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ForumsDiscussion Forum → What economic theory is best?
What economic theory is best?
2023-07-18, 10:24 PM #1
And why is it Austrian School?
2023-07-18, 10:29 PM #2
Because the countries with the most economic growth are liberal democracies.
2023-07-18, 10:31 PM #3
Nice. Can't argue with facts.

I wonder how rich we'd all be without all the government regulation to strangle the economy? I'd probably own a golden lawn mower.
2023-07-18, 10:33 PM #4
God bless Finland

2023-07-18, 10:35 PM #5
Obi, I didn't know you had a sense of humor!
former entrepreneur
2023-07-18, 10:36 PM #6
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Because the countries with the most economic growth are liberal democracies.


two countries with mcdonalds have never gone to war
former entrepreneur
2023-07-18, 10:36 PM #7
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Nice. Can't argue with facts.

I wonder how rich we'd all be without all the government regulation to strangle the economy? I'd probably own a golden lawn mower.


Well, here's what wikipedia says about the economic impact of having democratic government: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy#Impact_on_economic_growth

Originally posted by Wikipedia article on Liberal democracy:
Recent academic studies have found that democratisation is beneficial for national growth. However, the effect of democratisation has not been studied as yet. The most common factors that determine whether a country's economy grows or not are the country's level of development and the educational level of its newly elected democratic leaders. As a result, there is no clear indication of how to determine which factors contribute to economic growth in a democratic country.[50]

However, there is disagreement regarding how much credit the democratic system can take for this growth. One observation is that democracy became widespread only after the Industrial Revolution and the introduction of capitalism. On the other hand, the Industrial Revolution started in England which was one of the most democratic nations for its time within its own borders, but this democracy was very limited and did not apply to the colonies which contributed significantly to the wealth.[51]

Several statistical studies support the theory that a higher degree of economic freedom, as measured with one of the several Indices of Economic Freedom which have been used in numerous studies,[52] increases economic growth and that this in turn increases general prosperity, reduces poverty and causes democratisation. This is a statistical tendency and there are individual exceptions like Mali, which is ranked as "Free" by Freedom House, but is a Least Developed Country, or Qatar, which has arguably the highest GDP per capita in the world, but has never been democratic. There are also other studies suggesting that more democracy increases economic freedom, although a few find no or even a small negative effect.[53][54][55][56][57][58]

Some argue that economic growth due to its empowerment of citizens will ensure a transition to democracy in countries such as Cuba. However, other dispute this and even if economic growth has caused democratisation in the past, it may not do so in the future. Dictators may now have learned how to have economic growth without this causing more political freedom.[59][60]

A high degree of oil or mineral exports is strongly associated with nondemocratic rule. This effect applies worldwide and not only to the Middle East. Dictators who have this form of wealth can spend more on their security apparatus and provide benefits which lessen public unrest. Also, such wealth is not followed by the social and cultural changes that may transform societies with ordinary economic growth.[61]

A 2006 meta-analysis found that democracy has no direct effect on economic growth. However, it has strong and significant indirect effects which contribute to growth. Democracy is associated with higher human capital accumulation, lower inflation, lower political instability and higher economic freedom. There is also some evidence that it is associated with larger governments and more restrictions on international trade.[62]

If leaving out East Asia, then during the last forty-five years poor democracies have grown their economies 50% more rapidly than nondemocracies. Poor democracies such as the Baltic countries, Botswana, Costa Rica, Ghana and Senegal have grown more rapidly than nondemocracies such as Angola, Syria, Uzbekistan and Zimbabwe.[6]

Of the eighty worst financial catastrophes during the last four decades, only five were in democracies. Similarly, poor democracies are half likely as nondemocracies to experience a 10 percent decline in GDP per capita over the course of a single year.[6]
2023-07-18, 10:41 PM #8
former entrepreneur
2023-07-18, 10:45 PM #9
George Clooney is everyone else coming into this thread
former entrepreneur
2023-07-18, 10:46 PM #10
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Well, here's what wikipedia says about the economic impact of having democratic government: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy#Impact_on_economic_growth


Lol. I love the epistemological commitment to empirical studies that produce some kind of statistical statement.
2023-07-18, 11:08 PM #11
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
And why is it Austrian School?


Austrian school is the best economic theory because I'm mortified by uncertainty. Even the neoclassical assumption of rationality isn't good enough; I insist upon living in a world where I can write a mathematical proof from first principles showing exactly how people will behave in every situation.
2023-07-18, 11:19 PM #12
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Austrian school is the best economic theory because I'm mortified by uncertainty. Even the neoclassical assumption of rationality isn't good enough; I insist upon living in a world where I can write a mathematical proof from first principles showing exactly how people will behave in every situation.


Game theory!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Morgenstern

2023-07-18, 11:22 PM #13
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Well, here's what wikipedia says about the economic impact of having democratic government: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy#Impact_on_economic_growth


this is an interesting point, but have you considered https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2012-04-03
2023-07-18, 11:24 PM #14
Felix! I remember that guy. Hopefully he is doing well.
2023-07-18, 11:25 PM #15
I wonder if he was the inspiration for Mr. Peanutbutter on Bojack Horseman
2023-07-18, 11:33 PM #16
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Game theory!


The Nash equilibrium strategy for the Ultimatum Game is to always accept whatever offer you're given, and yet behavioral economics experiments, and similar ones in psychology and the social sciences, have revealed humans and even some non-human primates are capable of impressive acts of spite.

I choose to believe these results are "inconclusive".
2023-07-18, 11:43 PM #17
Wait, are you saying that the real reason we survived MAD during the cold war is because we lucked out? :P
2023-07-18, 11:51 PM #18
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Wait, are you saying that the real reason we survived MAD during the cold war is because we lucked out? :P




edit: Yeah, the implicit threat behind MAD was never really "if you nuke me, i'll nuke you back". It was "if you don't let me do whatever I want, I'll end civilization", with all sides playing chicken over whether the others prefer their immediate goals or whether they prefer civilization. That's why the most terrifying nuclear countries aren't the most well-armed ones, it's the small pariah states, because they already don't see much value from the existence of a broader civilization. A country, especially one suffering under a plutocratic reign of terror, is morally capable of destroying civilization just out of spite.

If people were predictably rational, nuclear weapons would never be a threat under any circumstance: as bad as it can get, it's still better to be a slave speaking Russian than for all of humanity to end. You might as well not even have them.
2023-07-19, 12:02 AM #19
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
God bless Finland



"What economic theory", not "Which country"
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2023-07-19, 3:14 AM #20
*cracks knuckles*

The short version is some form of post-Keynesianism.

Let's understand how we got where we are today. In the primordial age of economics, trade was principally carried out via metallic currencies. This isn't because gold and silver are metaphysically superior money or anything like that. It's due to the properties of gold and silver. Even in ancient times, they had very good methods to test the purity of metallic coins. On top of that were cultural reasons. China doesn't have much natural silver, but had lots of desire for silver. Since China was the world's biggest trading partner since time immemorial, this meant every trader knew it had intrinsic value in global trade.

While large nations could verify the purity and standardize metals, small time traders couldn't. So at various times, different countries became trusted for the consistency of their coinage. Spanish dollars, Dutch guilders, Florentine florins, British pounds. The specifics don't matter, what matters is that when a country has more influence over trade when it controls the currency.

So why does this matter for national economies? Simple, in practice it's because people rarely traded actual metal coins. This will trigger gold bugs, but it's plain as day in the record going back to Roman times. People didn't really walk around with sacks of coins very often. In typical commerce, people would trade in IOUs for metals instead of the actual metal. It made sense to keep your metals with a trusted friend who could keep them safe, and simply give someone else a slip of paper that allowed them to take the gold out in your stead.

Bankers quickly figured out that they could have more IOU slips out in circulation than they had coins in their vaults. If they loaned their reserves out, they could make a small profit on it, and that is their payment for defending the deposits. Thus humanity invented fractional reserve banking, and we've been suffering the consequences ever since (just kidding, but only a little bit).

Fractional reserve banking is actually a good way to generate some growth. The bank can loan money to someone who has an idea to make some money, which is better than that money sitting under the mattress of the person who deposited it. This is great, and the economy will be better, so long as there is no run on the bank. With more IOU slips than reserves, if too many people request their metals, then the whole scheme collapses. It's a financial crisis.

I bring up fractional reserve banking and international trade because they are intimately related. When everything I've just said is accepted practice, then there is one economic policy idea that becomes very rational. Because you see, while e.g. most French people would be fine holding French slips and never taking out deposits from French banks, an English trader doesn't feel the same way. To an English guy with a boatload of coal in a French port, the French paper IOU is worthless. He can't use it to buy anything in Britain. He'll take them, but he'll run to the French bank as soon as possible and convert it into metals, which he can actually take back to England and have value. International trade tends to shift reserve currencies from one country to another.

If metals are constantly flowing out of a country, but never in, it weakens that country's entire banking system. Eventually economic activity will have to slow because banks can't keep lending against shrinking reserves. The economy itself will soon follow. What happens is that, since loans can't be taken from banks and since capital is relatively fixed, the only place for businesses to cut back is: workers. Workers bare the brunt. Layoffs, pay cuts, etc. Eventually, the economy will be so damaged and labor will be so much cheaper, that the country will have an easier time exporting stuff for cheap. Then the metal flows reverse and go back into the country, the banking system strengthens, and the economy grows rapidly again.

This is why when you see charts of inflation, they look like this:

[https://i.imgur.com/WhIpN46.png]

Those big blue and green areas prior to the 20th century aren't because countries were minting and buying back currency every few years, they were natural and extreme fluctuations in the banking system due to international trade. And it's very disruptive and terrible for the people living through it. And this was defended as 'good and natural' by the first wave of liberal economists. It was a major sticking point of 19th century liberal economists that they couldn't convince 'stupid laborers' that they should just accept pay cuts. The liberals believed the economy would reset faster, and the workers would do better overall, if they just accept less pay.

Living in this international trade scenario leads countries to one obvious policy outcome: you do *not* want a trade deficit. At all costs, you want to make sure that metal flows into your country and not out. If you do this successfully, it means less suffering for your people, it means fewer economic crises. It's a literal 'golden age' for your nation. But this is a policy idea known as 'mercantilism', and it's a 'beggary thy neighbor' policy. By ensuring metals only flow into a country, it means by definition there have to be other countries where metals are flowing out.

This means that international trade, banking, and now war all go together. You'll notice the currencies I listed above, Spain, Florence, Britain, and the Netherlands, all have something in common. They all were, in their heyday, military hegemons. Privateering of other nations was encouraged, and privateering of one's own merchant fleet was suppressed. Colonial nations were formed for the express purpose of limiting trade, and thus limiting gold flow, to rival nations. This also meant government budgets had to be kept in check, as outstanding debts were a way for countries to take big chunks out of each other's reserve piles.

And these struggles play a large part of nearly all modern European wars. The Napoleonic wars were fought in large part over whether France or Britain was going to be the trade hegemon of the continent. WWI was fought primarily because Germany was trying to elbow its way into long-established English and French colonial trade routes. WWII was very directly caused by a wave of protectionist policies implemented in the 1930s in response to the great depression. What really happened though is conditions got so bad for people, that politics the world over destabilized and we say a rise in the worst authoritarian governments the world has ever seen.

Enter Keynes, stage left. Keynes whet his teeth initially on managing some part of Britain's India colony, but he really got famous for his work for the British treasury in WWI. Keynes learned alot during this: one, how government can just 'make things happen' in the economy regardless of payments. Two, that beggar-thy-neighbor policies were the ultimate cause of that horrific war. And three, he learned himself how to do some very clever beggaring of other nations to keep the British balance sheet black during the war.

Keynes set out to solve these issues. Most of his major works were between WWI and WWII, where he tried to solve these issues. He lambasted liberal economists for their stupidity regarding worker wages (it's a simple game theory question.. even if the economy is overall smaller, surrendering your pay still gives you a smaller percentage slice of the GDP cake). He noted that governments can 'do first and pay later', because he witnessed how wartime economies produced more rapid and permanent growth than decades of liberal economies. And he sought to solve beggar-thy-neighbor policies, via a financial innovation he called the bancor.

His bancor proposal was honestly kind of genius, and it's a tragedy that that's not how Bretton Woods went. The idea was that, instead of metals being the reserve for international trade, that international trade should be carried out with an international fiat currency. This currency couldn't be printed by just one country (sorry, both Germany and the US, you failed to live up to Keynes's ideal). Instead, there would be a body of nation states that had to vote to approve printing to address banking crises, and nation states who tried to beggar their neighbors via protectionism could be punished via the same institution. On the other side of this, international finance would be strictly constrained via capital controls. For the most part, if an American made a dollar anywhere in the world, in Keynes's world they would have to spend or invest that dollar somewhere in America.

Post WWII, the allied nations began organizing a system at Bretton Woods. The DNA of Keynes's plan is all there. This is where the World Bank and the IMF were founded, to serve as reserve currency holders that could support developing nations. However, there was one key part that was left out. And that was the bancor, the fiat currency that was supposed to take the role of metals. Instead, US-printed dollars were to fulfill that role, backed by gold. It's important to note that by the end of WWII, the US controlled an extreme amount of the world's gold reserves, as basically every country was either defeated by the US or paid all of its gold to the US to support its war effort. Basically, WWII turned the US dollar into the indisputed world currency. No other currency in history has ever been as complete and dominant in world trade as mid-late 20th century American dollars. Not even metals.

And this is what led to the post-WWII economic miracle. People in the US, even the lower and middle classes, were so obscenely wealthy post WWII. That was that the US was the center of the most valuable currency ever in world history, that currency couldn't easily go to other countries, and so it had to be spent investing in the US. This gave American workers very strong negotiating power, which is why unions were so strong and why labor was paid so much. Trade was free, though, this isn't a protectionist policy with tariffs. It was a policy to contain finance only, not trade, so nations could all build their own competitive industries and ultimately employ more of the populaces with higher wages and keep conditions far more equal.

Come the 1970s, and this system runs into problems. For one, France primarily but a few countries want to end dollar hegemony, so they try to return paper dollars for gold reserves and start another gold-backed currency. Nixon, not wanting to defend its stockpile of nearly all the world's gold, decided it was easier to just not pay out the gold for dollars anymore, and since 1971 dollars are the world reserve currency without any metals at all involved. The world achieved a true fiat reserve currency, but instead of having it controlled by a democratic union of nations, it is instead controlled solely by one, which subjects the rest of the world to its crazy antics.

So what else happened in the 1970s was necromancy of the corpse of liberalism. Because American labor was paid so highly, it became increasingly difficult for American companies to sustain productivity. It took more expensive and complex investments to cancel out the increases in labor costs and stay profitable. Companies started losing money, but unions were still all-powerful. So, through a series of policy choices completely void of any kind of democracy, capital controls were lifted. This meant that people who earned dollars in America no longer had to pay American workers

And why would you? American workers are being paid in dollars, which are practically gold in the post-1971 world, while the rest of the world gladly accepts scraps of **** paper that are worth much less than the extremely valuable reserve currency dollars. Of course, this transition didn't happen overnight, but 50 years in the effects are clear. American labor is increasingly unwanted and companies do their best to avoid paying gold for labor instead of worthless **** currencies.

This situation is irreversible. The US is stuck in a bind, it cannot give up reserve currency status as it is the 'exorbitant privilege', it grants the US license to do almost anything it wants. However, this same status makes it extremely hard to keep the economy working, because those dollars want to rush out of the US like fresh water to salt.

China is the country doing the most to fight the US dollar. The renminbi is pegged to the dollar, meaning it's permanently trading lower than it should for dollars. In other words, Chinese labor is artifically made cheaper to any country that deals heavily in dollars. This comes at the expense of Chinese workers, who have far less they can spend their money on, but strategically their strategy of beggaring the US financial system is working. The problem is, just like modern European fighting perpetual wars over trade deficits, this is tending the world towards war. Russia claims it's fighting Ukraine over NATO membership, but anyone who knows their history knows that Russia wanted to keep Ukraine relatively integrated economically (look up the Commonwealth of Independent States), but Ukraine drifted towards the EU and eventually began to deny the legitimacy of the CIS. Russia wants to beggar its neighbor, all of the talk about LGBT NATO instructors is just a bull**** cover.

And as anyone can see, the world has a corresponding rise in extremism, populism, and fascist-adjacent ideologies that threaten to drag the world into WWIII.

The solution? Just do everything Keynes said. End US dollar hegemony, recharter the world bank, create the bancor, and reimplement capital controls. Countries like Germany could be properly punished for their bad behavior, inequality would be sharply reduced, the US would not be able to inflict itself on other countries so easily but would still be a powerful hegemon.

The problem is, the people who profit off this system most have most of the power in our societies and would rather ride the atomic bomb into hell than make changes that don't immediately benefit them. So unless people start getting real politically active and start really taking down and transforming governments, we're on track to get a WWIII.
2023-07-19, 3:33 AM #21
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
And why is it Austrian School?


Frankly, the more you learn about political economy, the more you realize these 'schools' are meaningless lines in the sand. It's like saying 'what school of addition' do you believe in, either they're talking about ideas that have merit or ideas that don't. When it comes to liberal economists of the 20th century though, Keynes is the one most worth paying attention to. Note that that's not necessarily a claim that he's always right, but more that you'll learn alot more reading about him than you will ever reading about von Mises or Hayek.
2023-07-19, 3:45 AM #22
Originally posted by Reid:
*cracks knuckles*

The short version is some form of post-Keynesianism.

Let's understand how we got where we are today. In the primordial age of economics, trade was principally carried out via metallic currencies. This isn't because gold and silver are metaphysically superior money or anything like that. It's due to the properties of gold and silver. Even in ancient times, they had very good methods to test the purity of metallic coins. On top of that were cultural reasons. China doesn't have much natural silver, but had lots of desire for silver. Since China was the world's biggest trading partner since time immemorial, this meant every trader knew it had intrinsic value in global trade.

While large nations could verify the purity and standardize metals, small time traders couldn't. So at various times, different countries became trusted for the consistency of their coinage. Spanish dollars, Dutch guilders, Florentine florins, British pounds. The specifics don't matter, what matters is that when a country has more influence over trade when it controls the currency.

So why does this matter for national economies? Simple, in practice it's because people rarely traded actual metal coins. This will trigger gold bugs, but it's plain as day in the record going back to Roman times. People didn't really walk around with sacks of coins very often. In typical commerce, people would trade in IOUs for metals instead of the actual metal. It made sense to keep your metals with a trusted friend who could keep them safe, and simply give someone else a slip of paper that allowed them to take the gold out in your stead.

Bankers quickly figured out that they could have more IOU slips out in circulation than they had coins in their vaults. If they loaned their reserves out, they could make a small profit on it, and that is their payment for defending the deposits. Thus humanity invented fractional reserve banking, and we've been suffering the consequences ever since (just kidding, but only a little bit).

Fractional reserve banking is actually a good way to generate some growth. The bank can loan money to someone who has an idea to make some money, which is better than that money sitting under the mattress of the person who deposited it. This is great, and the economy will be better, so long as there is no run on the bank. With more IOU slips than reserves, if too many people request their metals, then the whole scheme collapses. It's a financial crisis.

I bring up fractional reserve banking and international trade because they are intimately related. When everything I've just said is accepted practice, then there is one economic policy idea that becomes very rational. Because you see, while e.g. most French people would be fine holding French slips and never taking out deposits from French banks, an English trader doesn't feel the same way. To an English guy with a boatload of coal in a French port, the French paper IOU is worthless. He can't use it to buy anything in Britain. He'll take them, but he'll run to the French bank as soon as possible and convert it into metals, which he can actually take back to England and have value. International trade tends to shift reserve currencies from one country to another.

If metals are constantly flowing out of a country, but never in, it weakens that country's entire banking system. Eventually economic activity will have to slow because banks can't keep lending against shrinking reserves. The economy itself will soon follow. What happens is that, since loans can't be taken from banks and since capital is relatively fixed, the only place for businesses to cut back is: workers. Workers bare the brunt. Layoffs, pay cuts, etc. Eventually, the economy will be so damaged and labor will be so much cheaper, that the country will have an easier time exporting stuff for cheap. Then the metal flows reverse and go back into the country, the banking system strengthens, and the economy grows rapidly again.

This is why when you see charts of inflation, they look like this:

[https://i.imgur.com/WhIpN46.png]

Those big blue and green areas prior to the 20th century aren't because countries were minting and buying back currency every few years, they were natural and extreme fluctuations in the banking system due to international trade. And it's very disruptive and terrible for the people living through it. And this was defended as 'good and natural' by the first wave of liberal economists. It was a major sticking point of 19th century liberal economists that they couldn't convince 'stupid laborers' that they should just accept pay cuts. The liberals believed the economy would reset faster, and the workers would do better overall, if they just accept less pay.

Living in this international trade scenario leads countries to one obvious policy outcome: you do *not* want a trade deficit. At all costs, you want to make sure that metal flows into your country and not out. If you do this successfully, it means less suffering for your people, it means fewer economic crises. It's a literal 'golden age' for your nation. But this is a policy idea known as 'mercantilism', and it's a 'beggary thy neighbor' policy. By ensuring metals only flow into a country, it means by definition there have to be other countries where metals are flowing out.

This means that international trade, banking, and now war all go together. You'll notice the currencies I listed above, Spain, Florence, Britain, and the Netherlands, all have something in common. They all were, in their heyday, military hegemons. Privateering of other nations was encouraged, and privateering of one's own merchant fleet was suppressed. Colonial nations were formed for the express purpose of limiting trade, and thus limiting gold flow, to rival nations. This also meant government budgets had to be kept in check, as outstanding debts were a way for countries to take big chunks out of each other's reserve piles.

And these struggles play a large part of nearly all modern European wars. The Napoleonic wars were fought in large part over whether France or Britain was going to be the trade hegemon of the continent. WWI was fought primarily because Germany was trying to elbow its way into long-established English and French colonial trade routes. WWII was very directly caused by a wave of protectionist policies implemented in the 1930s in response to the great depression. What really happened though is conditions got so bad for people, that politics the world over destabilized and we say a rise in the worst authoritarian governments the world has ever seen.

Enter Keynes, stage left. Keynes whet his teeth initially on managing some part of Britain's India colony, but he really got famous for his work for the British treasury in WWI. Keynes learned alot during this: one, how government can just 'make things happen' in the economy regardless of payments. Two, that beggar-thy-neighbor policies were the ultimate cause of that horrific war. And three, he learned himself how to do some very clever beggaring of other nations to keep the British balance sheet black during the war.

Keynes set out to solve these issues. Most of his major works were between WWI and WWII, where he tried to solve these issues. He lambasted liberal economists for their stupidity regarding worker wages (it's a simple game theory question.. even if the economy is overall smaller, surrendering your pay still gives you a smaller percentage slice of the GDP cake). He noted that governments can 'do first and pay later', because he witnessed how wartime economies produced more rapid and permanent growth than decades of liberal economies. And he sought to solve beggar-thy-neighbor policies, via a financial innovation he called the bancor.

His bancor proposal was honestly kind of genius, and it's a tragedy that that's not how Bretton Woods went. The idea was that, instead of metals being the reserve for international trade, that international trade should be carried out with an international fiat currency. This currency couldn't be printed by just one country (sorry, both Germany and the US, you failed to live up to Keynes's ideal). Instead, there would be a body of nation states that had to vote to approve printing to address banking crises, and nation states who tried to beggar their neighbors via protectionism could be punished via the same institution. On the other side of this, international finance would be strictly constrained via capital controls. For the most part, if an American made a dollar anywhere in the world, in Keynes's world they would have to spend or invest that dollar somewhere in America.

Post WWII, the allied nations began organizing a system at Bretton Woods. The DNA of Keynes's plan is all there. This is where the World Bank and the IMF were founded, to serve as reserve currency holders that could support developing nations. However, there was one key part that was left out. And that was the bancor, the fiat currency that was supposed to take the role of metals. Instead, US-printed dollars were to fulfill that role, backed by gold. It's important to note that by the end of WWII, the US controlled an extreme amount of the world's gold reserves, as basically every country was either defeated by the US or paid all of its gold to the US to support its war effort. Basically, WWII turned the US dollar into the indisputed world currency. No other currency in history has ever been as complete and dominant in world trade as mid-late 20th century American dollars. Not even metals.

And this is what led to the post-WWII economic miracle. People in the US, even the lower and middle classes, were so obscenely wealthy post WWII. That was that the US was the center of the most valuable currency ever in world history, that currency couldn't easily go to other countries, and so it had to be spent investing in the US. This gave American workers very strong negotiating power, which is why unions were so strong and why labor was paid so much. Trade was free, though, this isn't a protectionist policy with tariffs. It was a policy to contain finance only, not trade, so nations could all build their own competitive industries and ultimately employ more of the populaces with higher wages and keep conditions far more equal.

Come the 1970s, and this system runs into problems. For one, France primarily but a few countries want to end dollar hegemony, so they try to return paper dollars for gold reserves and start another gold-backed currency. Nixon, not wanting to defend its stockpile of nearly all the world's gold, decided it was easier to just not pay out the gold for dollars anymore, and since 1971 dollars are the world reserve currency without any metals at all involved. The world achieved a true fiat reserve currency, but instead of having it controlled by a democratic union of nations, it is instead controlled solely by one, which subjects the rest of the world to its crazy antics.

So what else happened in the 1970s was necromancy of the corpse of liberalism. Because American labor was paid so highly, it became increasingly difficult for American companies to sustain productivity. It took more expensive and complex investments to cancel out the increases in labor costs and stay profitable. Companies started losing money, but unions were still all-powerful. So, through a series of policy choices completely void of any kind of democracy, capital controls were lifted. This meant that people who earned dollars in America no longer had to pay American workers

And why would you? American workers are being paid in dollars, which are practically gold in the post-1971 world, while the rest of the world gladly accepts scraps of **** paper that are worth much less than the extremely valuable reserve currency dollars. Of course, this transition didn't happen overnight, but 50 years in the effects are clear. American labor is increasingly unwanted and companies do their best to avoid paying gold for labor instead of worthless **** currencies.

This situation is irreversible. The US is stuck in a bind, it cannot give up reserve currency status as it is the 'exorbitant privilege', it grants the US license to do almost anything it wants. However, this same status makes it extremely hard to keep the economy working, because those dollars want to rush out of the US like fresh water to salt.

China is the country doing the most to fight the US dollar. The renminbi is pegged to the dollar, meaning it's permanently trading lower than it should for dollars. In other words, Chinese labor is artifically made cheaper to any country that deals heavily in dollars. This comes at the expense of Chinese workers, who have far less they can spend their money on, but strategically their strategy of beggaring the US financial system is working. The problem is, just like modern European fighting perpetual wars over trade deficits, this is tending the world towards war. Russia claims it's fighting Ukraine over NATO membership, but anyone who knows their history knows that Russia wanted to keep Ukraine relatively integrated economically (look up the Commonwealth of Independent States), but Ukraine drifted towards the EU and eventually began to deny the legitimacy of the CIS. Russia wants to beggar its neighbor, all of the talk about LGBT NATO instructors is just a bull**** cover.

And as anyone can see, the world has a corresponding rise in extremism, populism, and fascist-adjacent ideologies that threaten to drag the world into WWIII.

The solution? Just do everything Keynes said. End US dollar hegemony, recharter the world bank, create the bancor, and reimplement capital controls. Countries like Germany could be properly punished for their bad behavior, inequality would be sharply reduced, the US would not be able to inflict itself on other countries so easily but would still be a powerful hegemon.

The problem is, the people who profit off this system most have most of the power in our societies and would rather ride the atomic bomb into hell than make changes that don't immediately benefit them. So unless people start getting real politically active and start really taking down and transforming governments, we're on track to get a WWIII.


hmm yes, that's all very interesting, but have you considered a non-refundable tax incentive to not start world war 3?
2023-07-19, 5:33 AM #23
Real posting in response to the Keynes stuff:

That's all factually accurate, but kind of glosses over the fact that trade outflows have a monetary effect on national economies, not a real one.

Trade's important, but it's still a relatively small part of national economies to have such an outsize influence on investment. Sum of import and export, it's about 20% of GDP for the EU, 25% for the US, 35% for China - which is treated as an historically extreme example of a trade-dependent nation. That's trade as a sector. China's secular trade balance hangs out around 3% of GDP, which is roughly where the US was during its manufacturing height from the 1870s through 1970s. For any economy, the vast majority of domestic production goes to domestic consumption, and the vast majority of trade is the boring "gains of trade" kind of trade, where specialization is a choice, not imagined enormous trade surpluses that you can use to deliberately suck all of the productivity out of your trading partners.

The real story here is that credit markets are awful at coordinating investment. They don't even do this job on purpose; it's entirely an accident of banks trying to monetize their liabilities. When someone pulls gold out of your economy, that's all they're doing; they aren't taking your farms, or your steel mills, or your tube sock factories. They're taking away "motivation". You can try Bretton Woods 2.0 to stop outflows of "motivation", and it might even work - but it doesn't really address the fact that our mechanism for allocating capital is mid AF and can similarly give up for all sorts of reasons besides dwindling reserves, like a stagflation-style capital strike. As you pointed out, even Keynes identified that war economies are capable of doing extraordinary investment despite being, on paper, "broke". I would rather investigate some of these other models for capital allocation before giving up and making it illegal to mail away paper because it makes bankers confused.

China's success isn't because they're a currency manipulator. Their wages aren't even that low; assembly workers in Shenzhen make around $20k USD a year. The real reason China succeeded is because they used credit quotas to force investment into their manufacturing supply chains. And they stole that idea from the Showa war economy, which in a later iteration also brought about the Japanese economic miracle of the 1970s and 80s.
2023-07-19, 6:11 AM #24
madoguchi shidoes what bretton woodn't.
2023-07-19, 8:18 AM #25
Originally posted by Reid:
*cracks knuckles*

The short version is some form of post-Keynesianism.

Let's understand how we got where we are today. In the primordial age of economics, trade was principally carried out via metallic currencies. This isn't because gold and silver are metaphysically superior money or anything like that. It's due to the properties of gold and silver. Even in ancient times, they had very good methods to test the purity of metallic coins. On top of that were cultural reasons. China doesn't have much natural silver, but had lots of desire for silver. Since China was the world's biggest trading partner since time immemorial, this meant every trader knew it had intrinsic value in global trade.

While large nations could verify the purity and standardize metals, small time traders couldn't. So at various times, different countries became trusted for the consistency of their coinage. Spanish dollars, Dutch guilders, Florentine florins, British pounds. The specifics don't matter, what matters is that when a country has more influence over trade when it controls the currency.

So why does this matter for national economies? Simple, in practice it's because people rarely traded actual metal coins. This will trigger gold bugs, but it's plain as day in the record going back to Roman times. People didn't really walk around with sacks of coins very often. In typical commerce, people would trade in IOUs for metals instead of the actual metal. It made sense to keep your metals with a trusted friend who could keep them safe, and simply give someone else a slip of paper that allowed them to take the gold out in your stead.

Bankers quickly figured out that they could have more IOU slips out in circulation than they had coins in their vaults. If they loaned their reserves out, they could make a small profit on it, and that is their payment for defending the deposits. Thus humanity invented fractional reserve banking, and we've been suffering the consequences ever since (just kidding, but only a little bit).

Fractional reserve banking is actually a good way to generate some growth. The bank can loan money to someone who has an idea to make some money, which is better than that money sitting under the mattress of the person who deposited it. This is great, and the economy will be better, so long as there is no run on the bank. With more IOU slips than reserves, if too many people request their metals, then the whole scheme collapses. It's a financial crisis.

I bring up fractional reserve banking and international trade because they are intimately related. When everything I've just said is accepted practice, then there is one economic policy idea that becomes very rational. Because you see, while e.g. most French people would be fine holding French slips and never taking out deposits from French banks, an English trader doesn't feel the same way. To an English guy with a boatload of coal in a French port, the French paper IOU is worthless. He can't use it to buy anything in Britain. He'll take them, but he'll run to the French bank as soon as possible and convert it into metals, which he can actually take back to England and have value. International trade tends to shift reserve currencies from one country to another.

If metals are constantly flowing out of a country, but never in, it weakens that country's entire banking system. Eventually economic activity will have to slow because banks can't keep lending against shrinking reserves. The economy itself will soon follow. What happens is that, since loans can't be taken from banks and since capital is relatively fixed, the only place for businesses to cut back is: workers. Workers bare the brunt. Layoffs, pay cuts, etc. Eventually, the economy will be so damaged and labor will be so much cheaper, that the country will have an easier time exporting stuff for cheap. Then the metal flows reverse and go back into the country, the banking system strengthens, and the economy grows rapidly again.

This is why when you see charts of inflation, they look like this:

[https://i.imgur.com/WhIpN46.png]

Those big blue and green areas prior to the 20th century aren't because countries were minting and buying back currency every few years, they were natural and extreme fluctuations in the banking system due to international trade. And it's very disruptive and terrible for the people living through it. And this was defended as 'good and natural' by the first wave of liberal economists. It was a major sticking point of 19th century liberal economists that they couldn't convince 'stupid laborers' that they should just accept pay cuts. The liberals believed the economy would reset faster, and the workers would do better overall, if they just accept less pay.

Living in this international trade scenario leads countries to one obvious policy outcome: you do *not* want a trade deficit. At all costs, you want to make sure that metal flows into your country and not out. If you do this successfully, it means less suffering for your people, it means fewer economic crises. It's a literal 'golden age' for your nation. But this is a policy idea known as 'mercantilism', and it's a 'beggary thy neighbor' policy. By ensuring metals only flow into a country, it means by definition there have to be other countries where metals are flowing out.

This means that international trade, banking, and now war all go together. You'll notice the currencies I listed above, Spain, Florence, Britain, and the Netherlands, all have something in common. They all were, in their heyday, military hegemons. Privateering of other nations was encouraged, and privateering of one's own merchant fleet was suppressed. Colonial nations were formed for the express purpose of limiting trade, and thus limiting gold flow, to rival nations. This also meant government budgets had to be kept in check, as outstanding debts were a way for countries to take big chunks out of each other's reserve piles.

And these struggles play a large part of nearly all modern European wars. The Napoleonic wars were fought in large part over whether France or Britain was going to be the trade hegemon of the continent. WWI was fought primarily because Germany was trying to elbow its way into long-established English and French colonial trade routes. WWII was very directly caused by a wave of protectionist policies implemented in the 1930s in response to the great depression. What really happened though is conditions got so bad for people, that politics the world over destabilized and we say a rise in the worst authoritarian governments the world has ever seen.

Enter Keynes, stage left. Keynes whet his teeth initially on managing some part of Britain's India colony, but he really got famous for his work for the British treasury in WWI. Keynes learned alot during this: one, how government can just 'make things happen' in the economy regardless of payments. Two, that beggar-thy-neighbor policies were the ultimate cause of that horrific war. And three, he learned himself how to do some very clever beggaring of other nations to keep the British balance sheet black during the war.

Keynes set out to solve these issues. Most of his major works were between WWI and WWII, where he tried to solve these issues. He lambasted liberal economists for their stupidity regarding worker wages (it's a simple game theory question.. even if the economy is overall smaller, surrendering your pay still gives you a smaller percentage slice of the GDP cake). He noted that governments can 'do first and pay later', because he witnessed how wartime economies produced more rapid and permanent growth than decades of liberal economies. And he sought to solve beggar-thy-neighbor policies, via a financial innovation he called the bancor.

His bancor proposal was honestly kind of genius, and it's a tragedy that that's not how Bretton Woods went. The idea was that, instead of metals being the reserve for international trade, that international trade should be carried out with an international fiat currency. This currency couldn't be printed by just one country (sorry, both Germany and the US, you failed to live up to Keynes's ideal). Instead, there would be a body of nation states that had to vote to approve printing to address banking crises, and nation states who tried to beggar their neighbors via protectionism could be punished via the same institution. On the other side of this, international finance would be strictly constrained via capital controls. For the most part, if an American made a dollar anywhere in the world, in Keynes's world they would have to spend or invest that dollar somewhere in America.

Post WWII, the allied nations began organizing a system at Bretton Woods. The DNA of Keynes's plan is all there. This is where the World Bank and the IMF were founded, to serve as reserve currency holders that could support developing nations. However, there was one key part that was left out. And that was the bancor, the fiat currency that was supposed to take the role of metals. Instead, US-printed dollars were to fulfill that role, backed by gold. It's important to note that by the end of WWII, the US controlled an extreme amount of the world's gold reserves, as basically every country was either defeated by the US or paid all of its gold to the US to support its war effort. Basically, WWII turned the US dollar into the indisputed world currency. No other currency in history has ever been as complete and dominant in world trade as mid-late 20th century American dollars. Not even metals.

And this is what led to the post-WWII economic miracle. People in the US, even the lower and middle classes, were so obscenely wealthy post WWII. That was that the US was the center of the most valuable currency ever in world history, that currency couldn't easily go to other countries, and so it had to be spent investing in the US. This gave American workers very strong negotiating power, which is why unions were so strong and why labor was paid so much. Trade was free, though, this isn't a protectionist policy with tariffs. It was a policy to contain finance only, not trade, so nations could all build their own competitive industries and ultimately employ more of the populaces with higher wages and keep conditions far more equal.

Come the 1970s, and this system runs into problems. For one, France primarily but a few countries want to end dollar hegemony, so they try to return paper dollars for gold reserves and start another gold-backed currency. Nixon, not wanting to defend its stockpile of nearly all the world's gold, decided it was easier to just not pay out the gold for dollars anymore, and since 1971 dollars are the world reserve currency without any metals at all involved. The world achieved a true fiat reserve currency, but instead of having it controlled by a democratic union of nations, it is instead controlled solely by one, which subjects the rest of the world to its crazy antics.

So what else happened in the 1970s was necromancy of the corpse of liberalism. Because American labor was paid so highly, it became increasingly difficult for American companies to sustain productivity. It took more expensive and complex investments to cancel out the increases in labor costs and stay profitable. Companies started losing money, but unions were still all-powerful. So, through a series of policy choices completely void of any kind of democracy, capital controls were lifted. This meant that people who earned dollars in America no longer had to pay American workers

And why would you? American workers are being paid in dollars, which are practically gold in the post-1971 world, while the rest of the world gladly accepts scraps of **** paper that are worth much less than the extremely valuable reserve currency dollars. Of course, this transition didn't happen overnight, but 50 years in the effects are clear. American labor is increasingly unwanted and companies do their best to avoid paying gold for labor instead of worthless **** currencies.

This situation is irreversible. The US is stuck in a bind, it cannot give up reserve currency status as it is the 'exorbitant privilege', it grants the US license to do almost anything it wants. However, this same status makes it extremely hard to keep the economy working, because those dollars want to rush out of the US like fresh water to salt.

China is the country doing the most to fight the US dollar. The renminbi is pegged to the dollar, meaning it's permanently trading lower than it should for dollars. In other words, Chinese labor is artifically made cheaper to any country that deals heavily in dollars. This comes at the expense of Chinese workers, who have far less they can spend their money on, but strategically their strategy of beggaring the US financial system is working. The problem is, just like modern European fighting perpetual wars over trade deficits, this is tending the world towards war. Russia claims it's fighting Ukraine over NATO membership, but anyone who knows their history knows that Russia wanted to keep Ukraine relatively integrated economically (look up the Commonwealth of Independent States), but Ukraine drifted towards the EU and eventually began to deny the legitimacy of the CIS. Russia wants to beggar its neighbor, all of the talk about LGBT NATO instructors is just a bull**** cover.

And as anyone can see, the world has a corresponding rise in extremism, populism, and fascist-adjacent ideologies that threaten to drag the world into WWIII.

The solution? Just do everything Keynes said. End US dollar hegemony, recharter the world bank, create the bancor, and reimplement capital controls. Countries like Germany could be properly punished for their bad behavior, inequality would be sharply reduced, the US would not be able to inflict itself on other countries so easily but would still be a powerful hegemon.

The problem is, the people who profit off this system most have most of the power in our societies and would rather ride the atomic bomb into hell than make changes that don't immediately benefit them. So unless people start getting real politically active and start really taking down and transforming governments, we're on track to get a WWIII.


Yeah but that's just like your opinion, man.
former entrepreneur
2023-07-19, 8:36 AM #26
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Austrian school is the best economic theory because I'm mortified by uncertainty. Even the neoclassical assumption of rationality isn't good enough; I insist upon living in a world where I can write a mathematical proof from first principles showing exactly how people will behave in every situation.


Ideally, I'd just train an AI to do that for me. Proofs are effort-y.

Do you know GPT-4 passed the bar exam?
2023-07-19, 8:48 AM #27
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Do you know GPT-4 passed the bar exam?


Having the familiarity that I have with the bar exam, I find the fact that it scored so high on the LSAT to be more impressive, tbh.

The thing that makes the bar exam hard is that there's so much information to know, and you only have a limited amount of time to cram it all into your brain. That's the exact sort of thing that computers are better than humans at. A computer's not going to forget that the dying declarations exception to the hearsay rule is one of the exceptions that only applies if the declarant is unavailable, because since learning Evidence the computer also had to learn eleven other areas of law. But that's the exact reason that a human would struggle: there's an enormous amount of material to cover, and very little time to do it.

On the other hand, the LSAT is skills based rather than knowledge based, so the fact that the GPT-4 is scoring well on the LSAT suggests that it has something that more closely approximates reasoning ability (not that there's none of that on the bar).
former entrepreneur

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