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ForumsMusic Discussion and Showcase → Punk Rock History
Punk Rock History
2005-04-07, 2:19 PM #1
THREE DECADES OF ANARCHY & CHAOS: PUNK ROCK PURITY*
By Liesse Gomez

In the early 1970s, disco music began to seep onto the airwaves, infecting the youth. Also at the same time, a musical protest sprang forth. Joseph Hyman, whom, along with three others would eventually adopt the surname of Ramone and form a rock group of the same name, is said to be the father of the musical movement so perfectly called punk rock; a movement that would span over two decades, and shape the music industry of today.
But the Ramones are not the most famous and well-known punk group in history. British groups, like the Clash and the Sex Pistols are. And reasonably so. It's been said that while the Ramones and several other New York groups, along with a British band called the Buzzcocks gave birth to punk, British groups like the Sex Pistols and the Bollocks, along with the New Jersey group known as the Misfits refined the image, and as an added bonus, the British band known as the Clash made punk popular, got it out of the clubs and smaller venues, and onto mainstream radio. These British groups turned punk into a second British Invasion.
So what is the so-called punk image? The Ramones all had long, unkempt hair, ripped jeans, and leather motorcycle jackets. These were popular staples of the punk rock groups; particularly ripped, torn, or otherwise well-worn clothes. Inspired after seeing a concert at the CBGB concert music hall in New York, John Ritchie (more commonly known as Sid Vicious) of the Sex Pistols would later perform in a filthy, torn up t- shirt and tight leather pants. Plaid clothing, although occasionally seen in the United States groups, wouldn't truly appear in punk apparel until the early 1990s grunge movement. Spikes, studs, and chains often accentuated the image. Hair dyed various, often loud, vibrant colours, and the hairstyle called simply the Mohawk ran rampant within the US. Boots, although more common within the blossoming heavy metal & hard rock scene, were occasionally thrown into this mixture, especially in the New York and Eastern US punk scene.
The music described as punk or rebellious was, in itself, always interesting. Groups often developed their very own unique sound. Joey Ramone (formerly Joseph Hyman) often wrote songs that depicted using various inhalants and other drugs (see: I Just Wanna Sniff Some Glue, or Carbona, Not Glue) and even how politics and those associated with it was a distressing thing (key example: My Brain Is Hanging Upside Down/Bonzo Goes To Bitburg). The Sex Pistols, fronted by a man with the alias of Johnny Rotten (real name: John Lydon), often lived up to their bad reputation and hard-core image; often going out of their way to insult the establishment. One of their most popular songs, God Save the Queen, was pulled from UK airwaves within its first two weeks of release, a record that has never truly been broken, as it verbally bashed and insulted the Queen Mother. Sometimes, a punk group was able to survive on only three chords; as long as they sounded good, and had a tough, seemingly unbreakable attitude? who cared if they could play? Joan Jett once sang that basically told the establishment that she didn't give a **** what they thought (see: Bad Reputation), and many punks held true with this statement.
By the 1980s, when disco finally lost the momentum it once had and finally died, punk also started to disappear. Heavy metal & the glamour rock hair bands dominated until the early 1990s, about late 1991, emerging full-swing in early 1992, to be exact. Punk would once again be reborn, with a slightly different look, but the same angry, rebellious tone in the rain-drenched concrete jungles of Seattle, Washington. Grunge music had been born. Groups like Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Mother Love Bone, Temple of the Dog, Jane's Addiction, The Pixies, and perhaps the most famous of all grunge bands, the ever-popular, forever-famous, and ever-tragic Nirvana, along with several others, took hold of the radio and dominated the airwaves for about two or three years. Alice In Chains managed to survive until the late 1990s, and Pearl Jam and Jane's Addiction, if somewhat obscure, are still alive. The Pixies have regrouped, started touring once more, and, if I'm not mistaken, are planning a new album. The dirty image of 1970s punk was maintained, and added to it was the flannel plaid shirt worn mostly by lumberjacks in British Columbia and hunters in Maine... oddly enough, it's been said that because Seattle is so bloody cold, the groups wore flannel because that was the least they could do in order to play with warm bodies. Long hair, and even more gallons of angst completed the look, and added to the sometimes hyper and occasionally depressing lyrics, this made the groups all the more popular.
As wonderful as it was, grunge was not meant to last long. On April 4th, 1994, Kurt Cobain, front man of Nirvana and perhaps the voice of a new generation was found dead in his home in Aberdeen, Washington, the result of an apparent suicide. Cobain had often said that he had never wanted his music to become extremely popular. That he hated sell-outs, and that he didn't care if Nirvana remained underground for as long as it existed. The overwhelming success of Nirvana, and his burgeoning popularity are said to be contributing factors to his death. Although a few of the remaining grunge bands lived on, Cobain's premature death was a hard hit, effecting even those not associated with grunge. The former drummer for Nirvana, Dave Grohl, would go on to form the Foo Fighters; and his grunge and Nirvana roots can still be heard in his lyrics.
From that point, punk crawled under a rock, seeming to die once more. The world was ready for a happier sound; a sound which punk and its anti- establishment message could not provide. The Ramones, whom had been around since 1974, disbanded in 1997 with the release of their final album, Adios, Amigos. Social Distortion, the Misfits, and the Dead Kennedys stepped aside gracefully to make room for the lighter sound of alternative rock; however, they continued to make albums. The early 1990s punk group from southern California, dubbed the Offspring, turned themselves into a rock group with their mainstream release of Smash in 1995 . They would be the first to also be dubbed sell-outs by their seemingly loyal fans. Soon to follow their footsteps would be Green Day, Garbage, and a few others who dreamed of making it big. The sell-outs were punk groups, who, usually after being discovered by some major record label and signing with the company, would abandon the independent, often smaller company that had raised them in the underground scene. Many bands that sold out ended up changing their once-unique sound; from something once considered hard core, to something much more like the market's popular music. Music which had been proven to sell big time. By 1995, punk music as it had been in the 1970s was, more or less, non- existent, and continuing to fade with every former punk band turning to an alternative sound in order to survive. Popular music, or pop; artists and faux bands like Britney Spears, and the various five-piece Boy Bands ruled the airwaves, and, like the disco groups before them, were like musical kudzu; choking the life out of anything that dared to prosper around it. But, unlike disco, pop is still around, and apparently will be for years to come. Which brings us up mostly to the present day.
Music has stayed like this for quite awhile. Battles of almost mythic proportions between pop, rap/R&B, and hard rock/heavy metal occurred frequently. Punk was still mostly forgotten. Metallica ended their annual Summer Sanitarium tour in 1996, the same year the grandfather of Metal, John (Ozzy) Osbourne, began his seeming blitzkrieg of heavy metal bands, the Ozzfest tour, which will be eight years strong this upcoming summer. Green Day, Garbage, and the Offspring, the supposed sell-outs were mainly on hiatus, busy writing material, and touring in promotion for the albums which were already in circulation. Green Day would release a new album, Nimrod, on which the immensely popular Good Riddance (Time of your Life) would be found, in 1997. The Offspring's popularity on mainstream radio would reach an ultimate climax in 1998 with their release of Americana, and its hit single, Pretty Fly (For a White Guy), but the other sell-out groups would fade into oblivion, to resurface in the early 21st century.
The years was now 1999. Metallica and most heavy metal groups had disappeared from nearly all radio stations to be replaced with Goth/industrial metal like Marilyn Manson & Rammstein & rap-rock crossovers like Limp Bizkit; the majority of the groups in the studio recording or writing new material. Pop was still going strong, but a new, vaguely familiar sound was beginning to appear in the Eastern United States. Was it possible that punk was, like the mythical phoenix, rising from the ashes of its defeat? From Pennsylvania came a resurgence and a reminder of the good old days when Sid Vicious was still alive, and Joey Ramone sang of hitch- hiking to Rockaway Beach. Anti-Flag, fronted by a man with the alias of Justin Sane brought back the faded punk decadence. In response, old groups the Dead Kennedys, Misfits, and Social Distortion returned to the studio, reconnected with their old roots, and once more began to pump out albums. Things seemed to be going well for punk. And then 1999 came to an end.
In 2000, many punk groups had resurfaced to join the new generation. Groups like Blink-182 and Sum 41 were originally considered punk, but in 2000, some East coast groups had the gall to fuse the two genre rivals, punk and pop, into one. Good Charlotte, New Found Glory, and Dashboard Confessional spawned the musical hybrid pop-punk, also called Emo, or emotional punk. It's no coincidence that these bands mainly attract only female fans; the only thing keeping them from being considered just another pop Boy Band is that they can actually play their own instruments. They sing of love, hurt, betrayal, and broken relationships. Blink-182 and Sum 41 are now considered Emo or pop-punk. And as such, are rejected by the authentic, old-school punk fans. MTV saw how popular the Emo scene was becoming, and decided to make it into the perfect market. They twisted the old punk image, and turned it into something quite disgusting to many of the old-school fans. It is now, thanks to MTV, hard to distinguish poseurs (that is, the Emo and pop-punk fan base) from the authentics, the fans of the old punk days.
In 2001 and 2002, the world of punk lost three of its most cherished punk royalty. Joey Ramone, who had been fighting against the devastating disease Lymphoma for almost a decade, died in April of 2001. The father of punk was now only a legend. In September of 2002, DeeDee Ramone, bassist of the Ramones, was found dead in his apartment at the age of fifty, from an apparent drug overdose. His death, unlike that of Joey, was never publicized on television. Later that year, on December 22nd, Joe Strummer, front man of the Clash, died. The news of his death was on nearly every news & music radio station, as well as television channels. Before the deaths of the vocalist & bassist, it was even speculated that the Ramones had been planning to get together for a Greatest Hits album. Devastated by the deaths of his former bandmates, Johnny Ramone proceeded to go through with this plan. In early 2003, a tribute album, We're A Happy Family: An All-Star Tribute To The Ramones was released; dedicated by Johnny to the memory of his two fallen comrades, with half of the profits made by the album going towards a Lymphoma Research Center in New York. A two-CD set Greatest Hits album, respectively entitled The Essential Clash was released by the remaining Clash members not too long after, dedicated to the memory of Joe Strummer. Johnny Ramone died just recently, on September 15th.
With the deaths of several punk and grunge monarchs, the threat of the ever-present musical kudzu that is pop, and the emergence of Emo, it's hard to see how punk has managed to hold on for the 30 years it has. Many musical styles are lucky to live even five or ten years. Punks are survivors. The Misfits and the living members of the Ramones, Clash, and Sex Pistols are remnants of a by-gone era. So when you see that guy that looks like he might be slightly crazy or disturbed, perhaps even dangerous? the guy with the neon green Mohawk, the leather jacket smothered with spikes, studs, and patches?. The guy with ripped, tight jeans, complete with combat boots? perhaps even wearing a Kinks or Misfits t-shirt and a sneer plastered permanently on his face? Ask yourself: Is this guy a product of MTV, or is he a time-traveler from the Berkeley, London, or Birmingham of 1976? Ask yourself this, and think hard on it.

* The author would like to mention that her opinions, however harsh they are, are only that: opinions. To take offense is ridiculous. Please do not chastise her for her opinion. Also, some information may be incorrect, in relation to album release dates and such. It is suggested that if one should find the author has made some mistake, please leave any/all corrections along with reviews. Thankee-sai very kindly.
2005-04-07, 2:20 PM #2
So what did you guys think of it?
I think its pretty true.
2005-04-07, 9:39 PM #3
Mostly liked it, aside from the Greenday bashing.

o.0
2005-04-07, 9:43 PM #4
Found a spelling mistake

Quote:
The years was now 1999.


I thought it was very interresting. My only complaint is that you keep a relatively objective and neutral tone throughout the article, until you mention pop-punk, and it suddenly starts sounding so biased.

You could either make it all biased, rant about how much 'old school' punk kicks *** and the new emo kids are just ripoffs blah blah blah, and turn it into a critique, OR keep it all objective (which I think makes for a more interresting article).

Also, you should put spaces between your paragraphs. This gets hard on the eyes!
The music industry is a cruel and shallow money trench where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.
2005-04-08, 8:21 AM #5
black flag
circle jerks
nofx
bad religion
stiff little fingers
rancid
bad brains

all important to the punk movement at their own time in their own way, not even mentioned by the article, it seems like half arsed coverage.
2005-04-08, 2:23 PM #6
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Stafford
black flag
circle jerks
nofx
bad religion
stiff little fingers
rancid
bad brains

all important to the punk movement at their own time in their own way, not even mentioned by the article, it seems like half arsed coverage.
Exactly what I was thinking. Especially considering many of those bands had careers spanning decades, and are still relatively popular today.
2005-04-08, 3:05 PM #7
Another thing that bothers me.

The Sex Pistols were out before The Buzzcocks.

If I recall, the Buzzcocks FIRST SHOW was opening for The Sex Pistols.
2005-04-09, 12:55 PM #8
man, it's been way to long since I've visted massassi, and heres my first post in months :p


Well, I really enjoyed this because I am somewhat of a punker myself, but I didn't not like that you neglected Bad Religions effects on punk music. ( bad religion being one of my favorite groups of all time). I think they deserve a mention somewhere in there. The Sex Pistols and Ramones may have in invented punk music, but I believe Bad Religion refined it into an art. There music actually sounds like music, instead of some of the NOISE of other well-known punk bands.
Flipsides crackers are the best crackers to have ever existed
2005-04-09, 7:07 PM #9
You're simply totally wrong.

No single person invented punk, and to state that it was Joey Ramone... do you even listen to music? Punk is so rooted in New York City its ridiculous. the Velvet Underground? New York Dolls? Plus there are all the bands you left out: you completely forgot to mention Dead Boys and Television, my favorite NYC 70s punk rock bands! Do you realize how much of an indirect effect these bands had on music? They're just as important as the Ramones. The Dead Boys pretty much invented true Bad Boy Rock n' Roll that would lead to bands like Guns n' Roses.

On the other side of the Atlantic, you totally overlooked entire MOVEMENTS within punk! Oi! The English Neo-Nazi movement! Also, in England, The Jam were the single most popular punk band... yes, more popular than the Clash.

My second major problem is that you are simply totally wrong about grunge. I mean, Disco died in 1980. It was over by the 80s. You totally don't understand punk, because you think it has to be popular to be alive. Infact, once its on a major label its questionable whether its still even punk. The 80s were the HAYDAY OF PUNK. PERHAPS EVEN ITS GOLDEN AGE! You totally over look the entire Washington D.C. scene, which produced two of the most important bands: Minor Threat and Fugazi! Minor Threat, being the premiere Hardcore band, and Fugazi being truely crafted punk. Plus, there's the entire SST label, which produced Husker Du, Minutemen... all these alternative punk bands.

Plus, you were one again totally wrong when you talked about another thing: grunge. The Pixies were not a grunge band.. they started in 1987, and their best stuff came out before Nirvana even came out. Infact, if you listened to any of the good music that came out of the 80s, you'd quickly realize that Kurt Cobain actually was very unintresting... He did nothing but copy all of his predecors. The only thing he did differently was he sold out to a major label. Jane's Addiction didn't come out of Seattle, they came from California.

And you think that Grunge died when Kurt Cobain shot himself? Kurt Cobain wasn't even that important, really. He's more important now than he was then. Back then Pearl Jam was the single most popular band in the America, if not the world.

honestly... you simply don't understand what your writing about it. You don't capture any of the angst in punk music, you think its defined by how people who listen or make it dress, and i'll tell you write now, some of the most die hard punks at heart you cannot distinguish from someone on the moderate-right.

I'm sorry if I sound angry, but quite frankly, I am. I'm offended, in fact. This is the type of thing that you read in Rolling Stone.

And the elitism.
former entrepreneur
2005-04-10, 9:53 PM #10
Oh yeah, you forgot to talk about all the elitism.
The music industry is a cruel and shallow money trench where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.
2005-04-10, 10:25 PM #11
Hey Flexor.
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2005-04-10, 11:12 PM #12
Punk really wasn't as important as post punk, in my opinion.

Bands like Joy Division (Post Ian Curtis = New Order), Siouxie and The Banshee's, and The Cure to name a few were way more influential and enduring.
2005-04-11, 4:20 AM #13
http://www.classicbands.com/banned.html

even before punk rock there was rock. and that is all!
"NAILFACE" - spe
2005-04-11, 5:54 AM #14
Man, it's scary how much they censored media in the 50's. Just imagine how they'd react to TODAY's music.
The music industry is a cruel and shallow money trench where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.
2005-04-11, 1:56 PM #15
Quote:
Originally posted by Rob
Punk really wasn't as important as post punk, in my opinion.

Bands like Joy Division (Post Ian Curtis = New Order), Siouxie and The Banshee's, and The Cure to name a few were way more influential and enduring.



There would be no post-punk if it weren't for punk. Many post-punk bands (i.e. Gang of Four, Joy Division, Wire, The Damned, etc) started as punk and changed their style as time went on. I mean I guess ultimately everything stems from 50s' rock n' roll, but punk changed the landscape of music in a way that no other sub-genre of rock has since The Beatles and the first British Invasion.

Quote:
Originally posted by Flexor
Oh yeah, you forgot to talk about all the elitism.


Yeah. You're right.

I'll edit that right in.
former entrepreneur
2005-04-11, 2:09 PM #16
Yes, those were the sentences.
The music industry is a cruel and shallow money trench where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.
2005-04-11, 2:20 PM #17
Another thing that you probably won't even bother to read:

Emo began LONG before Dashboard Confessional. The first Emo bands were Rites of Spring and Embrace. Both of these bands started in the mid 80s in Washington DC. The lead singers of both bands would later be in Fugazi.
former entrepreneur
2005-04-11, 5:29 PM #18
Alright, first of all, I didn't write this, Ok?!
I'm not a girl, and my name isn't Liesse Gomez.
2005-04-13, 3:30 AM #19
I love the fact that Green Day is labeled as a sell out by so many people. You know, deciding to pursue other songwriting/musical inspirations such as Bob Dylan is completely selling out. Cause, I'm sure what caused that is the record label... :rolleyes:

The author also forgot this part:

In late 2004 Green Day returned glory to punk music by releasing American Idiot, which upon close examination, has been found by some people (read: Me) to be one of the greatest albums ever created. If you can get past the media bull**** about the album being titled after George W. Bush (since, you know, the album has precisely nothing to do with him.) then you'd realize it's a very clever and thought provoking album, and that is something we haven't really seen alot of in punk music. Hooray for the ability to evolve and not produce another album of 3 chord riffs with lyrics about masturbating!
>>untie shoes
2005-04-13, 12:46 PM #20
I disagree. Green Day is not punk. While they try to adopt the punk aesthetic, you can't be on a major label and be punk. I suppose then you ask why The Ramones or the Clash or the Dead Boys were punk if they were on a major label, and to be honest, I don't know the answer... but any band after the first wave of punk bands who is on a major label simply is not punk.
former entrepreneur
2005-04-13, 4:23 PM #21
Labels dont mean crap, just because a band wants to be successful in what they do doesnt mean they suck.

o.0
2005-04-13, 5:01 PM #22
Quote:
Originally posted by Eversor
I disagree. Green Day is not punk. While they try to adopt the punk aesthetic, you can't be on a major label and be punk. I suppose then you ask why The Ramones or the Clash or the Dead Boys were punk if they were on a major label, and to be honest, I don't know the answer... but any band after the first wave of punk bands who is on a major label simply is not punk.


You are a fool.
>>untie shoes
2005-04-13, 6:58 PM #23
And what exactly do you consider to be a "major label?" For instance, Epitaph Records is definately a very popular label, yet it housed some of the greatest punk bands of the 80's and 90's, including Bad Religion, NOFX, The Offspring, Rancid...The list goes on. And Green Day is most definately punk (except for Warning, which was so kick-*** it didn't need to be), even though they don't sound like the Ramones or The Clash. Hell, that's what makes punk interesting. It's not (usually) the same old crap rehashed and redressed as something new.
2005-04-13, 9:21 PM #24
Punk rock, is pretty much without definition. If you actually end up "sounding" punk, then odds are, you're not really being punk, because you're just following in someone else's footsteps. If a band comes out with something and it sounds just like the Clash, then, bad news, it's not punk.
>>untie shoes
2005-04-14, 1:33 AM #25
Quote:
Originally posted by Eversor
Another thing that you probably won't even bother to read:

Emo began LONG before Dashboard Confessional. The first Emo bands were Rites of Spring and Embrace. Both of these bands started in the mid 80s in Washington DC. The lead singers of both bands would later be in Fugazi.


Yeah, but thats all Punk did worthwhile.

Post-punk bands have had a way more apparent effect on pop culture even now, than punk did.
2005-04-15, 11:59 AM #26
Quote:
Originally posted by Rob
Yeah, but thats all Punk did worthwhile.

Post-punk bands have had a way more apparent effect on pop culture even now, than punk did.


If popular culture is important to you, then good for you!

Quote:
Labels dont mean crap, just because a band wants to be successful in what they do doesnt mean they suck.


I didn't say they suck because they're on a major label. They simply aren't punk because they are on a major label. They do suck, though.

Quote:
And what exactly do you consider to be a "major label?" For instance, Epitaph Records is definately a very popular label, yet it housed some of the greatest punk bands of the 80's and 90's, including Bad Religion, NOFX, The Offspring, Rancid...The list goes on. And Green Day is most definately punk (except for Warning, which was so kick-*** it didn't need to be), even though they don't sound like the Ramones or The Clash. Hell, that's what makes punk interesting. It's not (usually) the same old crap rehashed and redressed as something new.


Epitaph isn't a major label. It doesn't plot trends and release records based on whats popular at the time. It releases what it wants to release. Kudos to them!
former entrepreneur
2005-04-15, 6:10 PM #27
Wow. That is the most onesided mindset I've ever come acrost as far as music go. Labels are just advertising for bands, bigger label = more people see your cds = more money from touring. But ofcourse punk bands are all about being liked by all of 5 people and living like bums!

o.0
2005-04-15, 8:33 PM #28
Quote:
Originally posted by Eversor
If popular culture is important to you, then good for you!



Punk WAS a pop culture movement, did you miss that memo?
2005-04-16, 6:48 AM #29
Quote:
Originally posted by Rob
Punk WAS a pop culture movement, did you miss that memo?


Yes, it was. But its effects took greater root in 'underground' culture than in pop culture.

Quote:
Wow. That is the most onesided mindset I've ever come acrost as far as music go. Labels are just advertising for bands, bigger label = more people see your cds = more money from touring. But ofcourse punk bands are all about being liked by all of 5 people and living like bums!


There are plenty of indie labels which are very sucessful. The problem with major labels is that they plug you into a business. First, to be signed by a major label, you have to sell yourself as a business. Then you have to run your band as a business. You are forced to be concerned with money. You have to be commericial or else you won't sell enough records. Sometimes I guess you can make the music you want to make and still make money, but then you're the backstreet boys.
former entrepreneur
2005-04-16, 7:17 AM #30
Quote:
Originally posted by Eversor
Yes, it was. But its effects took greater root in 'underground' culture than in pop culture.



HA HA HAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA, No.

Did you, like, miss the 1980's?
2005-04-16, 8:28 PM #31
No. Infact, i'm talking specifically about the 80s.


The 80s were the golden age of alternative music. if you ask me, Kurt Cobain did nothing but make truely alternative music streamlined.

Dinosaur Jr, Minutemen, Fugazi, The Pixies, Minor Threat, The Adolescents, Rites of Spring, Husker Du, Black Flag, Dead Kennedys, ... There were tons of bands that were directly effected by punk. Tons of music was created in the 80s. I used to think that the 80s were a stale decade of nothing but overly-synthed pop music, but then I realized that there was a whole side of the decade was so against the grain that it simply refused to integrate into pop culture.

Part of punk is the concept that anyone could pick up a guitar and feel inspired to play music whether they had any technical ability or not. That dream became a reality in the 80s, and while many of the music was never recorded, it was the truth. You may think that there will always be an 'underground' music scene which would always accomodate this notion, but let me tell you now, as someone who lives in New York City, I see that even 'underground' culture has to assimilate. I'm in a band, and its very hard to get gigs because we don't sound like 1. The Strokes 2. Interpol.

I understand that in the 80s there may have been a pop culture movement of 'punk'. Those kids who'd get piercings and wear studs... that may have been a pop culture movement, and that may be a result of punk. I understand that new wave/post-punk bands created the sound of the next decade. However, you cannot ignore that during the 80s there was also a huge counter-culture movement that refused to commericialize and assimilate.

If you think that its not the case, then I'll return that "HA HA HAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA" because your simply f**king wrong.
former entrepreneur
2005-04-16, 11:38 PM #32
If you think signing with a major record label means you're not punk anymore, then you're a ****ing idiot. Did you ever consider that maybe they wanted the ability to make the best music possible? Maybe they didn't want to have to work a regular day job so they could spend a little more time learning to do better guitar work and writing better material.

Here's a major thing that happens when you sign with a major label: your music actually sounds good. It's really weird how it happens and I can't make any sense of it. [/sarcasm] It must have something to do with the good recording equipment and the guy sitting there telling you that your bad songs suck ***, and they need to be reworked.

News flash eversor: 90% of the stuff that happens to a band when they sign onto a label is GOOD.

And here's another tid-bit: What do you think of bands refusing to assymilate into this pseudo-punk counter-culture by creating good music and making money from it? Isn't that punk in and of itself by refusing to go with what stereotypically defines a band as punk in your opinion?

Punk, in essence, is all about not fitting a major category. If you judge punk on any merits other than the message in the music, such as saying you can only be punk if you're indy, then you throwing the band into a major category.

And pop culture is not important to me. I listen to what I like, and nothing else. I do not watch television, read rolling stone, or listen to the radio. My musical taste is not defined by pop culture. Green Day is my favorite band because they call people like you morons in their latest CD. I respect them more than any other punk band because they have realized that many things which have in the past defined the punk sensability are fundamentally flawed and stupid.
>>untie shoes
2005-04-17, 2:14 AM #33
Quote:
Originally posted by Eversor
No. Infact, i'm talking specifically about the 80s.


The 80s were the golden age of alternative music. if you ask me, Kurt Cobain did nothing but make truely alternative music streamlined.

Dinosaur Jr, Minutemen, Fugazi, The Pixies, Minor Threat, The Adolescents, Rites of Spring, Husker Du, Black Flag, Dead Kennedys, ... There were tons of bands that were directly effected by punk. Tons of music was created in the 80s. I used to think that the 80s were a stale decade of nothing but overly-synthed pop music, but then I realized that there was a whole side of the decade was so against the grain that it simply refused to integrate into pop culture.

Part of punk is the concept that anyone could pick up a guitar and feel inspired to play music whether they had any technical ability or not. That dream became a reality in the 80s, and while many of the music was never recorded, it was the truth. You may think that there will always be an 'underground' music scene which would always accomodate this notion, but let me tell you now, as someone who lives in New York City, I see that even 'underground' culture has to assimilate. I'm in a band, and its very hard to get gigs because we don't sound like 1. The Strokes 2. Interpol.

I understand that in the 80s there may have been a pop culture movement of 'punk'. Those kids who'd get piercings and wear studs... that may have been a pop culture movement, and that may be a result of punk. I understand that new wave/post-punk bands created the sound of the next decade. However, you cannot ignore that during the 80s there was also a huge counter-culture movement that refused to commericialize and assimilate.

If you think that its not the case, then I'll return that "HA HA HAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA" because your simply f**king wrong.


Refused to commercialiaze and assimilate? No.

Very much assimilated.

Thats why they had PUNK ROCK clothing stores.

It was a fad, and a pop culture movement. It hasn't even been that enduring in "Underground scenes."

Unless when you say underground scenes, you mean local bands nobody cares about because they're sans-talent.

PS, golden age of punk was the Late seventies. I would have accepted the underground movement and refusal to integrate into society argument as well if punk hadn't exploded the way it did in the 80s.
2005-04-17, 7:34 AM #34
Quote:
And pop culture is not important to me. I listen to what I like, and nothing else. I do not watch television, read rolling stone, or listen to the radio. My musical taste is not defined by pop culture. Green Day is my favorite band because they call people like you morons in their latest CD. I respect them more than any other punk band because they have realized that many things which have in the past defined the punk sensability are fundamentally flawed and stupid.


Well thats just adorable, but Green Day has done pretty much nothing interesting, and due to this, I really don't care what they have to say.

Would you rather hear what Green Day has to say, or Fugazi? Ian MacKaye has been making music since 1979. He was in Minor Threat, which advanced Hardcore to a whole new plane. He was in Fugazi which, quite frankly, brought MUSIC to a whole new plane. Have you listened to Fugazi? Its not psuedo-punk... Its poetry on top of instrumental that sounds truely new. Inspite of all of this, he refused to sign to a major label because he didn't want people like you to be listening to his music.

So if you compare that with Green Day, I don't care what the hell they have to say. They're a lost cause. Their new album is being heralded as genius, and people like you buy it. Woohoo for them! Its a rock opera! That was done in 1969 with Tommy, and everyone knows that. Green Day does nothing but suggest that people pursue ignorance... HATE REPUBLICANS! HATE THE PRESIDENT! HATE PEOPLE WHO THINK WE'RE SELL OUTS! Waaaaah....

Quote:
Here's a major thing that happens when you sign with a major label: your music actually sounds good. It's really weird how it happens and I can't make any sense of it. [/sarcasm] It must have something to do with the good recording equipment and the guy sitting there telling you that your bad songs suck ***, and they need to be reworked.


You can have that access to people/production equiptment on an Indie label too. Infact, my friend's in a band that isn't even signed, and their recordings were recorded in a studio which has produced platinum records. [url]www.myspace.com/thefinelines[/url]

Quote:
Refused to commercialiaze and assimilate? No.

Very much assimilated.

Thats why they had PUNK ROCK clothing stores.

It was a fad, and a pop culture movement. It hasn't even been that enduring in "Underground scenes."

Unless when you say underground scenes, you mean local bands nobody cares about because they're sans-talent.

PS, golden age of punk was the Late seventies. I would have accepted the underground movement and refusal to integrate into society argument as well if punk hadn't exploded the way it did in the 80s.


Those who assimilated, to me, were merely the tip of the iceberg; below the tip of my cliche, there was a ton going. There are some fundamental concepts that punk started which simply didn't exist previous to the late 70s, and I give them credit to starting alternative music. For example, when CBGB opened, it was the only club in New York City that allowed a band to play if it wasn't signed to a label. As you might imagine, that is something which has changed quite a bit in New York in the past 30 years. Punk also made people want to make music. You can shuffle off all those 'sans-talent' local bands, but they are a product of punk. Just because you don't know them, doesn't mean they suck. There are quite a few bands in New York City which are incredible and you will probably never hear of them. For example, Autrodrone is one of my favorite bands. They aren't signed or anything but they're awesome. They make interesting music that sounds really fresh. Just because a label hasn't come and picked them up doesn't make them one of those 'sans talent' local bands, does it? Does it make them meaningless?

Of course not, and that is the influence of Punk. You don't need a record label to make music. You just need some friends and some instruments.
former entrepreneur
2005-04-17, 10:57 AM #35
Quote:
Originally posted by Eversor
Green Day does nothing but suggest that people pursue ignorance... HATE REPUBLICANS! HATE THE PRESIDENT! HATE PEOPLE WHO THINK WE'RE SELL OUTS! Waaaaah....
I told myself I wasn't going to dive into this again, but simply put, you are completely wrong. They take one shot at the President in the entire album. And considering it's the only album they've released since the whole 9/11-Afghanistan-Iraq situation, I doubt they were doing much criticizing in their previous material. And yes, I do dislike people like you, who dismiss musicians based on the fact that they've "sold out."And if you think I do so because Green Day told me to, you're even a bigger ****ing moron than I thought. If you honestly don't like their music, that's fine. But don't just make **** up because they don't fit your ideals of what punk should be.
2005-04-17, 11:50 AM #36
Quote:
Originally posted by Eversor
Inspite of all of this, he refused to sign to a major label because he didn't want people like you to be listening to his music.


I don't think that is true at all. Fugazi didn't sign to a major label because they wanted to maintain control of all aspects of their band and music, and because they believe that major labels are more about the money than the music. In fact, I think MacKaye would be pretty disgusted with your idea that Bill is somehow below Fugazi's music. They don't seem like the people who would want to exclude others for some asinine clique-related reason. Of course, I certainly can't speak for the band, but that's just the impression I've gotten from the interviews I've read and the documentary about them (It's called Instrument and I recommend checking it out. It's quite awesome).


I enjoy Green Day's music, and I respect that at least someone in the mainstream is making a political statement. All of these underground punk bands, while awesome, are just preaching to the choir.
2005-04-17, 1:44 PM #37
Everybodies' musical taste is somehow influenced by pop culture.

None of us are beautiful or unique snowflakes.

In a world of more than 6 billion people, it's pretty useless to hold onto the concept of individuality.
2005-04-17, 1:51 PM #38
why the **** do you bother if a band is a major label or not? listen to the music and like it or hate it. that's what it's about.

I bet you won't ever do a gig in a major bar because you don't want people like "us" listening to your music. following your logic.
"NAILFACE" - spe
2005-04-17, 1:59 PM #39
I never said anything about major lebales affecting my opinion of a band.

I was saying, Punk wasnt as important as people think it is. It made angst cool, big whoop. It's about as important as Grunge, which made angst cool... again.



There have been clubs that have played unsigned artists for a bajillion years. The only difference with CBGB is that New York for a long time has been considered the new art capitol of the world. It's an art town, and honestly the standards are fairly strict, and elitism is around every corner. People are measured based upon their success as an artist in a capitalist society way more than depth of material there, even now.
2005-04-17, 2:25 PM #40
wasn't talking to you Rob :p
"NAILFACE" - spe

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