Two of the GREATEST and most influential bands of ALL TIME.

But it's amazing to me, how many people know not of their greatness!

Discuss.

I saw New Order at Coachella. They sucked.

heard of neither. They must not be that good.

Joy Division is much better than anything New Order did. For me, Ian Curtis simply makes that band.

Its easy to say that post-punk bands are so influential in 2005 when all the magazines are raving about how awesome these new neo-post-punk bands are, but I think again you way overestimate the influence of post-punk.

I don't think so.

Post Punk was at the center of the start of New Wave, Alternative, AND goth.

Three of the most important music genres of the last 25 years.

One might argue against new wave being important, but it changed pop music, ALOT.

Alternative was far more rooted in Hardcore. Post-punk (Gang of Four, Wire, The Cure, etc) was hardly an American form of music. I suppose you could say hardcore is a type of post-punk, but I would say its more of a type of punk.

Additionally, New Wave started at the same time as punk. Blondie and Talking Heads were playing CBGBs at the same time as The Ramones, Television and The Dead Boys.

No doubt, I agree these things are important, but the music that post-punk influenced is very stuck in time. Its an 80s thing. Its fine if the 80s are a big thing, as they are in this decade, but punk... punk is timeless. Its found incarnations and relevance despite it being the 70s, 80s, 90s or 00s.

I really don't see 90's punk and the punk revival of the 80's the same as the punk that started in the 70's.

To me, though, punk was never a sound. It was an attitude, and a way of life, and throughout the separate "punk" movements the way of life and the attitude has changed.

While Joy Division may have SOUNDED punk, their lyrical content and mood were nothing close.

New Wave began at around the same time as punk, but I don't really think it started untill the early 80's.

Punk continued on through the 80s. How can you deny Hardcore/Post-Hardcore as a continuation of punks attitude... The DC punk scene, the california hardcore scene, all of the SST bands... They all bought into punks attitude (although, as you said, not necessarily its sound).

I mean its kind of a difficult discussion to have -- when new wave started and when it first happened. I mean its hard to deny that Talking Heads and Blondie both released albums in 1977, which is pretty much the year punk happened. Then again, post-punk started in 1979, and as i'm sure you know, many punk bands adopted a more sophistcated aesethic/sound. Thats how I see it.


But, anyway, I don't really find Joy Division to be that important. Although one of my favorite bands, they simply don't have the same influence as bands like The Sex Pistols or The Clash.. they're both bands which pretty much spawned an array of genres.. where as Joy Division was simply a band that existed under a title which was very loosely defined (that title being post-punk), and created music under that genre that exists in a single time (the 1980s, and I guess against in 2000)