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View Full Version : Editing for JO: how much?



MonkeyBoy
04-04-2002, 03:49 AM
Heya peepz!

Just wanted to know how much of JO we will be able to edit. Just say yes or no to this list...
singlepayer full new campaign(including cutscenes, ...) weapons new game modes and mp mods new force powers new models (player and object) add yours here


Thank y0o,
MonkeyBoy

GhostOfYoda
04-04-2002, 03:56 AM
According to what I've heard so far :

yes
yes
yes
yes
maybe (force powers)
yes
DM ph00! :P

Xeph
04-04-2002, 06:21 AM
yesyesyesyesyesyes. It's all do-able.

MonkeyBoy
04-04-2002, 07:16 AM
You sure? Because I heard that the code for JO is kinda weak...

DarkSkywalker
04-04-2002, 08:30 AM
if you can do all of that with jk, then you can do it with JO im sure...

Hell Raiser
04-04-2002, 10:24 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MonkeyBoy:
You sure? Because I heard that the code for JO is kinda weak...</font>

So the code for Quake3 is kinda weak? http://forums.massassi.net/html/tongue.gif

Once the MP SDK is released, anything will be possible, from new force powers to Co-op single player missions. http://forums.massassi.net/html/smile.gif

Tracer
04-04-2002, 01:57 PM
You should be able to do just about anything in mp - sp is a different story, however.

Admiral Mouse
04-04-2002, 02:06 PM
If you're prepared to take it to the limit then you'll just about be able to create a whole new game.

MonkeyBoy
04-04-2002, 11:03 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So the code for Quake3 is kinda weak?
</font>

1-Please don't treat me like a n00b
2-I heard they're not gonna release the full code, but just some scripting language called Icarus2. Read about it here:http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=475542983fc30cfe2d1d071d9c11f0fd&threadid=32906 (be sure to read ChangKhans reply)



[This message has been edited by MonkeyBoy (edited April 04, 2002).]

MonkeyBoy
04-06-2002, 10:36 AM
The content of the link I just gave (part of post on JK2.net):

Fardreamer:

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I'm a pretty experienced JK modder, and I feel I will have a great desire to mod for JO as well, so recently I have been looking into the ICARUS scripting system of Elite Force, knowing that JK2 will feature ICARUS2. I must say that on the whole I was very disappointed.

While ICARUS does include several nifty features that were sorely lacked in JK, like #includes and camera functions, the ammount of control over the game through scripts is minimal. Scripts can be used only as event handlers within levels - primarily playing cutscenes or modifying NPC actions. Weapons, items and user input, on the other hand, were not handled by the scripts and hence were unmodifiable. The result is that there is very little one can do as far as mods are concerned - the only way to change anything is to add a script to a level. COGScript, on the other hand, was very versatile, and included libraries for controlling all weapon, item, Force power, NPC, player, architecture, cutscene, and even game mode aspects of the game. COG wins hands down on this one.

On to syntax and format. ICARUS has very primitive syntax: few operators (functions are used instead - even for declaring variables!), no end of line operator, rem-style comments, and other stuff I can't remember. These really impair script readability, even though they are not all that important. COG, on the other, sported C-style syntax, complete with // comments. Much easier to read. Score another one for COG.

Now to the real limitations of ICARUS. I'll start with format issues: no function declaration. No 'for' or 'while' loops. No array support. No switch statements. And general issues: No way to directly control entities other than the one running the script. No way to pass parameters from script to script, and very primitive methods of communicating between scripts. No control over weapons, items, etc. (already mentioned). No control over menus and HUDs. No control over user input and player actions. I can go on and on.

To conclude, the ICARUS script system might have been all the developers needed to make Elite Force, but it leaves no room for modifications, modifications that can greatly increase a game's replayability. As an experienced cogger, I can definately say that it is far from enough to make even one playable weapon pack. COG script could've been better, had it included more control over menus HUDs and game physics, but it is definately a much more efficient scripting language than ICARUS. All I can do is hope that ICARUS2 will resemble COG a lot more, and leave an opportunity for people like myself to contribute to the community.
</font>

Blackdragon:

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I for one will be a little disappointed that Raven is likely *not* to release an SDK for SP. One of the greatest things about the JK modding community was the huge amount of add-ons you could get. Half-life and Quake 2 also didn't suffer from having a single player SDK released. (For that matter, nor did Deus Ex although the sheer complexity and planning needed to make a decent DX single player level, let alone mod, was, IMO, the reason it never took off.)

If Raven don't release an SDK for single player then that will mean the following:

* No new weapons (no Blastech pistol, double bladed lightsaber, carbonite gun or anything else)
* No new Force Powers (well actually, that all depends on ICARUS2, but I'm being pessimistic here!)
* No gameplay changes (so no drivable AT-ST &lt;plug&gt;like the one I'm building in Q3:TA &lt;/ plug&gt; )
* No new enemies with custom AI unless they're based on existing enemies
* No new entities of any sort.

It won't stop me playing it and it won't stop me attempting to make levels for it. But I think mod making for JO SP will go the way of EF and DX mod making. And as I don't have a good connection to the net, I don't play MP and have little interest in making mods for it.

Anyone (with more time on their hands than me) fancy starting a petition to Raven? You can put my name down for a start!

Dragon

(P.S. I really hope I'm wrong, but I ain't getting my hopes up!)
</font>

ChangKhan(from Raven Soft)

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ICARUS was never meant to be a QuakeC/COG type language, we decided to let the programmers program the weapons and AI and make ICARUS the tool for just scripting special case behaviors and events the AI and world objects shouldn't be hardwired to do. So, no, it's not nearly as powerful as the pseudo-C style COG and QuakeC.

So you can make new maps with all new scripted events, cinematics, storylines, effects, puzzles, etc and sounds and graphics and models, etc, etc, but you are probably not going to be making all new weapon functionality (though you can change the graphics and sounds), new AI routines (though you can do a lot with scripting) or changing how physics work or the HUD or things like that. However, you can, by both scripting with ICARUS and modifying a lot of the external data files, make an impressive amount of changes to the game, it's just not as straightforward (but confusing to non-programmers) as QuakeC/COG...

However, MP is a different story, as it doesn't use ICARUS, it uses Id's VM's and the code will (I'm presuming) be released for that and that is in C and you can do quite a bit with that.
</font>

Jipe:

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This is extremely disappointing news - singleplayer modding is essentially useless. I realize the multiplayer co-op workaround will work, but it's still disheartening to learn that moving to a much more advanced engine gives even *more* limits.. after 4.5 years we were hoping for unlimited possibilities, but I guess that's too much too ask.

I realize that developing ICARUS2 into a "lean, mean scripting machine" would add time onto a short (but effective) dev. cycle, but I still wish it had happened. It's worth being patient for one more month to enjoy the benefits for the next several years. For now, I'm torn on the decision to edit JK2. With Unreal2 approaching, people will slam even the best of JO mods for their graphics, ignoring things like gameplay (omg!!!11) and implementation. It *always* happens... and besides, UnrealScript 2.0 looks pretty flexible. We'll see what the future brings.
</font>



[This message has been edited by MonkeyBoy (edited April 06, 2002).]

lordvader
04-06-2002, 10:41 AM
You can make new weapons and force powers! Even if they didn't supply the code for weapons and force, it can be written from scratch.

Jipe
04-06-2002, 07:51 PM
I did overexaggerate - you can basically do anything in singleplayer but new weapon and force power functions, which isn't too bad. In multiplayer, there's really no limit.

Tracer
04-06-2002, 08:04 PM
I never understood what Changkhan meant by that comment about weapon functionality. What would be the point of changing the weapon models if their effects can't be altered?

Raptor386
04-06-2002, 09:00 PM
From where i see it, without a SP sdk, there be no coding for SP at all (short of scripting). You need the origional code to compile along with the stuff that your editing/adding, even if your not adding that much. You need to compile the entire game code into a DLL (with the changes you've made), then the game engine compiles it into a qvm for in game use. So no, you cannot write new components from scratch (You could, but you need the sdk to compile it). Not having an SP sdk will also limit the possibilities of making a coop mod for multi player, as reference code would be needed from SP to implement ICARUS into the MP engine, as well as npc entities and behaviors. Forgive me if I'm incorrect, but that's just what I've learned.


[This message has been edited by Raptor386 (edited April 06, 2002).]

Schnips
04-07-2002, 08:23 AM
Somebody say he's making that up please...

Raptor386
04-07-2002, 02:45 PM
I'm not making it up, look around at various quake 3 editing sites, they'll tell you that you need the origional source to make any changes to the game code.