I've recently decided that i don't want to be like most teenage guitarists who know a few babdly played riffs. I'm a musician, and it should show for more than just saxaphone. Thus I've started learning how to play music from standerd notation. I already knew how to read music, and i knew the notes on the fretboard, but I never was able to quickly apply it. Probably because most of the music notes are a few inches off of the staff, which is nuts for sax.
Anyway, most music nowadays is in this format:
Intro riff
Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Puny bridge
Chorus
In most cases I find this to be true. If it's metal they usually add a solo and stick another riff in the space between the chorus and a verse. I'm in a band. We play compositions that have tons of changes all throughout the music, if it were to be in the above format it would be something along the lines of :intro, interlude,verse,break,chorus,bridge, minute or two of constantly evolving and changing music,verse, completely different intro thing, solo, key change with something that reminds you of the chorus, ect.

Band and orcestra music is like this. The classical pieces are like this. Punk rock is far from it. I would like a mix of both. I understand that it is worlds easier to put lyrics to powerchords. But what if you had an intro, then singing, then progressing music, then lyrics, then more progressing music, and so on? The music would always still be in the same style. I dig "musical" music. Does anyone here know anything about composing music? I play electric guitar. I have close friends play bass, piano/keyboard, drums, and violin. And since we're all in band, we can read music and can additionally play trumpet, tenor sax, and tuba. This leads me to think of some sort of ska band.

Then I started listening to against me! And I was amazed by their powerful folk style of their...words? Songwriting?
So I would love to make somesort of classical, ska rock band with punk and folk influences. But how on earth does one go about learning how to compose and put together orcestra music? This is on a much smaller scale, maybe 5 instruments, but it still blows my mind. I can but together a simple song with chords and powerchords. I know scales through my ears but nothing helps very much. I'm sure there is something simple someone needs to tell me that will help make it click for me. So for all the stuff I'm just typed, what I'm basically trying to ask is this:
Any advice on making melodies?
Does anyone have any advice or lessons when it comes to writing/composing music?
Know any bands that accomplish this, so I can listen and try to find learn that way?

And because I've heard what sounds like I am looking for from their description, does anyone know about God Speed You Black Emperor?

And that should be about it. Thanks in advance.

Basically, just play around on various instruments until you have something you like. When I go to record (in my basement or at my church), I can spend hours a day just trying to figure out what I want. Unfortunately, I'm never skilled enough on guitar to actually play what I've got figured out, and end up being forced to change it or explode from getting pissed off with my lack of dexterity. I remember I once spent about 12 solid hours (maybe more) on keyboard trying to perfect what I had in mind. So be prepared to put *lots* of time into a composition, particularly if you're composing for multiple instruments.

That's what i was afraid of. It's like when I first learned to play by ear by guessing and checking. I wonder if that's how bach did it. He had perfect pitch though, didn't he? Ear training might help. Poey

Progressive metal my friend....

Truthfully though, I know what you're saying. Sometimes though - I just prefer songs that have the typical format. There's a reason they're so popular like that - its very easy listening.

Songs with tons of tempo changes alienates many users though, since it takes longer to absorb it. I like it both ways, sometimes simple, sometimes I like not knowing what to expect.

Still, decide what you want your user base to be. If you want to a wider range of people to like your music, standard format. More complex music will give you fans who actually appreciate you for what you're doing, but turn off those who listen to a song once to decide if they like it.

Oh, also on your comment on making melodies with orchestral music. Melody can be a very personal thing, there's not really a secret formula to discover an awesome melody. Just fool around and figure something out with different insturments.

The solo album I'm working on is actually a mixture of tradiational power metal elements, dark lyrics (you might say a little bit of goth, but not really), and orchestra type strings and instruments in the background, with multi-voice harmony choruses for singing.

As long as you're doing what you like, and not trying to copy another band - it should be good. Just practice with it! The more you learn what works and what doesn't, the better it'll be...

What you define is called structure. Sure, it's nice to bend the rules once in awhile, but just remember that these rules are there for a good reason. Typical rock follows the structure you described, and sometimes people bend that structure and it becomes something else. That doesn't mean it'll sound good though.

Music is stupid. All it is is frequencies that resonate well together. That is to say, harmonics of specific tones played in an arbitrary order at an arbitrary rhythm, usually one mimicking some unrelated natural process.

But Bach, Brandenburg Concertos...wow. Nevertheless, nothing is original and every one of those classical composers and painters basically ripped off some preceding style or master (usually their teacher/mentor). I won't even begin with literature...god.

And we all ripped off our parents' DNA, so we aren't original either.

Let's just all commit suicide in shame.

Your argument is not original Master Tonberry...

Neither is your name...

Nor is your style of typing...

Must be stupid...

I'm the same way. When I write songs I try to make them more than just the cliche verse-chorus-verse-chorus. Usually my songs are written in 2-3 parts, which pisses off my band and confuses the audience. I've written 3 songs like this (for a total of 7 parts) although I only have 2 songs recorded like this (for a total of 4 parts). I call them 'parts' but I think it would fit to call them movements.

I also know what you mean by finding it hard to mesh all the genres together. You'll find a way if you try hard enough.

Check this out. It features some interesting back story and free mp3s about Godspeed You Black Emperor!

Also, you might be interested in Don Caballero. They create really complicated rock songs with shifting time signatures and complex polyrhythms while still using traditional rock instrumentation.

I'm not nessicarily looking for time changes. I just want progressive stuff. More than the same riff and powerchords over and over.
I'm still looking for listenable music. Somethig that doesn't require meditation and study. A song that has catchy words, is about 4 - 4 1/2 minutes long, and has changing music when someone is not singing.
It doesn't have to be incredible complex. Just musical. Thanks for the ideas thus far.

Multipart Rock/Metal Songs:

Guns N' Roses - November Rain
Guns N' Roses - Patience
Meat Loaf - Paradise by the Dashboard Light
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Venice Queen
Evanescence - Eternal
Sonata Arctica - The Power of One

Write whatever you want to at first. don't give yourself any limits, but aim for a general genre. you'll see it shaping up the more you compose. then you can really nail what you want to do because you made it grow yourself. and that's the cool part!

But also, know how you wrote it. and understand the changes behind it. I can't stress how important it is to understand your own compositions and how and why you wrote these notes instead of others. it makes it so much easier to write afterwards, so long as you still rely on feeling and not entirely theory. because just theory makes everything so dull.

Theory shouldn't be your method of composing. Theory should merely be a tool to help you get your creative ideas on paper faster.

It's at times like these, where I'm quite happy to know I have perfect pitch... But sure I know the theory rubbish too. I usually find it difficult to write my ideas down, and play ALL my pieces by memory.