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☖ Forums → Showcase → I've started writing a fictional work.
12
I've started writing a fictional work.
2013-09-21, 3:51 AM #1
It's way, way early along and at this point I haven't even settled on a style, I've found that my writing in general is evolving as it goes on, and decided to write the entire story out, in a terrible un proof read form, and then re-write the entire thing into a form that doesn't suck to anybody that isn't me. I feel I need to say that before saying what I say next. I'm 30,000 words into that and it's been an amazing exercise as far as my thinking and narrative skills go, but they still suck.

I'm wondering if you guys would mind giving me some tips, and judging some of the ideas I've had, and possibly critiquing some short passages if I feel they need to be tightened up. I think the idea I have is good enough that it deserves to me made into an actual novel, but that takes a whole lotta work and I'm nowhere close to that point yet.

So I ask you, should I throw a random passage, an idea, or something else your way would you mind sharing your thoughts on it? I'm deffo having major issues with dialogue in general. I can write what a character is saying well enough, but I'm having serious trouble making it not just X said "y" "z" said x "fart" asked a "fart hell" replied X. I got overuse of said bad and would love input on how to fix that.
2013-09-21, 2:34 PM #2
I think as far as input on how to fix that, you should read some dece authors who do it well, and kinda take notes on that or just absorb it in general. Check out some Cormac McCarthy stuff for a non-traditional spin on dialogue. I'll recommend The Road, since it's post-apocalyptic-esque and might suit your fancy. Although since you're into ponies, you may like All the Pretty Horses, etc.

In general, I like the idea of giving tips and helping, but as Koobie has discovered, it's kinda hard to get that for prose/poetry, because it's a bit of a time-suck for the critic. Like thrawn said,

Quote:
I don't read people's writing they post on the internet anymore because it's a big time investment and they're almost never good enough for it to be worth it.


[/COLOR]It's probably good that you are aware of your current shortcomings, and admirable that you intend to forge ahead, but someone would have you care about your success a lot to read hundreds or thousands of words to aid it.

I'd recommend seeking out a good forum that's dedicated to this purpose... there've got to be a few. Can't say I know any, but if you find one, I'm sure you'll have far more luck than Massassi Showcase, unless what you're looking for is just... general tips, or places to look for help, or author recommendations in the genre you're writing, whatever.

Good luck!
2013-09-21, 3:20 PM #3
Any help is good, anything at all.
One of the major plot points is the protagonist is able to prove that a low ranking noble is actually the legal heir to the throne, but the current monarch has ruled justly and wisely for quite a long time- the actual heir is an inexperienced, but kind, person that has only a hundred odd subjects. So, the question is asked, who is more justified in ruling? In the end the two agree to keep the status quo, with the current monarch stepping down after the climax of the story that sees the inexperienced noble save the realm.

please tell me this idea is unique and you can't throw a million examples in other works at me

also this entire thing literally started as a dream i had and then continued in my mind, eventually a whole story emerged from this and I quickly wrote the basics down, then i began to work on a first draft proper.
2013-09-21, 6:06 PM #4
also every single time i feel like asking somebody about anything i feel horribly embarrassed. I honestly think this work will end up meaning something when i finish, if not for others then for myself at the very least, but i have this deep seated fear of people thinking my ideas are childish, cliched, or stolen. this site is perfect for me to ask question because everybody already thinks I'm a dork so i can do no wrong,

i just realized i've put more words into this project then every single other project, school work or otherwise, combined.
2013-09-21, 7:29 PM #5
Tibby:

A. Stop worrying about what others are going to think of the story. You need to write the story you want to tell. If you try to accommodate other people's ideas, it's not really your story anymore. Note that this has nothing to do with critiquing writing style or whatever, that's a separate issue.
B. Depending on how far you analyze it, everything becomes a cliche at some point. If the story is strong, then it doesn't matter.
C. No one writes a bestseller their first go.
D. As far as dealing with the continuous "said" issue, reading other books is definitely a good idea. But also it's important to realize that this is a way to convey emotion or actions. Think of it this way: "Tibby is an idiot", Jon`C spat. Spat says a lot. It doesn't really mean he spit, but it does mean that he was disgusted and aggravated. It may seem hard to come up with appropriate words, but it's a lot easier if you think about what why they're saying this phrase. That was what helped me, by realizing I shouldn't asking "how is this person talking", but "why is this person talking".
2013-09-21, 7:39 PM #6
Your last note is a good thought and I agree that I need to write the story I want to tell, I just also want to be able to do it in such a way that others can enjoy it. I'll never pander or anything, I just want it to be approachable.
2013-09-21, 7:45 PM #7
Unless it's written in monkey feces it'll be approachable. Just get the story on paper first. The whole thing. Then you can go back and revise to your heart's content, and bring others in on it to clean it up. If you start self-editing yourself while you're writing the story, I can pretty much guarantee you won't finish it.
2013-09-21, 9:25 PM #8
That's what I'm doing. I'm writing it out without proofing or fact checking or anything I'm just rolling along, then I'll re-read that and start again- that time will be for keeps.
I started out with a 3rd person narrative structure, but it morphed into 3rd person with multiple concurrent plot lines, I'm not sure what works better but I'm just trying things. Experiments in narrative irony and other ideas abound.
I also found that, in doing this exercise, I began to understand the characters far better then before. As I wrote them I began to feel like I knew them, and then got all the more better and making their actions and dialogue make sense.

You're being remarkably sincere and kind, I'm kind of surprised.

E: Coming close to the end of the fourth chapter, I find that each chapter has almost organically come to have it's own story that ties into the greater story. It's almost like my brain is so influenced by tv that it can't help structuring this like a TV show. A good thing I guess, maybe I'll end up with a career in childrens cartoons in a decade.
E2: Either I'm really good at writing action sequences, or I just think I am. It's hard to tell.
E3: I've found several spots where I've written myself into a corner, or a plot hole, or otherwise. but because I know this is just a first throw away draft I just press on, leaving the fixing of those problems for later. Multiple times I have actually come up with fixes for these problems while doing entirely different things.
2013-09-23, 7:20 AM #9
Sup.

Ideas are easy, implementation is hard. Be prepared to sink a lot of time & effort into this endeavour, but if you love what you do, telling stories is its own reward. ;) It's a pretty thankless business in the beginning (usually), but it picks up.

If you are serious, this will help you:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/index.php
http://www.critters.org

On the first site, go to Share Your Work. Password is vista; you need 50 posts before you can post stuff. Advise you get there is relatively sound.
On the second one, you have to crit pieces in return, and it may take a while waiting in queue, but you usually get quite a few detailed responses. There's also a CRIT MY NOVEL section there.

I can crit the first 3 - 5 paragraphs for you if you want.

Also, take all advise you get with a grain of salt. Eg,

>> : "Tibby is an idiot", Jon`C spat. Spat says a lot. It doesn't really mean he spit, but it does mean that he was disgusted and aggravated.

Writing 101: don't use substitutes for "said". You don't spit out words. You say them. Things like he spat, he murmured, he prophesied, he bellowed, etc. are usually the tell-signs of an amateur. If you absolutely must put a modifier, use an adjective (but avoid it if you can; how the character says something should be evident from the context).

More on dialogue (I've only skimmed through it, but it seems legit): http://www.scribophile.com/academy/he-said-she-said-dialog-tags-and-using-them-effectively

>> also every single time i feel like asking somebody about anything i feel horribly embarrassed. I honestly think this work will end up meaning something when i finish, if not for others then for myself at the very least, but i have this deep seated fear of people thinking my ideas are childish, cliched, or stolen. this site is perfect for me to ask question because everybody already thinks I'm a dork so i can do no wrong,

You have to have thick skin in this biz. If you get deeper into it, after your hundredth rejection slip, you won't care so much. Just focus on getting better.

So yeah. Don't worry too much, finish this project. The worst thing you'll ever write will be infinitely better than the best thing you don't. Good luck.

Peace.

PS. There are no rules to this game. ;)
PPS. BUY MY $0.99 BOOK COME NOVEMBER lululululz
幻術
2013-09-23, 9:29 AM #10
I'll totally buy your book.
I've come this far I'm not stopping now, it'll take a lot of time and effort but writing is something that feels good so it's got that going for it.
Complete draft, compile report on what it's missing, any problems it has, and start over- that i'll be willing to share Legit thanks for the links.
2013-09-23, 10:41 AM #11
Yah, the 1st draft can be a *****.
When in the editing stage, one thing you can do is read your draft aloud to see if it sounds wrong.
Another awesome resource is the blog of the author Chuck Wendig, http://terribleminds.com
It's full of very, very good advise on writing, editing, publishing, etc.
幻術
2013-09-23, 12:44 PM #12
Alright. I wasn't going to post anything, since I don't have any business talking about writing, but some of the things I've read so far are really bothering me. I don't want to single anyone out or pick apart posts, so instead I'm going to talk about general artistic skill development.

1.) Divorce yourself from your work. This doesn't mean "have thick skin". Criticism isn't something to be weathered, it's something that should bother you enough to push you towards honing your craft. Learn the difference between criticism of your work vs. criticism of your person.

2.) Seek the right kind of criticism from the right kind of people. What you need is technical guidance from people who are substantially better than you. What you're going to find on the internet is a gigantic amateur hour bikeshedding circlejerk. Criticism from amateurs/self-published authors is going to be a waste of time at best, and actively harmful at worst. Outside of art school you might have a hard time finding expert technical criticism, but you can always independently study how professionals approach the trade. An hour spent studying the works of an artist you admire is worth a lifetime of bad advice from people at your skill level.

3.) Learn to let yourself suck. Forever and always you will read something you wrote a month ago, and you will instantly think of a better way to rewrite it. Your drafts will always be full of ****ty dialogue and word repetition. It doesn't matter. If you aren't moving, you're dinner.

4.) Show, don't tell. This applies to every. single. creative. medium. ever. This is bad: <<"Tibby is an idiot", Jon`C spat>> (sry cm). It's not bad because it's "amateurish" or "melodramatic" or any other proscriptive bull**** excuse, it's bad because you shouldn't need to explain that those words are spoken with force and contempt. It should be clear from the context, what is said, and from your characters' personalities. 'Show, don't tell' also saves you from having pages upon pages of dialogue in the first place.
2013-09-23, 4:28 PM #13
"Tibby, is an idiot!" Jon'c yelled, slamming his hands on the table, hate in his eyes.


how does this work


Also legit thanks for the words and advice wow, I love you guys.
2013-09-24, 7:06 AM #14
>> It's not bad because it's "amateurish" or "melodramatic" or any other proscriptive bull**** excuse, it's bad because you shouldn't need to explain that those words are spoken with force and contempt.

That's what makes it amateurish, Jon'C.

> Criticism from amateurs/self-published authors is going to be a waste of time at best, and actively harmful at worst.

Self-published does not equal bad in exactly the same way that traditionally published does not equal good.
幻術
2013-09-24, 7:09 AM #15
>> An hour spent studying the works of an artist you admire is worth a lifetime of bad advice from people at your skill level.

Apart from the HIGH HORSE FACTOR, he has a point. I suggest transcribing stories (or entire books if you're hardcore) by hand.
幻術
2013-09-24, 7:16 AM #16
>> 1.) Divorce yourself from your work. This doesn't mean "have thick skin". Criticism isn't something to be weathered, it's something that should bother you enough to push you towards honing your craft. Learn the difference between criticism of your work vs. criticism of your person.

ie., take the advise you think is helpful, ignore the rest.
幻術
2013-09-24, 7:19 AM #17
I would also recommend to write short stories after you finish your current project. They will allow you to practice writing beginnings, middles & ends, help define your voice, style, etc. And they're a heck lot of fun. Get & read a copy of The Elements of Style and other writing books. I can recommend a couple I really liked if you want when I get home.
幻術
2013-09-24, 8:09 AM #18
Originally posted by Koobie:
That's what makes it amateurish, Jon'C.
Then why didn't you say so? Because telling someone not to do something because it's "amateurish" is a pretty ****ing amateurish way of explaining something.

"Writing 101: ugh, using descriptive verbs is so droll, only the common folk resort to such things"

Quote:
Self-published does not equal bad in exactly the same way that traditionally published does not equal good.
No, what self-published equals is "amateur plus $200". The people who are really passionate about a craft, and have the privilege to practice for a living, full-time, have simply put in more hours. Those are the sorts of people you want to comment on your form, not someone with a casual hobby and a serious vanity problem.

Originally posted by Koobie:
Apart from the HIGH HORSE FACTOR, he has a point.
Thick skin.

Quote:
I suggest transcribing stories (or entire books if you're hardcore) by hand.
Uh. Are you being sarcastic?

From the OP: 'I'm deffo having major issues with dialogue in general. I can write what a character is saying well enough, but I'm having serious trouble making it not just X said "y" "z" said x "fart" asked a "fart hell" replied X.' If you have a question like that, you can go to a book that you think handled those things well and research how it is structured.

That's what study means. When did drill problems ever help? Like, what?

Originally posted by Koobie:
ie., take the advise you think is helpful, ignore the rest.
No, in fact what I'm saying is the total opposite. Criticism shouldn't ever be ignored.

Divorcing yourself from your work means you don't have an ego about it. You don't get so emotionally invested in the things you make that you ever feel defensive or start to ignore "unfair" criticism. Because, frankly, if you can't distance yourself from your work, you aren't even in a position to recognize what is helpful or unhelpful criticism.

Three million people bought your book and a major studio has optioned it. That's something to have an ego about, not the careful word choice in your Jurassic Park/Dino-Riders crossover slash fic.

Originally posted by Koobie:
I would also recommend to write short stories after you finish your current project. They will allow you to practice writing beginnings, middles & ends, help define your voice, style, etc. And they're a heck lot of fun. Get & read a copy of The Elements of Style and other writing books. I can recommend a couple I really liked if you want when I get home.
sweet, are we recommending prescriptive/proscriptive writing manuals? tyool 1955 itt.

http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497
2013-09-24, 8:50 AM #19
Holy Kak, Jon'C strikes again! :D

>>Then why didn't you say so? Because telling someone not to do something because it's "amateurish" is a pretty ****ing amateurish way of explaining something.

I followed through with an example, if you haven't noticed.

>>No, what self-published equals is "amateur plus $200". The people who are really passionate about a craft, and have the privilege to practice for a living, full-time, have simply put in more hours. Those are the sorts of people you want to comment on your form, not someone with a casual hobby and a serious vanity problem.

Talk about a vanity problem, lol. ;)

Some thoughts on self-publishing from a writer I respect (and with which I happen to agree): http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2011/12/12/the-precarious-portentious-perils-of-self-publishing/

>>Thick skin.

If you were to crit something I wrote, it'd be a different story. As it is, I find you mega-annoying. You come off as extremely arrogant with nothing (that I know of) to back up your arrogance instead of more arrogance.

>>Uh. Are you being sarcastic?

>>From the OP: 'I'm deffo having major issues with dialogue in general. I can write what a character is saying well enough, but I'm having serious trouble making it not just X said "y" "z" said x "fart" asked a "fart hell" replied X.' If you have a question like that, you can go to a book that you think handled those things well and research how it is structured.

>>That's what study means. When did drill problems ever help? Like, what?

I am not being sarcastic. Next thing you're going to tell me that you don't have to read to be a writer? Come on, man. Transcribing something you like by hand helps you see exactly how the writer handled each word, each sentence, and each paragraph. It helps notice little details that you might have otherwise overlooked.

>>No, in fact what I'm saying is the total opposite. Criticism shouldn't ever be ignored.

>>Divorcing yourself from your work means you don't have an ego about it. You don't get so emotionally invested in the things you make that you ever feel defensive or start to ignore "unfair" criticism. Because, frankly, if you can't distance yourself from your work, you aren't even in a position to recognize what is helpful or unhelpful criticism.

>>Three million people bought your book and a major studio has optioned it. That's something to have an ego about, not the careful word choice in your Jurassic Park/Dino-Riders crossover slash fic.

I think you are confusing "taking only the advise that helps" for what it's not, even though the phrase is only 6 words long. It does not mean "ignoring what you don't like because it hurts your ego." It means ignoring advise or criticism that is not helpful., eg. CM's example above (and yeah, sorry CM, I know your intentions were good).
幻術
2013-09-24, 8:54 AM #20
I'm not saying "distancing yourself from your work" is a bad idea, but what I was talking about had nothing to do with ego. One good trick is to let whatever you were working on sit for a few weeks before you start editing so that you can look at it with fresh eyes.
幻術
2013-09-24, 8:59 AM #21
Originally posted by Jon`C:
http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497


Bet you donuts to sex that you've never read it.
幻術
2013-09-24, 9:40 AM #22
I'm not even half a writer, but I know enough to know that Koobie isn't nearly as good a writer as he thinks he is. And my example was simply a way to break up using "Said" a lot, something no book I've ever read does. That said, they usually just omit it entirely, but you can't really do that early on before characters are established.\

Besides, the only important advice for Tibby right now is just to write. All this ****ty grammar/writing style crap can wait until you've actually written a story. Even the best writers have editors. And there's basically zero chance your first novel is going to be worth anything, and that's okay. It's like anything else, you have to practice, you have to write. As you go you'll figure out what works best, and you can incorporate critiques from your previous stories for your future ones.
2013-09-24, 9:58 AM #23
Originally posted by Koobie:
If you were to crit something I wrote, it'd be a different story. As it is, I find you mega-annoying. You come off as extremely arrogant with nothing (that I know of) to back up your arrogance instead of more arrogance.
Hi,

I write more in a month than you do in a year, in languages far beyond your comprehension. I've gained my skill through literally decades of near full-time practice. I've been formally educated and I've had my technique criticized by my betters. In addition to developing my own skills, I've helped others through mentorship and active instruction, which has given me hands-on experience with the pedagogical challenges of skill development.

What do you have?
2013-09-24, 10:11 AM #24
Originally posted by Jon`C:
What do you have?

He self published a book, man. You ain't got nothing on that.
2013-09-24, 1:02 PM #25
>> I'm not even half a writer, but I know enough to know that Koobie isn't nearly as good a writer as he thinks he is. And my example was simply a way to break up using "Said" a lot, something no book I've ever read does. That said, they usually just omit it entirely, but you can't really do that early on before characters are established.\

Guys, I'm not sure where any of you got the impression that I think that I'm good. I don't. But I've just been doing this for a while, so I think I picked up a few things that worked for me that I think could be useful to others.

>> I write more in a month than you do in a year, in languages far beyond your comprehension. I've gained my skill through literally decades of near full-time practice. I've been formally educated and I've had my technique criticized by my betters. In addition to developing my own skills, I've helped others through mentorship and active instruction, which has given me hands-on experience with the pedagogical challenges of skill development.

How much do I write a month, Jon'C?

Re: languages, I speak Russian, English and Hungarian. I do not speak French, but hey, I get by.

What do I have? Not much, but...

Published (2009) in Tales of World War Z and Abyss & Apex Magazine of Speculative Fiction (EVEN IN DEATH, The Chinese Chef Was a Hologram). The first one is a bona fide market, so we can count that out, but Abyss & Apex is semi-pro, got about $75, but I think I got real lucky. I edited that story a couple of weeks ago, and yeah, I got damn lucky. ;)

Apart from that, over the last couple of years I made about 2k usd doing odd copywriting jobs because I thought I'd give it a try and see if I could do it. It was fun (for zie monies) but I decided that I'd rather stick to fiction if I can.

Lots of stories, some good, some not so good, got some good feedback, some bad feedback as well, but I treat it as just something I do and try to get better at. My ego has nothing to do with it and your "I write more in a month than you in a year" excuse for being an arrogant arse towards me speaks more of you than it does of me, I think.

And I don't say that because I think I'm a better writer or anything. I've never even read your stuff.

You seem to be very good at programming (apparently), and I would not contest you there. I am not contesting you here, either. I'm just pointing out that when you assume too much, you sound like an ass.
幻術
2013-09-24, 1:04 PM #26
Originally posted by Cool Matty:
He self published a book, man. You ain't got nothing on that.


Also, I didn't self-publish a book (yet). I just wrote the 1st draft of a book. There are a few more steps to publishing it than that.
幻術
2013-09-24, 1:14 PM #27
>> I've been formally educated and I've had my technique criticized by my betters.

Re: the latter point

Here's what (a Hugo & Nebula awards-nominated writer) had to say about one of my pieces (I'd like to note that I paid him to crit it in detail because it was a contest submission; I didn't win).

“Today Before Tomorrow” is great. Certainly not far from being publishable IMO. There's a surprising amount of story and world here for 5+K words. From the opening image of the soybean farm's reflected glass, to the classic SF dilemmas about thought control and authoritarianism, to the 'you are what you hate/fear' reveal, it's all quite readable. It's also quite well-written at the sentence-and-paragraph level The characterization's perhaps a bit thin, but that's not much of a problem - every(wo)men and archetypes can staff a story of this length just fine.

Not to rub it in, or anything.

Anyway, apart from the characterization problem, the 1st draft of what I sent him didn't even have a proper ending, which I've only realized later (also with the help of someone else), so take his words with a grain of salt, but still. I know some people like the stuff I write, and that makes me happy.

Writing something that I like makes me even happier. ;)
幻術
2013-09-24, 2:19 PM #28
Originally posted by Koobie:
>>I'm not even half a writer, but I know enough to know that Koobie isn't nearly as good a writer as he thinks he is. And my example was simply a way to break up using "Said" a lot, something no book I've ever read does. That said, they usually just omit it entirely, but you can't really do that early on before characters are established.\

Guys, I'm not sure where any of you got the impression that I think that I'm good. I don't. But I've just been doing this for a while, so I think I picked up a few things that worked for me that I think could be useful to others.

>>I write more in a month than you do in a year, in languages far beyond your comprehension. I've gained my skill through literally decades of near full-time practice. I've been formally educated and I've had my technique criticized by my betters. In addition to developing my own skills, I've helped others through mentorship and active instruction, which has given me hands-on experience with the pedagogical challenges of skill development.

How much do I write a month, Jon'C?

Re: languages, I speak Russian, English and Hungarian. I do not speak French, but hey, I get by.

What do I have? Not much, but...

Published (2009) in Tales of World War Z and Abyss & Apex Magazine of Speculative Fiction (EVEN IN DEATH, The Chinese Chef Was a Hologram). The first one is a bona fide market, so we can count that out, but Abyss & Apex is semi-pro, got about $75, but I think I got real lucky. I edited that story a couple of weeks ago, and yeah, I got damn lucky. ;)

Apart from that, over the last couple of years I made about 2k usd doing odd copywriting jobs because I thought I'd give it a try and see if I could do it. It was fun (for zie monies) but I decided that I'd rather stick to fiction if I can.

Lots of stories, some good, some not so good, got some good feedback, some bad feedback as well, but I treat it as just something I do and try to get better at. My ego has nothing to do with it and your "I write more in a month than you in a year" excuse for being an arrogant arse towards me speaks more of you than it does of me, I think.

And I don't say that because I think I'm a better writer or anything. I've never even read your stuff.

You seem to be very good at programming (apparently), and I would not contest you there. I am not contesting you here, either. I'm just pointing out that when you assume too much, you sound like an ass.

Also, I didn't self-publish a book (yet). I just wrote the 1st draft of a book. There are a few more steps to publishing it than that.

>> I've been formally educated and I've had my technique criticized by my betters.

Re: the latter point

Here's what (a Hugo & Nebula awards-nominated writer) had to say about one of my pieces (I'd like to note that I paid him to crit it in detail because it was a contest submission; I didn't win).

“Today Before Tomorrow” is great. Certainly not far from being publishable IMO. There's a surprising amount of story and world here for 5+K words. From the opening image of the soybean farm's reflected glass, to the classic SF dilemmas about thought control and authoritarianism, to the 'you are what you hate/fear' reveal, it's all quite readable. It's also quite well-written at the sentence-and-paragraph level The characterization's perhaps a bit thin, but that's not much of a problem - every(wo)men and archetypes can staff a story of this length just fine.

Not to rub it in, or anything.

Anyway, apart from the characterization problem, the 1st draft of what I sent him didn't even have a proper ending, which I've only realized later (also with the help of someone else), so take his words with a grain of salt, but still. I know some people like the stuff I write, and that makes me happy.

Writing something that I like makes me even happier. ;)


that's a whole lotta words for "nothing, also I am a hypocrite and don't understand any of this". you might want to tighten up your prose a bit.
2013-09-24, 2:26 PM #29
You asked, I answered.

How am I a hypocrite?

Also, you forgot to answer my question about how much I write a month. ;)
幻術
2013-09-24, 2:30 PM #30
Originally posted by Jon`C:
I am a hypocrite and don't understand any of this


Quoted for Great Justice.
幻術
2013-09-24, 2:50 PM #31
Originally posted by Koobie:
How am I a hypocrite?


"You come off as extremely arrogant with nothing (that I know of) to back up your arrogance instead of more arrogance."
-
"when you assume too much, you sound like an ass."

Quote:
Also, you forgot to answer my question about how much I write a month. ;)
Unless you're grinding out a full-length novel every month I'm pretty sure I'm just a lil bit more prolific in my craft than you are.

Originally posted by Koobie:
Quoted for Great Justice.
Cool story, bro.
2013-09-24, 3:16 PM #32
I mean, basically you're itt telling a beginner to follow a straight-up prescriptive approach in a vacuum of context, to seek criticism from anonymous peers without developing the tools to appropriately weigh that criticism, and to perform mindless mechanical drills. This all stinks of someone who is operating largely on subconscious understanding, just barely too far removed from a neophyte to remember or appreciate the major problems learners face, while still being years away from an understanding at a level which lets you clearly articulate the nature of the work and instruct others in how to do it.

This is why your advice is terrible and why I commented on it.

The part you seem to be missing here is that I'm not calling you a ****ty writer; I'm calling you a ****ty educator.
2013-09-24, 3:43 PM #33
>>I mean, basically you're itt telling a beginner to follow a straight-up prescriptive approach in a vacuum of context

Ok, DISCLAIMER: I can only say what worked for me. Try it at your own risk.

>>to seek criticism from anonymous peers without developing the tools to appropriately weigh that criticism,

A Writer's Group might work better, but finding a local one that is good is much harder than joining one online. The resources I've quoted were helpful to me at one point or another.

>>and to perform mindless mechanical drills.

I've explained why I think transcribing is good; you notice things you might have overlooked. You do this so you can get a better feel for how that writer writes.

>>This all stinks of someone who is operating largely on subconscious understanding, just barely too far removed from a neophyte to remember or appreciate the major problems learners face,

Yes, perhaps I didn't take Creative Writing in school; this does not mean sharing what I think is helpful is worthless. If somebody wants me to explain why I think something is amateurish, I will. If somebody wants to find out for themselves, they will. If any of of it helps Tibby or somebody else, all the better.

>>while still being years away from an understanding at a level which lets you clearly articulate the nature of the work and instruct others in how to do it.

Your opinion is wrong.

>>This is why your advice is terrible and why I commented on it.

Jon'C, if my advise is so worthless, would you mind explaining to me why my advise corresponds to that of many authors who are much more experienced than me?

>>The part you seem to be missing here is that I'm not calling you a ****ty writer; I'm calling you a ****ty educator.

The part you seem to be missing here is that I wouldn't care if you'd call me a ****ty writer. What I do care about is that I, just like you, think that you don't possess the necessary experience / tool set to talk about this subject with the level of authority that you appear to have bestowed upon yourself.

This is evidenced by you posting a link to a site that says that The Elements of Style is a waste of time, basically. Yeah, right. Cool story, bro.
幻術
2013-09-24, 3:47 PM #34
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Unless you're grinding out a full-length novel every month I'm pretty sure I'm just a lil bit more prolific in my craft than you are.


And I congratulate you. Writing 60k+ words every month is pretty nuts. As long as each novel is better than the last, in a few years you might be going places. ;)
幻術
2013-09-24, 3:51 PM #35
Originally posted by Jon`C:
"You come off as extremely arrogant with nothing (that I know of) to back up your arrogance instead of more arrogance."
-
"when you assume too much, you sound like an ass."


Find me an example itt where I assumed anything.

I can't, but I might be biased.

In a few years, you might be going places doesn't count.
幻術
2013-09-24, 5:09 PM #36
Originally posted by Koobie:
I would also recommend to write short stories after you finish your current project. They will allow you to practice writing beginnings, middles & ends, help define your voice, style, etc. And they're a heck lot of fun. Get & read a copy of The Elements of Style and other writing books. I can recommend a couple I really liked if you want when I get home.

The way I ended up doing this each chapter is it's own self contained story that's part of the whole, which will change in the second draft but i've been able to experiment with multiple perspectives and the passing of time.

well now to read this thread, I'm gonna need some hard liquor for this
2013-09-24, 5:34 PM #37
Just tell a story. To hell with grammar and spelling. Like others have said, just put the story down. I'm not telling you that grammar, sentence structure and so forth aren't important because they are as far as a polished work goes. What I'm saying is that all of those details are secondary to the tale. Read some Charles Bukowski. He's beloved. He also has a tenuous grasp on spelling, capitalization, punctuation, etc.

Also I can't believe I'm offering you advice. I still hate you.

I hate Koobie more.
TAKES HINTS JUST FINE, STILL DOESN'T CARE
2013-09-24, 5:38 PM #38
-_-
幻術
2013-09-24, 6:17 PM #39
I ignored half the posts, thanks for starting a mudslinging match just as I was starting the enjoy the spirit of coming together as a community in a nice way to help me with my thing.
I've also taken note of how dialogue is done in Discworld, and other works, and am starting to work with the idea of dropping who said what and going line by line. This obviously only works with two characters but it does look and read a little cleaner, it's hard to use but I think I can grasp it.
Five people debating with separate motivations is ****in' hard no matter how I try it.
2013-09-24, 6:27 PM #40
1+1=5
幻術
12

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