My friend and I were debating the existence of.. well everything. Here is the link he sent me, read this first, and then the rest.
And now for the actual conversation/debate...
[edit- sorry about that formatting. Should be better now.]
Quote:
JUSTIN'S 'WE ARE ALL FISH' THEORY.
In 6th grade I decided that not a one of us could prove that we're not all fish. Everyone thought I was loony bin insane. Of course, I later found out that some philosopher said it and people thought he was brilliant. Stupid
Descartes, I'll show you!
Many philosophers like to say that we cannot prove anything, as we have no frame of reference to say our senses are reliable. Now, since we have no clue what's actually going on, assuming that every possible state of reality has an equal chance of being the true reality seems reasonable. Out of every possible degree of our perception being wrong, there are two extreme points of possible reality. One is that everything we observe is correct, at least until we observe something else that contradicts it. The other is that nothing we observe is correct, and thus absolutely nothing at all exists and we're all figments of nothing's nonexistent imagination. (Both of which, of course, are utter mind-warps).
As we move less extreme, more and more possibilities open up and at a very fast rate. From the nothing side of the spectrum, we immediately get the possibility that something out there exists and is imagining this all, and there is a mind-blowing array of possible things that could be that one thing. From the everything spectrum, we start getting a plethora of situations where some degree of what we see is false, perhaps enough so that when I close my eyes, everything still exists.
Following through, one can see an increasing number of possibilities as we get ever slightly less distant from our extremes. At a true middle ground, there will be the largest number of possibilities. We've already established that of all the possible true realities, the one (maybe more, but let's not strain ourselves) correct reality is equally likely to be any of them. Since we have no proof at all of anything, it's reasonable to say one is chosen at random. Statistically speaking, the chances are by far the highest at the mid point, so we likely live in a universe where about half of what we observe is real.
Therefore, I exist, but half of you are figments of the collective imagination of others and myself, and a good number of the people who actually do exist are fish.
-Justin
In 6th grade I decided that not a one of us could prove that we're not all fish. Everyone thought I was loony bin insane. Of course, I later found out that some philosopher said it and people thought he was brilliant. Stupid
Descartes, I'll show you!
Many philosophers like to say that we cannot prove anything, as we have no frame of reference to say our senses are reliable. Now, since we have no clue what's actually going on, assuming that every possible state of reality has an equal chance of being the true reality seems reasonable. Out of every possible degree of our perception being wrong, there are two extreme points of possible reality. One is that everything we observe is correct, at least until we observe something else that contradicts it. The other is that nothing we observe is correct, and thus absolutely nothing at all exists and we're all figments of nothing's nonexistent imagination. (Both of which, of course, are utter mind-warps).
As we move less extreme, more and more possibilities open up and at a very fast rate. From the nothing side of the spectrum, we immediately get the possibility that something out there exists and is imagining this all, and there is a mind-blowing array of possible things that could be that one thing. From the everything spectrum, we start getting a plethora of situations where some degree of what we see is false, perhaps enough so that when I close my eyes, everything still exists.
Following through, one can see an increasing number of possibilities as we get ever slightly less distant from our extremes. At a true middle ground, there will be the largest number of possibilities. We've already established that of all the possible true realities, the one (maybe more, but let's not strain ourselves) correct reality is equally likely to be any of them. Since we have no proof at all of anything, it's reasonable to say one is chosen at random. Statistically speaking, the chances are by far the highest at the mid point, so we likely live in a universe where about half of what we observe is real.
Therefore, I exist, but half of you are figments of the collective imagination of others and myself, and a good number of the people who actually do exist are fish.
-Justin
And now for the actual conversation/debate...
Quote:
Justin: so, how are you? Are you happy today?
Happydud: Well, you know. Existence = true.
Justin: Nope, I don't know that.
Justin: Have you read my fish article?
Happydud: nope.
Justin: Oh, shame. It was in Impulse. I think I have it online somewhere, one second.
Justin: (SEE TOP)
Happydud: I approve.
Justin: Thanks.
Justin: So, are you sure you exist?
Happydud: Relatively sure.
Happydud: But how do I know that you exist?
Happydud: Maybe you're a figment of my imagination, designed to ensure that I come upon this theory? (Which thought about before (though not the fish part))
Justin: Did you reach the middle reality conclusion too?
Happydud: No, I decided that that was too improbable.
Happydud: Either everything exists
Happydud: or only I exist.
Happydud: I've yet to devise an experiment to prove either.
Happydud: Theoretically, I could jump into the body/mind of another person, but both of the two possible results would be irreleveant.
Happydud: Either my consciousness only exists in my body, thus causing my mind to cease existing, thus destroying the only thing in the universe.
Happydud: Or only I exist, so my conciousness would just be transfered to the new body
Happydud: thus proving nothing.
Justin: By everything exists, do you mean in the classical sense, or in the sense that everything you perceive, even things you reason incorect, exist?
Happydud: I mean in the classical sense, sorry.
Happydud: As in I exist, you exist.
Happydud: that tree over there exists.
Happydud: Not "everything" as in both star wars AND star trek exist.
Justin: Alright.
Justin: And what about the possibility that even you are a figment of nothing's imagination?
Happydud: I know I am not. For I know that I can think, therefore I am.
Happydud: One does not imagine false people that think
Happydud: They only imagine false people that do, and act.
Happydud: I think that imagined, fake people have the outward appearance of thinking, but can not actually think.
Justin: There's no proof of that, though.
Justin: If you imagine people and they can think for themselves, then are they real?
Happydud: But I know what goes on in my head, and I know that I can think, I can make spontanious thoughts and motions.
Happydud: No, because they can not actually think for themselves. Your imagination controls them.
Happydud: You can not create a person in your imagination, and then try to have them lift their left arm, and they end up taking off their shirt.
Happydud: You can't be truely surprised by what someone you imagine does.
Happydud: Because you imagine it.
Happydud: (Dreams are a different story, but the same idea. Your subconscious still controls how they act.)
Justin: I beg to differ.
Justin: Becouse I play go against myself.
Happydud: Ah, but that analogy doesn't fit.
Happydud: You(prime) makes a move
Happydud: You(prime) expects you(2) to make the move You(prime) forsaw
Happydud: But you(2) can see a different move that is better (or worse) than the move You(prime) saw.
Happydud: So you(2) could make that move.
Happydud: Or, you(2) could make a completely random move.
Justin: Good argument
Happydud: But it would still not surprise You(prime), as both you(2) and You(prime) are one and the same.
Justin: I've been suprised with some moves that I made.
Happydud: Yes, but that's because You(prime) didn't see the move before You(prime) moved.
Happydud: Then, once You(prime) moved, you(2) saw the move and made it, however the emotion of surprise is still possible.
Happydud: When, for instance, you lift something heavier than you thought you could. This is surprising yourself, but it is not something you imagined surprising you.
Happydud: What I'm saying is that it isn't possible to imagine someone else- human, alien, rabbit, whatever- and have it do something /truely/ unexpected.
Justin: I disagree, at the very least becouse we have no proof that logic works as we think it does.
Justin: However, you have very good points.
Justin: I think you'll agree that the truth is moot, whatever it is
Happydud: I concur.
Happydud: Well, you know. Existence = true.
Justin: Nope, I don't know that.
Justin: Have you read my fish article?
Happydud: nope.
Justin: Oh, shame. It was in Impulse. I think I have it online somewhere, one second.
Justin: (SEE TOP)
Happydud: I approve.
Justin: Thanks.
Justin: So, are you sure you exist?
Happydud: Relatively sure.
Happydud: But how do I know that you exist?
Happydud: Maybe you're a figment of my imagination, designed to ensure that I come upon this theory? (Which thought about before (though not the fish part))
Justin: Did you reach the middle reality conclusion too?
Happydud: No, I decided that that was too improbable.
Happydud: Either everything exists
Happydud: or only I exist.
Happydud: I've yet to devise an experiment to prove either.
Happydud: Theoretically, I could jump into the body/mind of another person, but both of the two possible results would be irreleveant.
Happydud: Either my consciousness only exists in my body, thus causing my mind to cease existing, thus destroying the only thing in the universe.
Happydud: Or only I exist, so my conciousness would just be transfered to the new body
Happydud: thus proving nothing.
Justin: By everything exists, do you mean in the classical sense, or in the sense that everything you perceive, even things you reason incorect, exist?
Happydud: I mean in the classical sense, sorry.
Happydud: As in I exist, you exist.
Happydud: that tree over there exists.
Happydud: Not "everything" as in both star wars AND star trek exist.
Justin: Alright.
Justin: And what about the possibility that even you are a figment of nothing's imagination?
Happydud: I know I am not. For I know that I can think, therefore I am.
Happydud: One does not imagine false people that think
Happydud: They only imagine false people that do, and act.
Happydud: I think that imagined, fake people have the outward appearance of thinking, but can not actually think.
Justin: There's no proof of that, though.
Justin: If you imagine people and they can think for themselves, then are they real?
Happydud: But I know what goes on in my head, and I know that I can think, I can make spontanious thoughts and motions.
Happydud: No, because they can not actually think for themselves. Your imagination controls them.
Happydud: You can not create a person in your imagination, and then try to have them lift their left arm, and they end up taking off their shirt.
Happydud: You can't be truely surprised by what someone you imagine does.
Happydud: Because you imagine it.
Happydud: (Dreams are a different story, but the same idea. Your subconscious still controls how they act.)
Justin: I beg to differ.
Justin: Becouse I play go against myself.
Happydud: Ah, but that analogy doesn't fit.
Happydud: You(prime) makes a move
Happydud: You(prime) expects you(2) to make the move You(prime) forsaw
Happydud: But you(2) can see a different move that is better (or worse) than the move You(prime) saw.
Happydud: So you(2) could make that move.
Happydud: Or, you(2) could make a completely random move.
Justin: Good argument
Happydud: But it would still not surprise You(prime), as both you(2) and You(prime) are one and the same.
Justin: I've been suprised with some moves that I made.
Happydud: Yes, but that's because You(prime) didn't see the move before You(prime) moved.
Happydud: Then, once You(prime) moved, you(2) saw the move and made it, however the emotion of surprise is still possible.
Happydud: When, for instance, you lift something heavier than you thought you could. This is surprising yourself, but it is not something you imagined surprising you.
Happydud: What I'm saying is that it isn't possible to imagine someone else- human, alien, rabbit, whatever- and have it do something /truely/ unexpected.
Justin: I disagree, at the very least becouse we have no proof that logic works as we think it does.
Justin: However, you have very good points.
Justin: I think you'll agree that the truth is moot, whatever it is
Happydud: I concur.
[edit- sorry about that formatting. Should be better now.]
