that I am uncertain.

A lot of atheists/agnostics say something like "I'm 99.9999% certain that God doesn't exist." I kind of like that. They're right, you know. The God that people describe most certainly does not exist. Why would God be beholden to such an insultingly narrow definition? I rather like to think God doesn't exist at all before buying most of the descriptions of him that get tossed around.

Other than the Mormonism bit, i'm with freelancer as far as my beliefs about "god" go.

I will on the other hand say that i think a lot of religious institutions fall under the category of "evil" in my opinion. and it makes me mad.

Indeed. I was put through some pretty ****ty things during my time in one. It's perhaps a little too easy for me to hate them irrationally. I find it helpful to remember that being a religious institution grants it no special status apart from any other human institution. Like every human institution, it has its bad points and yes, good ones in there too sometimes.

Religious institutions are one of a handful that have mastered the exploitation of a fundamental human weakness: we far too often allow abstract concepts to have concrete power over us.

Wolfy: Takes a big man to say that.

I too have changed quite a bit, though I wasn't heavily involved in the forum religious debates. As Koobie pointed out a few months ago, I am no longer a Bible-thumping Christian. In a lot of ways, my reactions are still "knee-jerk" Christian, though. I tend to believe in God, but it doesn't particularly matter to me; he doesn't seem involved with me, despite all the prayers I sent his way, why should I bother with him?

I have become much more tolerant of beliefs and people in general, as well.

I do firmly maintain that anything is possible, though not all is probable. I will admit it is in fact possible that we're all in the Matrix right now, but that is extremely improbable.

Sorry, don't know how to play this video :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=jPmb0F00YPE

Wolfy I went through the samething during high school, and I also come from a very conservative town where many people did not like my ideas

Depends on who you talk to, I think. I've been fairly vocal recently about the whole Jessica Ahlquist snafu in Rhode Island, and I don't think that's engendered me toward my more religiously-conservative family.

My favourite part was your transformation from an anti-drinking activist to a raging alcoholic.

Maybe your ideas are just bad.

Nope, a lot of people in my town, despite graduating high school, didnt know what an atom was, or could define or briefly explain evolution.

Even experienced it outside of my town: one ghettoed out sack of **** straight from downtown Buffalo I used to work with found out I was an atheist and started making fun of me, he used to threaten me a lot. He told me a story about his little brother was in terrible health all the time when he was little and they always had to rush him to the emergency room, he didnt specify for what. But then he said that the doctors were in no part responsible for his well being, and that it was all gods doing, and the families faith in god that he was a healthy boy now and that I should feel pathetic and ashamed I dont have faith.

My response: If God and faith in God alone is enough to cure the boys sickness: Why did you bother taking him to the Doctors?

What a ****ing loser, how is someone that hypocritical and closed minded going to try and bully and torment me everyday for my beliefs? Most of religious America is like that. A girl from my town that I also worked with once tried telling me evolution was stupid, and that dinosaur bones are just human bones rearranged to look like monsters. What? Whaaat? What the ****?!

I'll admit, my experiences like this, as well as being forced to be confirmed have made me extremely biased. I have seen both sides of the story, I believed both. I realized I was being brainwashed from birth. Religion is child abuse, human beings should be exposed to as much as possible, every side of the story. I gaurantee you that if this were the case religion wouldn't even exist anymore except as a history subject that people studied.

I have plenty of christian friends, my uncle married a jewish woman, and I befriened quite a few muslims. As long as they keep it to themselves whatever. Heck, on tuesday for the first day of the new semester the first person that spoke to me was some guy who pestered me down the hall trying to get me e-mail so he could send me info on his bible study group. HEY *******, WE DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR STUDY GROUP.

As a junior level physics student. I can easily say without regret that we don't have all the answers. We don't claim to. Thats the point. It's about the search and journey towards discovery. Uncovering truths about ourselves and the universe. I once was convinced the Earth was created by a man in the sky and was 6000 years old. Now I only believe what can be proven to me.

Its time for christians to hang up their crosses and call it a day, your days as a dominant force on the planet are coming to an end.

Sorry if this comes off as harsh, but if this seriously offended anyones faith, get over yourself, people will be laughing at you 20,000 years from now just like we giggle at how the egyptians thought the change between day and night was caused by two gods battling, that is, if your religious wars dont destroy the species by then

Lately I've become less romanced with identity words. People are not "Christians," they're people who believe in specific things. The labels we give people are functional, but ultimately position their arguments or traditions as representitive of themselves as an individual. I think people are far more than their religious label.

I find it interesting that I wanted to quote some of the posts in this thread and tell people they're agnostic atheists, and why this is the most logical stance instead of claiming agnosticism, but then I realized that kind of thinking can only separate people. If your belief is functionally consistent with reality, religious or not, I probably don't really have much of a problem. Even people who have ****ed up beliefs because of their religion, I'm less likely to associate it to the body of their church and more to their own character. That is, until they start making those illogical arguments actively in defense of their own personal vindications that I get my atheist hat out.

Eh.

I'm tolerant.

Don't get annoyed easily.

The fundamentalists are kind of... yeah. I used to be one.

But I'm not anti-Christian or anti-religious in any way.

Some people are douchebags, regardless of what religion (or lack of) they profess.

That was a fun time. I think. Don't remember a lot of it.

I was brought up as a 'modern' Christian, nothing fundamentalist. It's not like my parents don't believe in Dinosaur bones or anything. My mother is reluctant to accept the idea of evolution, but she's like 'Well if evolution is a fact, then God must have designed it that way.' She understands that books like Genesis have more symbolical than literal meaning.

What personally turned me off about Christianity is that you HAVE TO believe in Jesus and what he stood for, otherwise there'll be no life after death for you. To me, that's just a terrorist incentive.

One day I decided that I have my own moral compass, and that I'd rather be judged based upon what I personally believe, instead of just forcing myself to do what others have decided is good for me. If it turns out there is a God, and he decides to condemn me to hell for all eternity because of that, so be it. Such a cruel God wouldn't be worth worshipping anyway. Not that I believe in hell.

I honestly can't believe in God any more. Not because I feel like he let me down, nothing like that. I'm just too much of a rational person to accept stuff that was 'written' thousands of years ago by a few tribesmen to keep their people under control. And I have to say, it kind of saddens me that I really don't believe in it. But it's the way it is. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if there turned out to be something after all. But when I look at the reality of the world we live in, it just sounds like a Disney fairytale.

As one of Firefox's grubby atheist companions I can say... I don't remember you in that forum at all... Your crusade must have been either rather brief or rather non-invasive.

Dormouse I dimly recall doing some agnostic/quasi-spiritualist hedge-sitting, but he wasn't going to put Nytro, Joren etc out of a job. Now if either of those two came back and proclaimed their non-belief I would be impressed!

Some quotes from that forum;





edit- also no thank-you/sorry ever required, you're getting muddled up with the Catholic church or something. If anything proclivity towards arguing religious matters is a minor atheist fault (see reddit, no I don't post there)

Gotta say Oog had me chuckling

oh my God, not the devel...

The greatest trick the devel(opers) ever pulled was convincing video gamers their games were worth crap.

Now if you'll just sign the TOS agreement...

Aaaaand, Geb wins the thread. We can all go home now.



Boo. Jesus would be disappointed in me that I didn't get a better testimonial about my deep belief in him and Creationism back then. :/ I do recall at least some people got pretty livid about the "Existence of Morat?" thread I started, so that's got to count for something in god's eyes.

Dammit! How are the rest of supposed to compete?



I AM home.



That, mein freund, is the whole point of grace. If he exists, I believe God wants us to be good in order that we be happy, not be good in order to maintain some arbitrary standard.



Does this imply that you no longer believe in him, or Creationism?



What, pray tell, is Morat? Also, I repeat my comments on grace and happiness, above. Finally... you earn brownie points with God for making people angry?

It's a town in Switzerland, apparently.