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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Beatles, overrated?
Beatles, overrated?
2017-11-08, 4:37 PM #1
I personally find them to be fine musicians, and rank some of their songs among my favorite (even if I don't often acknowledge this per se, because due to their overexposure, I don't need to think about "Let it Be" anymore to know that I like it).

Anybody read this, though? Supposedly it's pretty widely read. I never liked the Beatles more than the other `60's Brit-pop bands he mentions (with the exception of the Rolling Stones), but I never really tried to argue that the Beatles were grossly overrated. Maybe they are, though?

[quote=Piero Scaruffi]
The fact that so many books still name the Beatles as "the greatest or most significant or most influential" rock band ever only tells you how far rock music still is from becoming a serious art. Jazz critics have long recognized that the greatest jazz musicians of all times are Duke Ellington and John Coltrane, who were not the most famous or richest or best sellers of their times, let alone of all times. Classical critics rank the highly controversial Beethoven over classical musicians who were highly popular in courts around Europe. Rock critics are still blinded by commercial success. The Beatles sold more than anyone else (not true, by the way), therefore they must have been the greatest. Jazz critics grow up listening to a lot of jazz music of the past, classical critics grow up listening to a lot of classical music of the past. Rock critics are often totally ignorant of the rock music of the past, they barely know the best sellers. No wonder they will think that the Beatles did anything worthy of being saved.

In a sense, the Beatles are emblematic of the status of rock criticism as a whole: too much attention paid to commercial phenomena (be it grunge or U2) and too little to the merits of real musicians. If somebody composes the most divine music but no major label picks him up and sells him around the world, a lot of rock critics will ignore him. If a major label picks up a musician who is as stereotyped as can be but launches her or him worldwide, your average critic will waste rivers of ink on her or him. This is the sad status of rock criticism: rock critics are basically publicists working for major labels, distributors and record stores. They simply highlight what product the music business wants to make money from.

Hopefully, one not-too-distant day, there will be a clear demarcation between a great musician like Tim Buckley, who never sold much, and commercial products like the Beatles. At such a time, rock critics will study their rock history and understand which artists accomplished which musical feat, and which simply exploited it commercially.

Beatles' "Aryan" music removed any trace of black music from rock and roll. It replaced syncopated African rhythm with linear Western melody, and lusty negro attitudes with cute white-kid smiles.

Contemporary musicians never spoke highly of the Beatles, and for good reason. They could never figure out why the Beatles' songs should be regarded more highly than their own. They knew that the Beatles were simply lucky to become a folk phenomenon (thanks to "Beatlemania", which had nothing to do with their musical merits). That phenomenon kept alive interest in their (mediocre) musical endeavours to this day. Nothing else grants the Beatles more attention than, say, the Kinks or the Rolling Stones. There was nothing intrinsically better in the Beatles' music. Ray Davies of the Kinks was certainly a far better songwriter than Lennon & McCartney. The Stones were certainly much more skilled musicians than the 'Fab Four'. And Pete Townshend was a far more accomplished composer, capable of entire operas such as "Tommy" and "Quadrophenia"; not to mention the far greater British musicians who followed them in subsequent decades or the US musicians themselves who initially spearheaded what the Beatles merely later repackaged to the masses.

The Beatles sold a lot of records not because they were the greatest musicians but simply because their music was easy to sell to the masses: it had no difficult content, it had no technical innovations, it had no creative depth. They wrote a bunch of catchy 3-minute ditties and they were photogenic. If somebody had not invented "Beatlemania" in 1963, you would not have wasted five minutes of your time reading these pages about such a trivial band.
[/quote]

http://www.scaruffi.com/vol1/beatles.html
2017-11-08, 5:31 PM #2
I feel like I should add that from what I've read, this Scaruffi fellow is somewhat the pretentious joker. In addition to music, he has all sorts of outrageous but thought provoking opinions of the sort you imagine that no right minded person would reach, but nevertheless tug the mind in interesting directions (e.g., cannibalism, statutory rape, and so on).
2017-11-09, 7:00 AM #3
Dunno, but the first thing I noticed was that he first blamed critics for going to the bestsellers and then he said that the Beatles actualy weren't bestsellers.

And I'd actually say that the Beatles weren't that influential for rock music, but rather for pop music.
Sorry for the lousy German
2017-11-09, 1:41 PM #4
Originally posted by Impi:
And I'd actually say that the Beatles weren't that influential for rock music, but rather for pop music.


Oh, that puts it in context. I heard that the reviewer is basically obsessed with progressive rock (and jazz), so he probably just doesn't understand pop very well.
2017-11-09, 2:12 PM #5
Someone who thinks that "they weren't good musicians" is a deep cut criticism of a rock band doesn't understand rock music very well. I don't think you can have a serious conversation about the true cultural significance of the Beatles by thinking their "musical merits" can be thought about in separation from their popularity and Beatlemania.

I mean, what would that even mean to criticize their "musical merits"? You'd complain about George's solo in While My Guitar Gently Weeps? Or argue that John doesn't have a good singing voice?
former entrepreneur
2017-11-09, 2:19 PM #6
OK, I agree this is pretty silly.

Originally posted by Eversor:
Someone who thinks that "they weren't good musicians" is a deep cut criticism of a rock band doesn't understand rock music very well. I don't think you can have a serious conversation about the true cultural significance of the Beatles by thinking their "musical merits" can be thought about in separation from their popularity and Beatlemania.

I mean, what would that even mean to criticize their "musical merits"? You'd complain about George's solo in While My Guitar Gently Weeps? Or argue that John doesn't have a good singing voice?



Probably has something to do with the reviewers lack of appreciation for pop. He seems to think that all music is like classical and can be evaluated on something objective or technical.
2017-11-09, 2:26 PM #7
To be fair, I really don't think John had a very good singing voice. He was good at singing though, which is totally different.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2017-11-09, 2:33 PM #8
Since we're on the topic of spurious Beatle-bashing, here's a humorously dated savaging of the Beatles by somebody-not-at-all-in-a-position-to-be-biased:

[quote=Disc and Music Echo Magazine]
BEATLES and Brian Epstein were so delighted with "Eleanor Rigby" and "Yellow Submarine", two of the tracks on the new "Revolver" LP out next Friday (August 5), that they're also being issued as a single for the same date.

But if that celebrated songwriter Ray Davies is a reliable judge, the Beatles have made a big mistake. Ray thinks Miss Rigby was definitely dedicated to John and Paul's music teacher back in primary school; while "Submarine" should sink into a dustbin. "It's a load of rubbish, really", remarks Ray.

Disc and Music Echo decided to turn over the task of reviewing the "Revolver" album to Ray - and the Kink certainly spoke his mind.

Here's the album, track by track, with Ray's inter-round summaries:
[/quote]
[quote=Ray Davies]
Side One: "Taxman" (by George)--lead voice, George: "It sounds like a cross between the Who and Batman. It's a bit limited, but the Beatles get over this by the sexy double-tracking. It's surprising how sexy double-tracking makes a voice sound."

"Eleanor Rigby" (by John and Paul)--lead Paul: "I bought a Haydn LP the other day and this sounds just like it. It's all sort of quartet stuff and it sounds like they're out to please music teachers in primary schools. I can imagine John saying: 'I'm going to write this for my old schoolmistress'. Still it's very commercial."

"I'm Only Sleeping" (by John and Paul)--lead John: "It's a most beautiful song, much prettier than 'Eleanor Rigby'. A jolly old thing, really, and definitely the best track on the album.

"Love You Too" (by George)--lead George: "George wrote this--he must have quite a big influence on the group now. This sort of song I was doing two years ago--now I'm doing what the Beatles were doing two years ago. It's not a bad song--it's well performed which is always true of a Beatles track."

"Here There and Everywhere" (by John and Paul)--lead Paul: "This proves that the Beatles have got good memories, because there are a lot of busy chords in it. It's nice--like one instrument with the voice and guitar merging. Third best track on the album."

"Yellow Submarine" (by John and Paul)--lead Ringo: "This is a load of rubbish, really. I take the mickey out of myself on the piano and play stuff like this. I think they know it's not that good."

"She Said She Said" (by John and Paul)--lead John: "This song is in to restore confidence in the old Beatles sound. That's all."

"Good Day Sunshine" (by John and Paul)--lead Paul: "This'll be a giant. It doesn't force itself on you, but it stands out like 'I'm Only Sleeping'. This is back to the real old Beatles. I just don't think the fans like the newer electronic stuff. The Beatles are supposed to be like the boy next door only better."

"And Your Bird Can Sing" (by John and Paul)--lead John: "Don't like this. The song's too predictable. It's not a Beatles song at all."

"For No One" (by John and Paul)--lead Paul: "This will get covered, but it won't be a hit. It's really better than 'Eleanor Rigby' and the French horn is a nice effect."

"Dr. Robert" (by John and Paul)--lead John: "It's good--there's a 12-bar beat and bits in it that are clever. Not my sort of thing, though."

"I Want To Tell You" (by George)--lead George: "This helps the LP through. It's not up to the Beatles standard."

"Got To Get You Into My Life" (by John and Paul)--lead Paul: "Jazz backing--and it just goes to prove that Britain's jazz musicians can't swing. Paul's singing better jazz than the musicians are playing which makes nonsense of people saying jazz and pop are very different. Paul sounds like Little Richard. Really, it's the most vintage Beatles track on the LP."

"Tomorrow Never Knows" (by John and Paul)--lead John: "Listen to all those crazy sounds! It'll be popular in discotheques. I can imagine they had George Martin tied to a totem pole when they did this!"
[/quote]
Quote:
So, after listening to each track three or four times, the Ray Davies verdict: "This is the first Beatles LP I've really listened to in it's entirety but I must say there are better songs on 'Rubber Soul'. Still, 'I'm Only Sleeping' is a standout, 'Good Day Sunshine is second best and I also like 'Here, There and Everywhere.' But I don't want to be harsh about the others. The balance and recording technique are as good as ever."
2017-11-09, 2:58 PM #9
[quote=Ray Davies]"Taxman" (by George)--lead voice, George: "It sounds like a cross between the Who and Batman. It's a bit limited, but the Beatles get over this by the sexy double-tracking. It's surprising how sexy double-tracking makes a voice sound."[/quote]

Oh yeah, how about triple tracking??

2017-11-09, 4:05 PM #10
Despite defending the Beatles above, the Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan are both acts from the 60s whose music I've appreciated more and which seems deeper as I get older. On the other hand, the Beatles seem only to be more two-dimensional.
former entrepreneur
2017-11-09, 4:40 PM #11
I know what you mean about Bob Dylan, and I've thus far only felt compelled to scratch the surface. When I was younger I just wrote him off as scratching his voice.

I read recently somebody's opinion that the Rolling Stones are worth more carefully listening to. In particular, Exile on Main St. Apparently hated by the critics at the time, but I'm told the record (I haven't listened, was never a Stones fan in the past beyond a couple hits) is really solid from beginning to end if you approach it the right way.

To that end, I saw that the books by Bill Janovitz, "Exile on Main St.", and "Rocks Off: 50 Tracks That Tell the Story of the Rolling Stones" are worth checking out as a guide.
2017-11-09, 4:44 PM #12
Originally posted by Eversor:
Someone who thinks that "they weren't good musicians" is a deep cut criticism of a rock band doesn't understand rock music very well. I don't think you can have a serious conversation about the true cultural significance of the Beatles by thinking their "musical merits" can be thought about in separation from their popularity and Beatlemania.

I mean, what would that even mean to criticize their "musical merits"? You'd complain about George's solo in While My Guitar Gently Weeps? Or argue that John doesn't have a good singing voice?


Also, just for the record, that solo was Eric Clapton's work. At any rate, it's one if my favorite songs of all time, much moreso than the Beatles other stuff, but that's probably simply the difference between rock and pop.
2017-11-09, 4:46 PM #13
They made pretty singular records that didn't really sound like anyone else I've ever heard (inc. the Kinks, etc). I don't know if that speaks to merit or not but it probably doesn't matter.
2017-11-09, 4:53 PM #14
IIRC Buddy Holly's band, the Crickets, was supposed to be the precursor to the Beatles formula for a band.

I agree about their sound being unique, though. I actually don't mind that they are as popular as they are, however amusing the thought that they are "overrated" is. At any rate, that a band as popular as the Beatles is going to be overrated is pretty much a given.
2017-11-09, 4:55 PM #15
I will confess, though: when I was younger, my sister was obsessed with the Beatles and played the same songs over and over, which sort of drove me bonkers.
2017-11-09, 5:19 PM #16
Maybe I'm weird but I've never had a strong opinion on the Beatles.
2017-11-09, 5:23 PM #17
Well neither do I, but you must have met someone at some point who did. In fact among certain musicians, they are put on such a pedestal that you'd think they invented modern pop. Which in a lot of ways they probably did, since apparently a bunch of bands have tried to copy them one way or another over the years.
2018-02-09, 3:11 PM #18
Originally posted by Reid:
Maybe I'm weird but I've never had a strong opinion on the Beatles.


So what's with jazz snobs like Scaruffi tearing into the Beatles?

[quote=Quincy Jones]
Interviewer: What were your first impressions of the Beatles?

That they were the worst musicians in the world. They were no-playing ************s. Paul was the worst bass player I ever heard. And Ringo? Don’t even talk about it. I remember once we were in the studio with George Martin, and Ringo had taken three hours for a four-bar thing he was trying to fix on a song. He couldn’t get it. We said, “Mate, why don’t you get some lager and lime, some shepherd’s pie, and take an hour-and-a-half and relax a little bit.” So he did, and we called Ronnie Verrell, a jazz drummer. Ronnie came in for 15 minutes and tore it up. Ringo comes back and says, “George, can you play it back for me one more time?” So George did, and Ringo says, “That didn’t sound so bad.” And I said, “Yeah, ************ because it ain’t you.” Great guy, though.
[/quote]

http://www.vulture.com/2018/02/quincy-jones-in-conversation.html
2018-02-10, 6:47 AM #19
They've essentially been absorbed into pop culture in a way that they've always been there in the background somewhere for the majority of people's lives and I refuse to believe anyone has a strong opinion on them unless they're about 70 and were around for them being a *thing*, or you're a total bore.

They're fine, and very much of their time.
nope.
2018-02-10, 7:58 AM #20
Dunno about The Beatles, but...
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2018-02-10, 11:46 AM #21
I think we'd pretty well established that the Beatles don't actually suck (heh), but I resurrected this thread `cause, damn does Quincy Jones have a strong opinion on this topic.

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